Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[Loza03]

@PublikDomain @Voltage

I want to chime in but there isn't a good section for me to quote so this'll have to do.

 

I kind of half-agree with both here. I agree with Voltage on a lot of the realities, but I agree with the principles of Publik. As such, for weapons, I think there's still space for rebalancing.

The point that people will gravitate towards power and convenience above all else is extremely true, and as such, I feel like some of the better ways of balancing would be to play around with that. DE have already done a little towards that with the ammo nerfs way back when. One of the game's issues is that there's really no downside to using AoE except for self-stagger (which can be addressed very easily), which is due to how the game handles damage and powerful enemies, generally speaking.

Since both strong and weak standard enemies generally use the same defenses, which are (by late-game especially) universally significant enough that you can't not spend some time getting around it, this means that the approach for strong enemies is the same for weak ones. Since AoE will always be preferable for taking on lots of weak enemies, most AoE guns are gonna do just fine. Bonus points because a direct hit doing two instances of damage will help an AoE deal with damage attenuation and so forth. And on the 'AoE will always be preferable against large numbers of weak enemies', it always will be - no amount of increasing damage can change that without nerfing AoE to the ground. AoE inherently has a multiplier single-target doesn't - every enemy hit multiplies the total damage of the trigger-pull by at most the number of enemies hit. Counting fall-off it's less than that, but for the interests of demonstration, taking a single target weapon that does 200 damage and an AoE that does 50, if the AoE hits 4 enemies, it will even the DPS, and if it hits 5, it is superior.

Drawing back on the 'fantasy' note from when I was talking about abilities, the fantasy of an AoE weapon is absolutely blowing away a huge wave of bad guys. The fantasy of single-target weapons is usually some variation of 'one shot, one kill' - even if it's not one shot, if that makes sense. There are therefore two issues. The first is as previously stated - AoE typically does just as much damage to a single target as a single target weapon,  and the second is that Warframe generally doesn't have situations in which killing one guy real good has any utility or importance, with only a handful of exceptions (Disruption, mostly). This has the caveat that DE generally doesn't like single-target weapons instagibbing their boss fights, which is unlikely to change.

 

Addressing this element of the imbalance requires fixing both problems. More annoyingly, a fix requires both problems to be addressed at once. Trying to fix the first problem alone has the issue that it'll just make the damage system more complicated again with no meaningful reason why. Trying to address the second without the first (which DE seems to be doing) means that AoE  continues to chew through those tough enemies you should be wanting to pack single-target damage for.

[PublikDomain]

On 2024-09-04 at 7:04 PM, Voltage said:

For a weapon like Torid Incarnon to be valued as "really good", it needs weaker gear by comparison (and there are plenty of similar weapons that are strictly weaker). There's no way around it.

I simply do not believe that to be true. For example, if...

On 2024-09-04 at 7:04 PM, Voltage said:

people value Verglas Prime because 99% of the Sentinel weapons are worse

... then do people value Thrash Landing because the other K-Drive damage mods are worse? No. None of these mods are valuable. Other K-Drive damage mods being worse doesn't change the reality that none of them are good. One thing being better than its peers doesn't automatically make it valuable, it still needs to be able to do something useful.

The reality is that the Verglas is able to kill enemies, and that's why it's valuable. Other Sentinel weapons being unable to kill enemies doesn't affect that Verglas is able to kill enemies. And if another Sentinel weapon was able to kill enemies too, Verglas wouldn't suddenly become "bad" doing the exact same thing it was doing before.

On 2024-09-04 at 7:04 PM, Voltage said:

If the Artax had the stats of Tenet Glaxion and chained, Verglas Prime would have 0 hype around it, the Rivens wouldn't be expensive, and nobody would care

Yet we have S#&$ty, hype-less weapons added all the time that no one cares about already. It's most of them. Do you think anyone is going to get hyped for Multron Prime if it doesn't have those kinds of stats? Like, you keep suggesting that no one will care about having good weapons - but do you really think people care about all the bad weapons we already get? If something new doesn't push the bar then it's garbage fodder with 0 hype, inexpensive rivens, no one cares, and this is already the reality of the game today.

On 2024-09-04 at 7:04 PM, Voltage said:

even though in your ideal vacuum, Verglas Prime would still be "good" by the metric of "getting by" in content (which by the way is a lower and lower bar as you acquire gear as a player and DE adds more powercreep).

No, it'd be "good" by the metric of "being able to kill enemies well". Nothing has to just "get by". I've never suggested that things should just "get by". If you think that things just "getting by" is my ideal then you're simply wrong.

On 2024-09-04 at 7:04 PM, Voltage said:

People really need to realize that Warframe's greatest strength in weapon choice is mechanical gimmicks and interesting interactions.

Hey man, I fully agree. But none of that S#&$ matters if those mechanical gimmicks and interesting interactions are put on items that aren't good. You could design the coolest, most awesome, most interesting new thing to add to the game and no one will care if it isn't better than whatever lazy chaining AoE slop is currently en vogue.

If this really is Warframe's greatest strength, then shouldn't the game lean into it? Why should cool mechanical gimmicks and interesting interactions always play second fiddle in weapon choice to the boring numbers game we have today?

On 2024-09-04 at 7:04 PM, Voltage said:

Vertical progression is also not the problem here. I don't buy that. The reason it has failed in Warframe is because this playerbase can't handle the enemies scaling the way our player does. Making sure nobody is left behind is why balance is so rotten, because Warframe caters to the lowest common denominator in most content.

Of course it's the problem. Why do you think some players can't handle enemies scaling the way others do? Why do you think players are getting left behind in the first place? Because they pick bad gear and make bad builds that don't progress as vertically high as others. You could blame it all on other players being stupid, but no amount of intellect and skill can overcome a sheer cliff of vertical power difference.

Like...

On 2024-09-04 at 7:04 PM, Voltage said:

The disparity in power between different Arsenal choices isn't actually the problem

On 2024-09-04 at 7:04 PM, Voltage said:

Making sure nobody is left behind is why balance is so rotten, because Warframe caters to the lowest common denominator in most content.

If there wasn't such a disparity in power between different Arsenal choices then the lowest common denominator wouldn't be so low! People are left behind because there's such a large disparity in power. You're right that the disparity in power is a symptom of other layered issues, but it's still the symptom causing the most damage.

[PublikDomain]

18 hours ago, Loza03 said:

As such, for weapons, I think there's still space for rebalancing.

To be clear, I don't personally think weapons themselves need much in the way of stats rebalancing. Instead, I think the damage modding that dominates the weapon modding process should be reined in so A) there's a smaller range in power between top and bottom builds and B) more of your modding space and effort can be spent on non-damage things.

The reason most "bad" weapons are "bad" is only really because they have some big downsides that can only be fixed at the cost of power. (And other non-weapon systems are only "bad" because they can't scale nearly as much as weapons can). For example, the Kuva Seer has a prohibitively high zoom, high recoil, a small magazine, little reserve ammo, a low fire rate, and a long reload. The Kuva Brakk does not. So I can devote 100% of my modding efforts to making my Brakk deal more and more damage, but if I do the same for the Kuva Seer it's going to handle like crap and not be enjoyable to use. And both of these will S#&$ all over Banshee's Sound Quake no matter how much Power Strength I dump into her, because damage mods multiply and multiply and multiply and multiply and Power Strength does not.

So if we had space to address weapon issues without having to give up power then fewer weapons would actually be bad. This could come in the form of damage modding limitations, similar to how you can't equip both Point Strike and Critical Delay at the same time or to how you can't put damage mods in Exilus slots. Same ideas, just shuffled around. You'd have a smaller amount of vertical power from damage modding simply by having fewer damage mods. And with enemy EHP scaling adjusted similarly it's not like you'd be able to tell the difference anyways. Then you'd have a lot of guaranteed room in your builds to spend on things that aren't damage, damage you wouldn't need to spend those slots on in the first place. Hence, fewer "bad" weapons that can't be fixed through modding. And as a bonus, if weapons didn't vertically scale in power as much from weapon mods then they'll scale closer to things like basic damage-dealing abilities. As yet another bonus, if there were a smaller vertical scaling range then there'd be less of a difference between the heights of power and the lowest common denominator Voltage talks about. And that means fewer people getting left behind, and an easier process to balance new content to a more predictably-powerful playerbase. Then we could have content that's hard, and in that hard content some content that encourages cooperation.

There'd still be some room to do further weapon type balancing, like with AoE vs single-target, but DE's already shown that they will do this if they have to like with the AoE ammo changes. So that'd just be more of the same stuff they already do. Though I think with less raw power variance, maybe a lot easier. For a quick example, if you didn't deal millions of AoE damage then self-damage could just work. It's only because player damage is so absurdly high compared to player health that self-damage was ever a real problem in the first place.

[RichardKam]

2小时前 , PublikDomain 说:

For example, the Kuva Seer has a prohibitively high zoom, high recoil, a small magazine, little reserve ammo, a low fire rate, and a long reload. The Kuva Brakk does not. So I can devote 100% of my modding efforts to making my Brakk deal more and more damage, but if I do the same for the Kuva Seer it's going to handle like crap and not be enjoyable to use.

[dwqrf]

Il y a 4 heures, PublikDomain a dit :

So I can devote 100% of my modding efforts to making my Brakk deal more and more damage, but if I do the same for the Kuva Seer it's going to handle like crap and not be enjoyable to use.

So you mean to build a resulting weapon you want with modding, whatever the base weapon you mod ? You want to turn a Seer into a Brakk, and a Brakk into a Seer ? You'd like to be able to add enough zoom and accuracy on a Twin Grataka to make it feel like a Vectis, and on the other hand, put enough firerate and spread on a Vectis to make it feel like a machine gun ? That's not how weapons are designed. If you want a weapon fitting your preferences, there is like 500 of them. Just pick one and mod the right contextual damage increase onto it, with some rarely added utility preference.

What you are trying to do is to change weapons in something they are not.

Exactly how you are trying to change Warframe into something it's not.

 

Il y a 4 heures, PublikDomain a dit :

As yet another bonus, if there were a smaller vertical scaling range then there'd be less of a difference between the heights of power and the lowest common denominator Voltage talks about. And that means fewer people getting left behind, and an easier process to balance new content to a more predictably-powerful playerbase. Then we could have content that's hard, and in that hard content some content that encourages cooperation.

Yeah, but that's only highlighting the problem of good weapons = bad weapons. You want to balance every weapons now to the highest dps machine, let's say Torid Incarnon hitting 10 targets in level 200 SP ; Ok, that's fine, now every weapon do damage and clear hordes and kill bosses. So no weapons is bad because they all do the job. But then, people reach level 400 SP, or any new endgame content is added ; and *poof* ALL weapons are BAD. No amount of cooperation is going to make it fun with an arsenal of pea shooters, making it a slugfest, and the most bland game ever made, as you'd have not one single option to make it through.

We have now a game where our damage is beyond overkill. But that's mostly for top endgame ultra-modded weapons with deep insight of the game's mecanics ; because the bar is low. But reaching that point of damage is supposed to be made with a lot of experiments with different weapon types, trials and errors, modding fiddling, and the right obtained gear (or you know, copying builds if not understanding anything) ; and it takes hundreds of hours for normal people. It's not because you destroyed the dps meter somewhere in your progression and that everything you smartly build stomps the game that new players are having the same feelings about balance. And even people used to copy build blindly are often going to struggle with any weapons when they realized they can't build something decent on their own.

[Voltage]

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

... then do people value Thrash Landing because the other K-Drive damage mods are worse? No. None of these mods are valuable. Other K-Drive damage mods being worse doesn't change the reality that none of them are good. One thing being better than its peers doesn't automatically make it valuable, it still needs to be able to do something useful.

How do you not even notice that you're comparing something that is used to kill enemies with a vehicle for transportation. The inferior nature of a K-Drive is because they compete with the Archwing in open worlds, and Wormhole, Mach Rush, Speed and Razorwing in normal missions. K-Drives do something useful, but they are orders of magnitude slower than their competition for usage. Also, all K-Drives have the exact same stats, so within the K-Drive ecosystem, your choice doesn't matter, and if it did, there would be one way more compelling option, as we see with Itzal ever since Archwings were reduced down to a vehicle and hardly anything else. Homogenization of equipment would be like choosing which K-Drive to use. It'd essentially boil down to cosmetics once you understand things. That's incredibly dangerous for a game that boasts success on how many niche options you can create out of gear due to diverse mechanics and intricate interactions. Outliers within stat differences are part of that diversity. I personally enjoy employing the current flavors of the meta and discovering new ones to replace those old ones. Ocucor is my Maiming Strike, and that doesn't bother me.

If we want to circle around to my original point of conversation and specifically Verglas, you're essentially asking me why nobody is using Stinger. Sentinel weapons like Stinger need to exist for Sentinel weapons like Verglas (and now Prime) to feel significant. Verglas is also a great example, because it is identical in stats to the Glaxion, a sub-par beam weapon compared to its competition. Verglas is THE Sentinel weapon while having identical stats to a sub-par weapon BECAUSE of the competition in the space. That is how "good" vs "bad" works. If we never had the insane speed abilities or the Archwing introduced to the game, the addition of K-Drives would be more well-received, as the weight it has in a mission is derived from comparison.

I'm not even going to bother continuing in this thread if this is the kind of points we're going with. I came, made my point, and you can keep coping that you're going to change the game in a positive direction with this line of thinking. You can only accomplish your mission by destroying why Warframe is good, and finding a new audience to replace the current one. If you're playing Warframe to search for difficulty, you should quit and stop wasting your time. The game has always been a collectathon with easy content, experimental development ideas, and an endgame you need to make for yourself. This is why I keep asking for forced co-op content, because (in my perspective over 9 years playing) the only way the mind-numbing direction of gameplay becomes enjoyable to play in perpetuity.

I also loathe commenting on here with a person who dissects a comment one sentence at a time. Every time, and I mean every time, you lose yourself in each detail and miss the overall message of what the post was.

Again:

On 2024-09-04 at 10:04 PM, Voltage said:

I feel like you're looking at this discussion way too literally in the use of vocabulary instead of the way this game works and how it is approached by both players and developers.

Maybe I have just been playing almost daily and interacting with players on many different topics for such a long time that I've seen the reasoning for the friction this topic develops in real time, and that gives me a unique perspective on the matter.

Edited September 7 by Voltage

[4thBro]

On 2024-09-05 at 11:50 PM, PublikDomain said:

The reason most "bad" weapons are "bad" is only really because they have some big downsides that can only be fixed at the cost of power. (And other non-weapon systems are only "bad" because they can't scale nearly as much as weapons can). For example, the Kuva Seer has a prohibitively high zoom, high recoil, a small magazine, little reserve ammo, a low fire rate, and a long reload. The Kuva Brakk does not. So I can devote 100% of my modding efforts to making my Brakk deal more and more damage, but if I do the same for the Kuva Seer it's going to handle like crap and not be enjoyable to use. And both of these will S#&$ all over Banshee's Sound Quake no matter how much Power Strength I dump into her, because damage mods multiply and multiply and multiply and multiply and Power Strength does not.

 

On 2024-09-06 at 4:21 AM, dwqrf said:

So you mean to build a resulting weapon you want with modding, whatever the base weapon you mod ? You want to turn a Seer into a Brakk, and a Brakk into a Seer ? You'd like to be able to add enough zoom and accuracy on a Twin Grataka to make it feel like a Vectis, and on the other hand, put enough firerate and spread on a Vectis to make it feel like a machine gun ? That's not how weapons are designed. If you want a weapon fitting your preferences, there is like 500 of them. Just pick one and mod the right contextual damage increase onto it, with some rarely added utility preference.

What you are trying to do is to change weapons in something they are not.

Exactly how you are trying to change Warframe into something it's not.

 

Here. Allow me to straighten this out.

This is what Publik is saying:

 

--Versus--

 

The non-AoE weapon has a downside (not being AoE), and thus, we have to spend a mod slot to make this weapon able to kill more than 1 enemy at a time. The AoE weapon is allowed 8x multipliers. The non-AoE weapon is only allowed 7x.

 

This point was extremely obvious. So, naturally, what do you do?

You twist it.

 

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, 4thBro a dit :

You twist it.

I didn't know AoE weapons were the most meta to hit Eidolon's Synovas and overall any single targets ! Muy damage thanks to more mod capacity ! Learning new things everyday with @4thBro.

[4thBro]

10 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

I didn't know AoE weapons─

─Yeah nobody cares.

 

 

 

 

AoE is just one example of a weakness a gun can have, that needs to be overcompensated for at the cost of more damage multipliers.

But, naturally, you cherry-picked a single acronym out of the entirety of my post, that way you can redirect attention away from the fact that my entire post, frankly, obliterates you.

 

Your tactics are tired.

Nothing but deceit.

[dwqrf]

à l’instant, 4thBro a dit :

─Yeah nobody cares.

AoE is just one example of a weakness a gun can have, that needs to be overcompensated for at the cost of more damage multipliers.

But, naturally, you cherry-picked a single acronym out of the entirety of my post, that way you can redirect attention away from the fact that my entire post, frankly, obliterates you.

Your tactics are tired.

Nothing but deceit.

Then pick another gun. 😱

Are you tired already ? You can leave. You won't be missed 😉

[Circle_of_Psi]

Okay, this thread kinda went a little bit of the deep-end, holy hek

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Okay, this thread kinda went a little bit of the deep-end, holy hek

Every thread that exceeds page 5 ends up in the deep end. I really like these threads though. 

[XaoGarrent]

Sweaty tryhards and elitists have a million other games that cater to masochism.

You've ruined dozens if not over a hundred other games with your constant crying about things being "too easy."

Go play one of the many games your mob has already bent to your will, and leave Warframe alone.

We don't need yet another game with cyclical nerf fests and enemies that one shot the player. The entire industry caters to you, and it's time for it to stop doing that.

Games are meant to be enjoyed, not endured.

Edited September 7 by XaoGarrent

[4thBro]

24 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Sweaty tryhards and elitists have a million other games that cater to masochism.

You've ruined dozens if not over a hundred other games with your constant crying about things being "too easy."

Go play one of the many games your mob has already bent to your will, and leave Warframe alone.

We don't need yet another game with cyclical nerf fests and enemies that one shot the player. The entire industry caters to you, and it's time for it to stop doing that.

Games are meant to be enjoyed, not endured.

Every single line of dialogue here is riddled with fallacies.

 

 

You have defined yourself as a person with no intention of discussion.

 

Your goal is to minimize those that you don't agree with.

[dwqrf]

il y a 8 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

You have defined yourself as a person with no intention of discussion.

Your goal is to minimize those that you don't agree with.

Look who is projecting again.

Still waiting for you to tell us what endgame you play. I actually would love to see one of your own builds.

[XaoGarrent]

Quote

4thBro, you have done nothing but spew fallacies, project wildly, and engage in DARVO this entire thread.

The reason why you're claiming other people have strawmanned you, is because they're pushing past your pretense, and attacking what really is under it. You're not honest, and you've turned this thread into a flame war with your manipulative, dishonest behavior.

You are a walking talking example of why the developers shouldn't listen to people like you. You will say anything no matter how psychopathic to get your way, and you'll do it at everyone else's expense.

People like you ruin games when you are heard. I have watched your kind destroy MMOs. You need to be minimized, for the good of everyone else. You are the definition of a tiny, aggressive and loud minority, it's foolish to even engage with you.

Edited September 8 by XaoGarrent

[4thBro]

14 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

4thBro, you have done nothing but spew fallacies, project wildly, and engage in DARVO this entire thread.

 

Tell me.

[XaoGarrent]

Just now, 4thBro said:

 

Tell me.

You've been told.

[MrInubis]

Just now, XaoGarrent said:

You've been told.

Just block him. Its better this way, nobody likes him. Dont waste your time, he is to full of himself.

[4thBro]

I have not.

 

What you have done is declared "nuh uh."

It is now time for you to explain why.

 

Show me a fallacious statement that I have made. Show the statement. Name the fallacy. Explain why the statement is the fallacy.

[dwqrf]

il y a 3 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

What you have done is declared "nuh uh."

What about you tell us what endgame you play and show us some of your own builds ? I can't wait.

[XaoGarrent]

14 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Just block him. Its better this way, nobody likes him. Dont waste your time, he is to full of himself.

I'm aware that arguing with him is pointless, which is why I'm not actually humoring his argument. He has everyone going around in circles, and as previously mentioned, is up to his eyeballs in DARVO.

But like also previously mentioned, if these people go unopposed, they can get listened to by developers who honestly believe that they represent something larger than the tiny minority they actually are, and it 100% ruins games. So you at least need to make it clear that they aren't correct.

Basically, I'm just here to point out what he's doing, because the thing about DARVO is that once it gets called out, it stops working on everyone watching. The various fallacies he's been committing are now going to be clear as day, since he's no longer on the offensive, but the defensive. I don't even need to point the fallacies out, as I'm sure you can see them yourself.

All I need to do is point out that he's doing everything he's accusing others of. DARVO's effectiveness is on behalf of the fact that the person doing it shifts focus off of themselves and on to someone else, so simply mentioning that it's being done is enough to shut it down, assuming everyone else watching is even moderately intelligent.

It's very similar to how sealioning or various forms of fast talking operate. The goal of the kinds of tactics he's using isn't to actually win the argument or unveil some kind of greater truth, but rather to manipulate the audience and tangle up his debate opponent. It's flat earther stuff that he's doing.

The way you deal with these people is not to argue with them, because they're just going to argue in bad faith. Instead you simply crowd them out. Don't humor their arguments, just point out their DARVO, projection, etc, or other dishonest tactics repeatedly, and surround them as a group until they burn out. Because legitimately arguing with them is how they win.

Edited September 8 by XaoGarrent

[dwqrf]

il y a 4 minutes, XaoGarrent a dit :

I'm aware that arguing with him is pointless, which is why I'm not actually humoring his argument. He has everyone going around in circles, and as previously mentioned, is up to his eyeballs in DARVO.

But like also previously mentioned, if these people go unopposed, they can get listened to by developers who honestly believe that they represent something larger than the tiny minority they actually are, and it 100% ruins games. So you at least need to make it clear that they aren't correct.

Basically, I'm just here to point out what he's doing, because the thing about DARVO is that once it gets called out, it stops working on everyone watching. The various fallacies he's been committing are now going to be clear as day, since he's no longer on the offensive, but the defensive. I don't even need to point the fallacies out, as I'm sure you can see them yourself.

All I need to do is point out that he's doing everything he's accusing others of. DARVO's effectiveness is on behalf of the fact that the person doing it shifts focus off of themselves and on to someone else, so simply mentioning that it's being done is enough to shut it down, assuming everyone else watching is even moderately intelligent.

It's very similar to how sealioning or various forms of fast talking operate. The goal of the kinds of tactics he's using isn't to actually win the argument or unveil some kind of greater truth, but rather to manipulate the audience and tangle up his debate opponent. It's flat earther stuff that he's doing.

The way you deal with these people is not to argue with them, because they're just going to argue in bad faith. Instead you simply crowd them out. Don't humor their arguments, just point out their DARVO, projection, etc, or other dishonest tactics repeatedly, and surround them as a group until they burn out. Because legitimately arguing with them is how they win.

That what they do.

[XaoGarrent]

2 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

That what they do.

It's not about being nice, or being right, or doing something good, or really anything other than winning.

You can't reason with that. You can only respond in kind.

[dwqrf]

à l’instant, XaoGarrent a dit :

It's not about being nice, or being right, or doing something good, or really anything other than winning.

You can't reason with that. You can only respond in kind.

Remember we are talking to a 8 years old mind that thinks he created the Power Rangers all on his own. Here is the extent of his imagination and a great summary of his knowledge of the game :
 

Le 06/08/2024 à 05:28, 4thBro a dit :

I currently have... let's see...

Mirage, Frost, Mesa, Volt, Ember, and two Nezha loadouts fully able to handle max level enemies at high clear speeds. And they were designed to have entirely different flavors. I even have an internal lore in my head with them, because that made it more fun for me. Let me share:

Also, missing from this:

Inaros, as "The Supreme Overlord,," back when I played content that made him my go-to if my other loadouts couldn't prevail, back when I was in an overall weaker state of loadouts.

So the internal lore was a sort of dark-grim setting. The Supreme Overlord ruled over the galaxy, and he had various other forces that... enforced his will. (I also had a Banshee loadout, but I've since given up on that Frame, lol.)

The Stars are a sort of... mystical entity, actual stars that held bizarre attributes. (Nova was also the Dark Star, and had dark purple colorings, but I don't currently have a Nova loadout that I enjoy playing.)

So, the Golden Star loadout uses a lot of gold colorings, and the idea of it is destruction. I use the 4 augment and spread gigantic bleed procs to everything on screen.

The Frozen Star loadout uses a light blue coloring, and replaces the 4 with Gloom at 95% slow, giving the implication that the power of the Frozen Star is freezing everything in its vicinity.

The Red Star uses Magistar slam, also... representing destruction, so kind of an overlap there, but oh well. Even though there's anti-synergy because of the "intended bug" of enemies that got ragdolled by Ember's abilities ending up immune to slam attacks, I still have fun with it, and it's still flavorful for me because I make it rain meteors, and then I myself become one of those meteors, slamming everything around me for 50m damage. Lots of fun.

The Star-Bandit is becoming one of my favorites.

The concept is that this is a rogue type of character within the lore, whom steals some of the power of the Stars for themselves. The blue-celled shoulderpad represents the defensive nature of the Frozen Star, while the gold-burned trim of the cloak (as well as the unseen chest markings due to the screenshot) represent the Golden Star's offensive capability. And the red-orange firestep ephemera represents the Red Star, as well as the red-orange colored Grimoire that I use with Ballistic Battery on bosses that can't be 4'd. All three Stars are represented both visually and in practice with this build, and I love it.

The Old King represents the fact that Frost used to be my main Frame when I first started playing, and slowly left my favor as I played harder content and different Frames. In the lore, he was the ruler before Inaros.

I then eventually came back to a place of favoring Frost, and this was before his multiple buffs (Overguard and Biting Frost). After those said buffs, I could easily consider him the Current King, too, lol.

The Blue Death is also a rogue character, unaffiliated with whomever the current ruler is. Volt is easily my strongest setup, running Rakta and is practically immortal, along with having, most likely, the highest DPS, and undoubtedly unmatched movement. He's my "get it done" loadout, or my "flex on 'em" loadout.

I really tried so hard to give his soul a chance. But in the end, he was empty.