Line of Sight is a needless mechanic for certain warframe.

[Dynamicpug]

Line of sight is a good mechanic as it hinders AFK farmers however the problem I have is how incorrect this mechanic feels, it is one thing to put line of sight on someone like hildryn but to not put line of sight on either of the predominant afk nukers is trashy and needless, I want my hildryn pillage back and I will cry about it. Please discuss

[Venus-Venera]

vor 34 Minuten schrieb Dynamicpug:

Line of sight is a good mechanic as it hinders AFK farmers however the problem I have is how incorrect this mechanic feels, it is one thing to put line of sight on someone like hildryn but to not put line of sight on either of the predominant afk nukers is trashy and needless, I want my hildryn pillage back and I will cry about it. Please discuss

please don't spread false information. if that's your opinion, ok. but in reality their anti-afk code is so good that something like that isn't even possible. and above all, it's not worth it.

this is about reducing kills per minute. for the same reason, all good aoe weapons like bramma, kuva zarr + ogris were _embarrassingly_ ruined. (For the same reason, all good players who played long runs were banned. Because you could farm too many resources there - my claim)

anyone who says otherwise should provide an official statement from the company that it really is aimed at afk farmers. because I can work with it and check whether that is really the case. and provide PROOF that afk farming is worthwhile and there will be no ban.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Saryn is a thing, but she would be unplayable if LoS restrictions were applied. Her damage is relatively high, but still requires some sort of investment.

 

I'm not sure Pillage's LoS should be removed, it would provide too much without risk. It's a survivability tool that's also an offensive tool, camping behind walls and removing defenses while also replenishing yours is a bit much.

 

Abilities that do not have LoS requirements are usually not super overwhelming in terms of multi-role potential, although there's always the discussion about Avalanche, but it still requires you to use an augment for the defensive part to be reliable.

Dunno what other ability you'd want the LoS removed on, I could see it happen on Ember's Inferno, probably. Doubt it will tho.

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, Dynamicpug said:

to not put line of sight on either of the predominant afk nukers is trashy and needless,

My guess is that if DE could put LoS on all the old nukes, without it needing the time to further redesign the frames around this, and without enormous community uproar from people who've been using these frames for years, they'd do so.  Realistically it's easier to leave them be.

 

5 hours ago, Dynamicpug said:

I want my hildryn pillage back

It's always had LoS on the soft side.  Supposedly it's more forgiving than it was before.  But I can't tell any difference in its effectiveness, good or bad.

[ominumi]

I wish Vauban's Vortex had LoS. Would make things more forgiving. Seeing numbers without seeing enemy units is offputting.

[trst]

I'd say that every ability* should have LoS restrictions. It's the best solution for making everything consistent and preventing unbalanced outliers. And even if LoS checks themselves can be inconsistent fixing that one system, as DE has already been working on, is a better and easier fix than having to deal with the issues caused by every outlier. While things that underperform due to this should be buffed to compensate.

 

*The only exception to this should be abilities that are strictly supporting in nature. Since "support" frames are already a joke they might as well be thrown a bone in not making it a pain to actually pretend you're supporting other players. Which is already largely the case with affinity range abilities.

[Voltage]

You say this:

11 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

please don't spread false information.

Then proceed to say this:

11 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

in reality their anti-afk code is so good that something like that isn't even possible

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

This has been the case for multiple years now:

[Skoomaseller]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

You say this:

Then proceed to say this:

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

This has been the case for multiple years now:

i have lizard brain; what does this mean 

[stormy505]

3 hours ago, trst said:

I'd say that every ability* should have LoS restrictions. It's the best solution for making everything consistent and preventing unbalanced outliers. And even if LoS checks themselves can be inconsistent fixing that one system, as DE has already been working on, is a better and easier fix than having to deal with the issues caused by every outlier. While things that underperform due to this should be buffed to compensate.

 

*The only exception to this should be abilities that are strictly supporting in nature. Since "support" frames are already a joke they might as well be thrown a bone in not making it a pain to actually pretend you're supporting other players. Which is already largely the case with affinity range abilities.

What's the reasoning for the blanket LOS nerf? 

DE nerfs things based on:

1. Popularity

2. Disrupts

3. Afk/Automative

The only frame in the top 5 pickrate that really takes advantage of no LOS restrictions is volt 4 setups. But those aren't particularly strong past certain levels without armor strips. So popularity isn't the issue.

For disruptive gameplay there's one build for Nezha with his 4 augment that nukes tiles with the exception of eximus instantly. I've seen people quit cause of that one cause there's nothing to do in lower level missions. But it does fall off once eximus spawns ramp up. It was also already nerfed...

For the Afk argument. Survivability is way more of an issue creating leeches than no los restrictions on stuff. I can't think of no los restrictions making or breaking some afk build.


DE already nerfs outliers that abuse LOS restrictions. Pillage is/was an overused subsume, you can argue that the nerf to hildryn herself cause of a subsume issue is unjust but that's separate from the LOS discussion. Nezha's setup got nerfed. DE seems fine to nerf the few things that are abusing los restrictions too much already, why do a blanket change that will require significantly more dev time to buff up frames that, frankly, were fine before the blanket change.
 

[4thBro]

Oh, are we talking about the infamous "afk farmers" again? And how so many countermeasures end up ruining it for everyone else?

 

Can we go back to all Frames being invulnerable while you're in Operator? This entire mechanic makes me not play Void Cascade. I don't want to be arbitrarily punished by not being invulnerable just because a couple clowns are afraid that an "afk farmer" is gonna get some Credits and Nano Spores.

 

This sh** is utterly ridiculous.

[L3512]

1 hour ago, Skoomaseller said:

i have lizard brain; what does this mean 

Same reason that DE capped SE purchases, people have been AFK farming for years now.

[L3512]

13 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Can we go back to all Frames being invulnerable while you're in Operator? This entire mechanic makes me not play Void Cascade. I don't want to be arbitrarily punished by not being invulnerable just because a couple clowns are afraid that an "afk farmer" is gonna get some Credits and Nano Spores.

Frames were never invulnerable if they are running an ability.

[4thBro]

1 minute ago, L3512 said:

Frames were never invulnerable if they are running an ability.

Okay, so let's allow them to be.

What HONESTLY are we afraid of?

[trst]

38 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

What's the reasoning for the blanket LOS nerf? 

DE nerfs things based on:

1. Popularity

2. Disrupts

3. Afk/Automative

The only frame in the top 5 pickrate that really takes advantage of no LOS restrictions is volt 4 setups. But those aren't particularly strong past certain levels without armor strips. So popularity isn't the issue.

For disruptive gameplay there's one build for Nezha with his 4 augment that nukes tiles with the exception of eximus instantly. I've seen people quit cause of that one cause there's nothing to do in lower level missions. But it does fall off once eximus spawns ramp up. It was also already nerfed...

For the Afk argument. Survivability is way more of an issue creating leeches than no los restrictions on stuff. I can't think of no los restrictions making or breaking some afk build.


DE already nerfs outliers that abuse LOS restrictions. Pillage is/was an overused subsume, you can argue that the nerf to hildryn herself cause of a subsume issue is unjust but that's separate from the LOS discussion. Nezha's setup got nerfed. DE seems fine to nerf the few things that are abusing los restrictions too much already, why do a blanket change that will require significantly more dev time to buff up frames that, frankly, were fine before the blanket change.
 

Simplicity. LoS everything just means everything performs the same way in the same environment. Thus no abilities (nukes) get favored over others just because they let you ignore the environment itself. Thus players have a more intuitive idea of what to expect out of an ability and outliers, especially those which enable better AFK strategies, in this regard can no longer exist. It's also a reduction of work going forward as it's inevitable that many more outliers will crop up either via frame buffs, system changes, augments, and new frames.

 

Also even if DE does eventually address outliers the fact remains that if they don't deal with it within weeks of a frame's release then they take months of not years to do so. And  this pattern is problematic for multiple reasons. It creates expectations from players that this will remain unchanged thus when it eventually does you get those players feeling slighted by the change. And it pushes the meta towards such outliers which skews usage, promotes abuse of these systems, and dulls the game with the loss of diversity.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, Skoomaseller said:

i have lizard brain; what does this mean 

Go profile the people that sit in Steel Path Mot for days with their multi-million kill Tenet Envoys, Glaive Primes, and whatever the new flavor includes due to the latest accessibility settings. That doesn't even include or mention AFK Aya farms or AFK Affinity farms with specters.

[Tiltskillet]

43 minutes ago, L3512 said:

Frames were never invulnerable if they are running an ability.

Depends on the ability.  Seems like it's mostly true, but I keep seeing exceptions.   I should make a list.  Most seem innocuous, but there are some surprising ones I recall offhand, like Warding Halo, and all of Protea's abilities except her ult.

[L3512]

5 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Depends on the ability.  Seems like it's mostly true, but I keep seeing exceptions.   I should make a list.  Most seem innocuous, but there are some surprising ones I recall offhand, like Warding Halo, and all of Protea's abilities except her ult.

Well using a blanket term was a bit foolish of me when talking about Wf.

[Corvid]

6 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Depends on the ability.  Seems like it's mostly true, but I keep seeing exceptions.   I should make a list.  Most seem innocuous, but there are some surprising ones I recall offhand, like Warding Halo, and all of Protea's abilities except her ult.

I think the rule is that if it deals damage or has some other continuous benefit to the player, the frame loses its invulnerability. Warding Halo deals contact damage to enemies, so it qualifies despite being primarily a defensive ability.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Skoomaseller:

i have lizard brain; what does this mean 

that is provocative nonsense. there were and are enough people who never think and defend all the crazy laws in real life. it is no different here.

the fact is that "world record" for sp surv was streamed LIVE!

and back to my post above. so far I see 0% evidence. but it can't be any other way.

Edited August 12 by Venus-Venera

[Tsukinoki]

23 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

provide PROOF that afk farming is worthwhile and there will be no ban.

Except for all of the changes that were made to the game specifically to stop AFK farming in the past you mean, that you will conveniently ignore?

DE has specifically made a number of changes in the past that were specifically targeting AFK farming (such as adding a down timer in capture missions, or a number of changes to the dog days events, among others) and it usually comes with loud complaining on the forums and subreddit whenever this occurs of multiple ban waves related to it.

But I'm sure none of that counts, right?  I'm sure that DE still warmly embraces AFK farming even though they have done actions over and over to limit and remove it, right?

[Venus-Venera]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Tsukinoki:

Except for all of the changes that were made to the game specifically to stop AFK farming in the past you mean, that you will conveniently ignore?

DE has specifically made a number of changes in the past that were specifically targeting AFK farming (such as adding a down timer in capture missions, or a number of changes to the dog days events, among others) and it usually comes with loud complaining on the forums and subreddit whenever this occurs of multiple ban waves related to it.

But I'm sure none of that counts, right?  I'm sure that DE still warmly embraces AFK farming even though they have done actions over and over to limit and remove it, right?

I asked for proof and much more. And you neither read my post properly nor understood it, or both.

If you believe in it - I DON'T CARE! But if it's about discussion, then your claim must be followed by PROOF. Because then you can go on and talk about nonsense like the earth is flat and the sun is a lamp and God is a man with a white beard who jumps on clouds.

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, Corvid said:

I think the rule is that if it deals damage or has some other continuous benefit to the player, the frame loses its invulnerability. Warding Halo deals contact damage to enemies, so it qualifies despite being primarily a defensive ability.

Halo and the other abilities I mentioned don't disable void mode's invulnerability state. 

[Corvid]

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Halo and the other abilities I mentioned don't disable void mode's invulnerability state. 

Ah, misread your comment. Sorry.

[4thBro]

9 hours ago, Corvid said:

I think the rule is that if it deals damage or has some other continuous benefit to the player, the frame loses its invulnerability. Warding Halo deals contact damage to enemies, so it qualifies despite being primarily a defensive ability.

Right, and we can literally all unanimously agree that that's ridiculous.

Are we really afraid that people are afk farming enemies with Warding Halo's... ... ... 125 slash damage per second??? Really???

But you know what, this explains why there are some people opposed to adding an endgame to Warframe, as well, if they're still stuck in areas where 125 aoe damage per second is considered abusive enough to warrant a punish.

 

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Halo and the other abilities I mentioned don't disable void mode's invulnerability state. 

That's comforting, at least, I guess. But the premise still stands. How are people complaining about this??? You can't even be ACTUALLY afk, either. Operator doesn't have infinite energy. You have to MANUALLY kill things at 1 kill per day. The only way to actually afk for this would be to script. And that's a completely different topic and problem. If you wanna punish scripting, punish scripting. But don't punish people for using defensive abilities, FURTHER punishing people that don't shield gate spam by the way, just because you're afraid of somebody MANUALLY killing 1 enemy an hour while hiding in Operator.

 

How do we have THIS complaint in the same world where people are calling WF a "power fantasy" genre game, where you're supposed to be able to fly around and 1-shot entire rooms in the hardest content?

 

 

 

This whole topic has always been totally absurd to me. Like, mind-blowingly absurd. It would be like somebody complaining in WoW that a level 80 paladin is farming Scarlet Monastery by aggro'ing everything and then letting Retribution Aura slowly kill them.

[Tiltskillet]

54 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

But the premise still stands. How are people complaining about this???

Are people complaining about it?  I don't see it in this thread.  Although the thread is really not about it, so that's not surprising.

If I was going to articulate a complaint, it'd be along the lines of "I don't care whether we get invuln or DR, but whichever it is, can it be consistently applied? Or at least by some logic that is easier to perceive?"