We need a use for non-prime frames that have heavy investment in them.

[MrDugan]

Sevagoth prime is coming out soon.  I have 17 forma in Sevagoth.  Because he has the main frame, the shadow and the exalted weapon.  I'm not doing that again.  The prime will get ranked and then left to collect dust.  But even assuming they ever fix the outdated forma system, I still have 17 forma on Sevagoth.  Even if the prime comes with so many polarities that I don't need to forma anything (I understand this isn't going to happen.) I still have the regular frame with massive investment on it.  My Baruuk for instance, I have no need of.  There is zero reason to use him over the prime.  But he's got like 7 or 8 forma on just the frame and then several on his exalted as well.  I can't bring myself to sell him for a pittance of credits.  I have no reason to use him.  Especially with shard investment, he's not even good for alternate builds.  I'd have to spend 5 more shards to get him back close to par with the Prime.  

We need a system that honors that investment that gets invalidated by getting the prime.  I'd like to propose that any frame with a reactor and x amount of forma, like 3ish, should be able to be consumed via a helminth segment and turned into an umbra forma BP.  It provides another avenue to obtain an item that shouldn't be as rare as it is, and it lets you get at least SOMETHING out of past investment.  Because I have an ever-growing list of frames with heavy investment that I have zero use for.  They're clogging up my arsenal (arsenal favorites can't come fast enough.) and I cannot bring myself to just junk them.  Partly because of all the investment.  But also because you never know what DE is going to pull.  The second I clean them all out, here comes the thing I asked for and now they're gone.

And going back to Sevagoth, we really need a better forma system that doesn't require a frame like Sevagoth to need a forma count that equals 2 frames and a weapon.

[Fallopia]

30 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

And going back to Sevagoth, we really need a better forma system that doesn't require a frame like Sevagoth to need a forma count that equals 2 frames and a weapon.

DE marketing team will say opposite, i think :)

[Pakaku]

32 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

There is zero reason to use him over the prime. 

Use it as you work on your new toy. There is hardly any major upgrade from the base version, so you’ll barely be missing out. When you’re done working through your forma, just keep your original as some sort of momento. Or learn to let go and move on and just chuck it into the helminth

[(PSN)IdoThea]

Well like I said before in similar thread this is why I usually don't forma normal variants except Protea as she is my main and favorite.

She didn't thankfully need that many forma and I didn't install any shards on regular, but did on prime as it's hopefully final variant.

I'm lucky to have primes already out for my favorites anyway. New frames don't even interest me that much, so I usually just mastered them and fed helminth hungry boi.

 

Edited August 19 by (PSN)IdoThea

[Numerounius]

Exalted weapons visuals is one reason to use a regular frame. Admittedly, a very small reason so yeah would like some other reason to use regular frames. Just not for the reasons you listed. Not sure how you can create it while remaining neutral about everything though.

 

One reason is the 3-year lag time for the prime frame. For plenty of people this is a huge selling point. Prime frames lagging behind that much isn't unknown. Going after the new shiny toy is a common thing to do. You are knowingly putting investment into a frame that has a known prime coming out multiple years down the line so you shouldn't be shocked when the prime does come out for the frame that you invested in forma in and spent the last 3 years loving and caring for a frame that has served you well.

This whole Sevagoth prime being next situation is a discussion for different topic. But still relevant and shows you can't rely on exact dates, just luck of the draw.
 

Shard investment. I mean, DE has said these are intended to be more on the permanent side rather than temporary side. And you can still invest in such a way that allows for multiple build avenues.

 

Forma. Unless you are absolutely going ham on everything in which case you are likely funding a portion of DE's investments from plat investments anyways. You should be getting them at a rate that is naturally good enough to sustain multiple builds including saving any for new shiny toys you like in particular.

Could a crunch system work to spit back out Forma at a heavily reduced rate? Maybe, since it doesn't invalidate current systems.

But, given the system Forma has in the game right now I don't see the core systems changing, at all, really.

It is possible to dip your toes into a frame without burning a single forma to test it before kitting it out.

 

Sevagoth being forma hungry. Yeah agree with you there. The worst part is not even throwing us universal aura polarities bone. I think we are past the point of no return on this though. At best maybe they can give us the three forma for abilities adjustment?

[Drachnyn]

I'm also keeping my old non-prime frames.

[Zakkhar]

DE mentioned something about Sevagoth Prime coming with a lot of additional starting Polarities. Not sure if that solves or partly solves your conundrum.

[Vilmera]

Formas are just consumables, don't get mad

You knew that in the future there would be primed one at the moment you polarized regular one. Isn't three years enough time to prepare for its release if you like it so much?

 

Edited August 19 by Vilmera

[Star700]

Why did you invest in a non prime in the first place?

[BroDutt]

As long as DE allow Plague Star event once every two years, I don't really mind invested forma on normal prime. We reqularly did it for non prime and non Kuva/Tenet weapon.

Maybe DE can intoduced Incarnon Warframe to keep the non prime WF usable. Like the non prime weapon that had better stats after incarnon.

Edited August 19 by BroDutt

[sunderthefirmament]

8 hours ago, MrDugan said:

We need a system that honors that investment that gets invalidated by getting the prime. 

We don't need that.  The system is largely fine as is.  The problem here is how much of an outlier Sevagoth is.  I have 19 forma in him, and if I wanted to max out his claws now that Tennokai is a thing, I'd have to put another forma in him.  That's egregious. 

 

Let's compare him to Jade, a recent frame with an exalted weapon.  I've got 7 forma total in Jade (her frame + her exalted).  Even if Jade had a separate form that you modded for her 4th ability and I doubled my forma investment, Sevagoth would still be far ahead.

 

The system is largely fine, and apparently keeping DE afloat.  It's Sevagoth that's an issue.

[MrDugan]

3 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

We don't need that.  The system is largely fine as is.  The problem here is how much of an outlier Sevagoth is.  I have 19 forma in him, and if I wanted to max out his claws now that Tennokai is a thing, I'd have to put another forma in him.  That's egregious. 

 

Let's compare him to Jade, a recent frame with an exalted weapon.  I've got 7 forma total in Jade (her frame + her exalted).  Even if Jade had a separate form that you modded for her 4th ability and I doubled my forma investment, Sevagoth would still be far ahead.

 

The system is largely fine, and apparently keeping DE afloat.  It's Sevagoth that's an issue.

You're just contradicting me without supporting it.  "No, you're wrong because I'm right."  Well, no, YOU'RE wrong because I'm right.  Now we can go in circles like every other discussion here.

[TenTonneSkeleton]

Honestly, i agree with the OP in that the game would be slightly less frustrating if we could get back something from subsuming an item to the helminth as a consolation prize for the investment. Believe me, i always have forma building and use every single one. I even spend plat on forma occasionally. I don't keep old non-prime frames even if i have a lot of investment in them, but i also don't forma them to the max or often use an exilis adapter or lens.

It may be "fine" but is it the ideal? And is the frustration worth it for DE? That is to say, i can see a new player rage quitting because they put max investment into a non-prime like sevagoth just to realize that the prime is coming out. "this game is taking me for all i got!" . I think we often forget what its like to be a new player with limited resources and limited time. You may have a huge stockpile of forma, reactors, adapters, lenses etc... but they dont. they may not even have the warframe slot.

I think giving back at least one consumable when you subsume a frame wouldn't take away from the huge investment that maxing out a new frame is and ultimately contributing to DEs cash flow. Its a consolation prize and makes you feel a bit better about the situation. Ultimately, I think that is worth it for DE if that player sticks around to keep spending money on the game.

Player retention IS a big issue. Believe me, i am the leader of a large clan i see low MR players come and go constantly. Maybe the game just wasn't for them, or maybe the game just broke them. Too many frustrations, too much investment, too much confusion.

I also think you should be able to subsume weapons the same way for the same reasons.

 

When you subsume a frame I think you should have the option of getting ONE of the following:

1 Umbra Forma if that frame had one

1 Aura Forma

1 Regular Forma for each item that can be separately forma-ed. For example you'd get 3 for titania, 3 for sevagoth, 2 for mesa, etc...

1 Exilis Adapter

1 Reactor

1 Focus Lens

 

Also, the game really should automatically remove any shards you have on that frame. Why not? Who is this hurting? Just a QOL improvement that keeps players from rage quitting. Punishing a player for ignorance or forgetfulness doesn't seem to be in DEs favor. Just a popup that says "archon shards have been returned to your inventory"

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19 by TenTonneSkeleton

[Birdframe_Prime]

Ooh, this one's coming up a lot... Let's see if we can get to 10 threads on the different parts of the Forums! /s

As has been mentioned in multiple other places, and even by the Devs in passing;

Forma is a Cost for a build, not an Investment.

Difference being you're supposed to get a return (or a loss) for an Investment, while you get something you pay for with a Cost.

You are buying a specific build for your frame that grants a specified amount of mod capacity if modded correctly, you are not investing in that frame for a better return. Since there is no trade-in system for gear that you've levelled and applied Forma on, there's literally no way to get a return on the cost you've paid.

Not an investment.

Just a cost.

Now you have to pay the cost on the new model.

[TenTonneSkeleton]

17 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Now you have to pay the cost on the new model.

I ultimately don't think that's a healthy game model. But no one is expecting to get back their 19 forma for sevagoth. Just a consolation prize would be enough. That's hardly a return on investment. Its a feel better mechanic. I firmly don't believe it would hurt DEs bottom line to implement a feature like this. In fact, i think player retention would actually be more of a benefit in the long run.

I've noticed its usually newer players that complain about this issue and the veterans that say "this is the way it is, live with it" I just think if there are that many threads being brought up, it something that affects peoples enjoyment of the game and ultimately if they stick around for the long haul.

Also i would like to add that this could influence someone desicion to even buy the new prime or prime accessories, or even engage in farming sevagoth for that matter. A lot of people don't care about MR and thats probably for a good reason. Arguably this hurts DEs bottom line WAY more than not getting cash for some forma. A forma 3pack justs costs 35p which can easily be farmed without spending a dime. Even if you do buy that, its literally almost nothing.

Edited August 19 by TenTonneSkeleton

[Tiltskillet]

3 minutes ago, TenTonneSkeleton said:

Also, the game really should automatically remove any shards you have on that frame. Why not? Who is this hurting? Just a QOL improvement that keeps players from rage quitting. Punishing a player for ignorance or forgetfulness doesn't seem to be in DEs favor. Just a popup that says "archon shards have been returned to your inventory"

There is an archon shard warning before selling or feeding frames to helminth.  But I agree it would be great to just have these automatically returned.  Having to remove the shards first is just an extra annoying step, as well as rubbing player noses in the bile cost even a little more than it normally does.

 

 

[TenTonneSkeleton]

please delete

Edited August 19 by TenTonneSkeleton
duplicate post

[sunderthefirmament]

2 hours ago, MrDugan said:

You're just contradicting me without supporting it.  "No, you're wrong because I'm right."  Well, no, YOU'RE wrong because I'm right.  Now we can go in circles like every other discussion here.

Sorry, I didn't mean any disrespect.  You're entitled to your opinion, and I honestly wouldn't be mad if DE implemented your suggestion.  No hostility intended!  My main reason for not requesting a similar feature is that this is a F2P game, and forma bundles apparently keep the lights on for DE.  I don't know the details of this of course, as I'm just a player.  But they haven't budged on any similar requests, so I don't see this as very likely.

 

I think the real issue here, as I've already said, is how egregious the forma cost for Sevagoth is.  He's the reason we've seen more and more similar threads popping up.

[MrDugan]

5 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Sorry, I didn't mean any disrespect.  You're entitled to your opinion, and I honestly wouldn't be mad if DE implemented your suggestion.  No hostility intended!  My main reason for not requesting a similar feature is that this is a F2P game, and forma bundles apparently keep the lights on for DE.  I don't know the details of this of course, as I'm just a player.  But they haven't budged on any similar requests, so I don't see this as very likely.

 

I think the real issue here, as I've already said, is how egregious the forma cost for Sevagoth is.  He's the reason we've seen more and more similar threads popping up.

The thing is, outliers like sevagoth excluded, a point system would likely sell more forma.  If it's not restricted by a single polarity, youd have people like me formaing every slot for modularity on different loadouts.  I'm not even suggesting that the points apply to exalted weapons from frame forma.  Just something sevagoths alt form also getting those points.  And I'm suggesting a single umbra forma BP for an old frame.  A BP takes forma to build.  DE sells a forma, we get return on investment, everyone gets better modularity and no one has a reason to limit how much they forma a frame because you wouldn't restrict one mod loadout because of polarities on another.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, TenTonneSkeleton said:

But no one is expecting to get back their 19 forma for sevagoth.

I would check a few of the other threads, historically, around the point when Prime frames are getting released, going back... oooh... a nearly a decade.

It was worse when DE didn't let you move polarities around after applying the first Forma, because then if you wanted to re-organise a weapon for a different Elemental combo you would sometimes have to spend an extra three Forma to do it. Heck, I still have my Ember Prime from back then and she's got five extra Forma she didn't actually need in the long run.

My point being that, yeah, unfortunately there are players literally asking for their Forma back. Especially when they've used Umbral Forma.

As for the thread, my over-arching point is this:

We aren't just dealing with it because it is what it is. We're dealing with it because we already fought these battles years ago, and DE gave us their answer to it.

The goal of the Devs in this situation is actually not to be as player friendly as the players think they should be. They're being fairly friendly in many aspects, but anyone asking for things like changing the Forma system just isn't getting why it exists in the first place, and why it has continued to exist in this form for approximately seven years (since the last mod layout rework).

What the Devs want out of the player is consistency. Not long play hours, just... repeat play. Day after day, week after week, all year long and into the next. They don't want you spending five hours an evening in here twice a week, or on the weekend, they want an hour, every day. And that's why they aren't going to change the Forma system, because it's really, really good at getting players to do the same short grind every. single. day.

Or pay. That's the other way players can go.

And if players would rather Trade than Pay, that's good too, because it gets the players that do Pay to go back and Pay again sooner than they otherwise would.

Of course Sevagoth is going to come with more Polarities to ease the Forma cost on him, but... in no way would they ever, ever count Forma as an 'investment' in the original frame. 

That simply doesn't work with the model they have that has gained them so much money they can afford to spend tens of thousands on their own convention, donate tens of thousands to charity every year, fund a second game, farm out their game engine... be worth enough to have heavy investment from the arms of the Chinese...

We know this, after the ten years of them making changes, or not, in line with their strategy.

So we fight the battles that can still be fought ^^

[TenTonneSkeleton]

3 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

That simply doesn't work with the model they have that has gained them so much money they can afford to spend tens of thousands on their own convention, donate tens of thousands to charity every year, fund a second game, farm out their game engine... be worth enough to have heavy investment from the arms of the Chinese...

Thanks for taking the time to write a respectful reply with good points.

While i understand the argument, i do think things are beginning to shift in baby steps. I like to think we are moving away from the "gotcha" mechanic of old into a more sustainable player friendly game design.

There have been more recent changes in a player friendly direction: Forma, catalysts, reactors, and weapon slots from nightwave, kuva is MUCH easier to get than it used to be while the kuva spent on rolling was also capped, amor and damage rework made a lot of warframes and weapons more viable with build diversity, and probably several other things im forgetting about

And most recently, the silver forma reward on relics will now be awarding TWO bps instead of just one. This is actually huge and tells me DE is looking at the game differently.

So i have hope that DE is continuing to listen to player feedback in this regard and making small moves toward a more player friendly experience.

 

Ultimately, i would much rather see DE address warframe and weapon slots before they make any forma changes as i see that to be a much larger glaring issue in terms of player retention.

[Birdframe_Prime]

20 minutes ago, TenTonneSkeleton said:

And most recently, the silver forma reward on relics will now be awarding TWO bps instead of just one. This is actually huge and tells me DE is looking at the game differently.

Oh yeah, that's a big one, for sure.

Just think about it, though, it's taken DE... y'know... approximately the entire run of Warframe since the inception of Forma to even consider having Forma drop in an amount more than 1 from anything except the now-defunct Alerts.

And, when you actually think about it further, what does that even change? You still have to build it once per day, you still have to log in to level up your frame, you still have to expend it on use for a build.

DE have been on record saying that they don't want players 'future proofing' their Warframes or weapons (which is what the OP is suggesting with their system), specifically so that when DE release a new set of mods, then players will have to re-Forma if they want to use them. Most of the time. Sometimes players are able to actually future-proof a little and leave space for new mods ahead of time, like new Augments and so on.

They've been on record saying they'd rather a player farm and Forma a whole new Warframe than change the system to allow for the kind of flexibility of build that is being proposed here.

Nothing in the thread suggested by OP is actually new... If it was, I might be more inclined to side with OP on the matter.

A shame, really ^^

[Zakkhar]

14 hours ago, Star700 said:

Why did you invest in a non prime in the first place?

Sevagoth was released 3,5 year ago.

Quote

Release Date: April 13th, 2021

Obviously he invested in order to use it over all that time as his main Warframe,

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Difference being you're supposed to get a return (or a loss) for an Investment, while you get something you pay for with a Cost.

You get a return. Fun from playing finished build all this time.

[Birdframe_Prime]

19 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

You get a return. Fun from playing finished build all this time.

That's... the product. You paid for it, you got the product.

Think of it as any other item you can buy items for, like a car. The second you buy the car and drive it off the lot, it loses value. You can add some value by purchasing upgrades for the car, like engine parts, overhauls, special treatments that make it sound different or look different or even perform differently.

But also imagine that you can never sell that car on to anyone ever again. For all the good times and fun you have driving it, you won't get more money out of it, as it can't be sold on. It cost something and you got the product you paid for, but it won't make a return so it cannot be an investment.

See? I mean, that's the point I made originally. Forma is a cost because you get what you pay for, and not an investment because you don't get a return.

It's an essential shift in how a person thinks about things like Forma and the Warframes they go into, and it can actually benefit a player by thinking of it that way. If they are starting their train of thought with 'This is a cost I'm paying', then they may actually think a little more before paying it, and they won't be as unhappy about a new version coming out that will essentially replace the thing they already paid for.

But hey, that's just not as likely to happen as it should be.

[Voltage]

Honestly, I never understood these kinds of topics. Sevagoth (like any Prime Warframe) has been out several years before their Prime Access, and there is nothing invalidated by you upgrading. You're not forced to lose or sell the non-Prime variant, and it remains for your arsenal collection and build diversity without requiring a second Prime to be crafted. 

On 2024-08-18 at 11:24 PM, MrDugan said:

I'd like to propose that any frame with a reactor and x amount of forma, like 3ish, should be able to be consumed via a helminth segment and turned into an umbra forma BP.  It provides another avenue to obtain an item that shouldn't be as rare as it is, and it lets you get at least SOMETHING out of past investment.  Because I have an ever-growing list of frames with heavy investment that I have zero use for.  They're clogging up my arsenal (arsenal favorites can't come fast enough.) and I cannot bring myself to just junk them.  Partly because of all the investment.  But also because you never know what DE is going to pull.  The second I clean them all out, here comes the thing I asked for and now they're gone.

Your suggestion is highly abusable. This would make Iliad (The Sergeant) an Umbra Forma farm and completely undermine the point of the Forma type. I understand where you are coming from with this suggestion, but you don't lose anything by keeping these copies for more build options and general arsenal collection. This is all in your head with "clog". Warframe has an infinite inventory. Sure, Warframe and Weapon slots do cost a couple Platinum, but you are not forced or limited to sell off Warframes as Primes release. You may not use the non-Prime much, if at all, but there's no reason for you to feel the need to discard something you heavily invested in and used for a long time, especially when 20 Platinum for another slot takes no time at all to farm.

On 2024-08-19 at 2:39 PM, TenTonneSkeleton said:

And most recently, the silver forma reward on relics will now be awarding TWO bps instead of just one. This is actually huge and tells me DE is looking at the game differently.

Had someone not spent $1000 CAD to specifically ask this, and this not be an extremely easy "pro-player" win after Heirloom problems and other egregious mistakes, we would not have had the Forma change in Relics. If you want to really look at how DE is looking at the game, look at the Damage/Status rework watering everything down to the point where nothing matters, Damage Attenuation, heavily time-gated content like The Circuit, Archon Hunts, Netracells, and Elite Archimedea, Void Sling, predatory Supporter Packs, and a 10 year anniversary celebrated by a second Founders package. I'm really tired of hearing this community sentiment about this "before" and "after" as if the game was heading in the wrong direction prior. Plenty of good and bad decisions have been made over time, and the only thing that hasn't changed between creative directives is not properly learning from previous mistakes.

On 2024-08-19 at 3:07 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

DE have been on record saying that they don't want players 'future proofing' their Warframes or weapons (which is what the OP is suggesting with their system), specifically so that when DE release a new set of mods, then players will have to re-Forma if they want to use them. Most of the time. Sometimes players are able to actually future-proof a little and leave space for new mods ahead of time, like new Augments and so on.

They've been on record saying they'd rather a player farm and Forma a whole new Warframe than change the system to allow for the kind of flexibility of build that is being proposed here.

Good. People use the word "build flexibility" to mask their true desire of "I want to Forma a certain number of times and then never have to touch it again or think much about my polarities in the future". People don't complain about "build flexibility" on adversary weapons, they just complain about the cost, because they've already been handed the future-proofing of flexibility, so the only thing left to do is ask for that to be even cheaper/easier to reach. Warframe builds have reached a point so powercrept that these sorts of suggestions would just lead you to an even more stale end-game as Warframe's life-blood is collection of new equipment.

I get that many players in the early and mid-game may have an issue with how Forma and modding works, but part of this comes from DE's continuous push for accessibility to content. Players being greenlit to fly through most content without much need to slow down and examine gear building creates a hollow experience out of Forma and builds to be quite honest. When I was new to the game, before The Second Dream released, I was encouraged to amass equipment by the game, but I was also encouraged to slow down at every specific farm I was approaching and create key builds for specific farms to aid me on my journey (because trying to farm materials, xp, and key missions without competent builds quickly became a punishing experience). That included Nekros and Hydroid for basic materials, Mesa and Saryn for killing large groups of enemies, EV, Balanced, and Blessing Trinity for support, CC Warframes for missions like interception, Frost Prime for excavation, etc. In that sense, I was rewarded for building out my arsenal with what missions I had access to, and the value I was adding to squads with varying builds as I progressed through more content. These days, that list is heavily condensed due to Warframes like Khora or Dante, Helminth condensing this further.

This dynamic encourages players to ignore many options as cumbersome and overlook the depth of builds due to the access presented to things that bypass all of that. If I can reach the latest content with mediocre mods and a Warframe like Revenant or Dante, why would I bother getting into builds and valuing Forma as long-term gear progression? To me, Forma feels like an evolutionary goal to my gear. To many players, Forma is an inconvenience and unnecessary in many cases. Players aren't going to value Forma and work on their builds if they're rewarded with efficiency for ignoring most of that system. 

The reception of Duviri and Archimedea loadout randomization is proof with how many players have their comfort zone set at the Mastery Experience equivalence as Mastery Rank 5. Undermining Forma and the choices and consequences of specific polarity and modding decisions in a direction so that players can "have their cake and eat it too" further strays Warframe away from some of its core pillars that made it the success it is now. We already have massive underlying problems with how unnecessary and lacking co-op play is, Damage/Status powercreep that has corroded the point of important build decisions, and other large fundamental issues to figure out.

In terms of this specific topic, your reward for your many Forma'd Sevagoth is keeping it for later. If you don't want it, you can sell it for the slot. I don't understand why you feel like you require some compensation for a Warframe several years old that you invested about ~200 Platinum in Forma (or 3 weeks of crafting) and a couple of hours leveling. It's not like you've used items into base Sevagoth that are worth hundreds or even thousands of Platinum that are extremely finite and worth a fortune like some other MMO consumables. This is Warframe. The most expensive consumables are only worth about 50 Platinum, or are only required in very small amounts meaning you'll have too many soon enough (such as Umbra Forma).