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Dev Workshop: Koumei & the Five Fates - Caliban + Nova Rework


[DE]Sam
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20 hours ago, UlyssesTheDM said:

I think that Sevagoth just needs overhauled, especially his Shadow, because for a melee-based frame he is not tanky at all. If DE gave him 300-350 base armor, then he would be good because the healing from Gloom would be able to keep up with proper modding.

Gloom is mostly for CC. The lifesteal is just an added bonus. Shield gating on Sevagoth Prime is stronger anyway and going into Shadow form gives spawn I-frames now. Toggling between the two forms regularly gives permanent uptime for tanking infinite damage. Survivability is NOT his issue at the moment since they fixed him on his prime release. Use casting speed archon shards to decrease the time spent in the spawn animation, and you have about 5-6 seconds of spamming melee before you go back to base form and refill the soul well while you shield gate. 
Now health tanking in general could use an overhaul, but Sevagoth himself is not in any need of it with near infinite I-frames and shield gating as they are.

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10 hours ago, sXeth said:


Never did compare Arcane Guardian to Calibans passive so idk where you got that from. Also thats not what exponential means,  but that’s all a side tangent. If you’d rather stick to mods then yeah Excaliburs passive is unsurprisingly weaker then Primed Pressure Point. Equinox is weaker then Equilibrium. I’d have to double check on  Mirage vs whatever the relevant parkour speed mod is. Ash is only slightly over 20% of a Elementalist mod (and only for Slash). Saryn is 1/4 of a status duration mod. 

Anyhow, counterpoint.

Its a passive, Adaptation is an entire mod slot and kind of a pricey one at 12 capacity. Adaptation is probably more generally better (although Caliban notably does big area CC with his 2 and one of the summons is specifically getting a taunt/decoy upgrade, so you should be receiving very little damage coming in of any kind. But you’re comparing a 0 investment freebie with a 12 capacity mod slot.

It is quite simply not meant to compete with Adaptation. It fills in a nice minor boost to survivability for anyone not running Adaptation (to which there are many reasons you might not, mod space being the obvious front runner).

I do agree that it probably shouldn't be as strong as adaptation, but it needs to he stronger than what it currently is now. Because for the time being, it's rubbish against any damage proc that actually matters.

 

Heat, slash, and toxin status effects are going to utterly destroy you in higher levels before you can even get the benefit of the full DR. I think the passive should cap at 75 or 80%. Less than Adaptation, but good enough to work. And the ramp up timer for higher DR percentage needs to be faster. By the second tic of slash or heat, Caliban should already have 40 or 50% DR. I think that's fair. 

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Reading this for the first time since I didn't watch the TGS stream, multiple frame changes sounds exciting, lets see what DE has done!

 

Caliban

mane-im-dead.gif

Razor Gyre is still a thing, I thought it was just a rumour and that it'd be replaced for something new.
Sure, it now heals and can restore shields besides even replenishing energy, and applying Dante's Paragrimm's effect (more on that later), but it's still a very mediocre ability that is simply, unuseful for anything, moreover since the only saving grace it could have had, or more like restriction so people didn't helminth it off the frame, was dealing Tau status.

It will still be helminthed off for absolutely anything else, like Nourish to buff his sentients which was a common strategy, and what's worse, if this works as I'll theorise in a minute, it only has made Nourish an even better option for Caliban.
 

Sentient Wrath is all I could have ever asked it to be. My only ever complaint was the it made enemies impossible to hit and removed the effect when we struck them, even though people told me "I'm sure it doesn't remove the effect", but Pablo himself confirmed that. Having no enemy cap now, is, amazing honestly, not a buff I think it needed for 18 or more enemies on a single cast was always more than enough with my build, but now it'll just, be amazing!

10/10 change here, overcame my expectations! But, it also happens to be Caliban's helminth ability, which means it's a much better buff for other frames as well, such as Atlas for example who lost his ability to root enemies with Jade Shadows which has led to them going flying everywhere whenever you land-slide an uppercut. I hope now I can keep them right where they should be with this, solving another frame's issue with something that isn't theirs, feels unfair.
 

Lethal Progeny has received a much needed QoL upgrade by letting us summon all sentients simultaneously which means it'll be 66% cheaper to upkeep, and now it lets us recast it while active to resummon our sentients... I'm not feeling it.
The passive shield regen is now tied to an specific sentient type, the Summulyst's Choralysts, which will also be shared with nearby allies, and that is almost good as it was a feature I always wanted them to have, but the Conculysts.
Sure, they'll instantly regen if they are killed, granted the Summulyst is still alive, which if they are as resilient as they usually can get, shouldn't be an issue, but as far as I've seen, sentients still follow the same scaling formula: Power Strength rather than enemy level.

Even if the Conculysts now deal a lot more damage, their survivability was the most worrying part, as you could cast all three of them just so they died in a matter of seconds. Sure, now it'll be cheaper to pay for a replacement, but they also lost the main important part which was the shield regen, and they won't deal good damage unless you remove defences, but I'll talk about that once I get to Fusion Strike. It's also worth noting that spinning more may result on worse results due to the 'hurricane' attack making them slower.

True they'll also serve as Fusion Strike catalysers making each their own at our aiming point, but that just feels sorta forced. Fusion Strike's damage was never good enough to be used as a damaging tool, now giving it more damage and even more damage when using one of the variants of another ability, may be better, still forced.

The star of the show here however are the Ortholysts. By removing Razor Gyre and adding in Nourish, I picture their mortars and overall attacks will let them prime enemies with both Tau and Viral from a distance, pair that with no downtime by getting stuck on some Fusion Strike copycat animation, they'll serve as a great support to the team. Just with some quick math, if they will be dealing x10 damage when inflicting Tau damage which all of them do, and also having the 325% damage to health vulnerability to health of Viral, it seems quite clear the Ortholyst win the contest by providing not only free AoE priming but also a distraction, and possibly even better damage output than the Conculysts.
 

Fusion Strike then. Why?
Why take away the thing that made Caliban's gameplay logical? The idea with Caliban, although never worth in practice, was to set up an area with Fusion Strike which would be your "arena" or "arenas" since you could cast two of them, where you'd CC and increase the damage enemies take with Sentient Wrath, and then your Conculyst would go ham on them.

Would have been nice if it was as effective and fun as one can make it sound but it was not. Now, we have no AoE defence strip which was, basically the only good thing Caliban had. This is a vicious loop, now we'll have to cast Fusion Strike more often to strip more groups of enemies so our sentients can deal acceptable damage to them, if they don't die because they are power strength based still, so spending more energy. To get more energy you could cast Razor Gyre, granted you manage to hit enough enemies so as to recover more than the one you've just spent. Or, you could subsume Razor Gyre for Nourish.

It'll give you, more energy per energy source, it'll give you more damage against enemies which will be perfect for those with not defences, and it also applies to allies, like your summons, making them retaliate each time they're hit increasing their survivability and damage as well in more than one way.

Fusion Strike's field never felt "awkward" if enemies left before it was generated, because Fusion Strike dragged enemies in when cast.

 

So, as far as I'm understanding this, Caliban has gotten a buff in the form of cheaper Lethal Progeny, another buff in the form of a 10/10 change to Sentient Wrath which will benefit a lot of other frames too, and a buff in the form of Ortholysts which are ranged summons and therefore will waste little time and help around fairly well. However, he has received unhelpful buffs to an ability that no matter how much we twist it around is still highly dislikeable, a massive nerf to his best ability, and some other nerfs to his 3 in the form of splitting seams.

Granted survivability is no issue on Caliban once you equip shield recharge mods and Arcane Aegis, so that I could even ignore, but even ignoring that, I do not like what I see on paper.
 

 

Wukong

Wukong hasn't been nerfed but adjusted for fairer gameplay, which is absolutely fine as he's an splendid frame thanks to his powerful and versatile kit.
Anyways, Voruna can do kind of the same and more efficiently since she has built in heavy attack efficiency so Slamkong may become Slamwolf.
 

 

Hildryn

Hildryn's changes seem simplistic yet great. Dealing x7 times more damage per charged shot may do to compensate for the fact that Balefire has awfully low stats, but I don't it will too much. Stills, a well built Balefire can be surprisingly good from my own testing so I'll keep an eye around for that one build I had done!

Aegis Storm auto-equipping Balefire Charger, well, it might not be the best thing but given you cannot use anything else while on it, might as well. Flight fluidity is something we had been asking for years and it's good that 5 years later with the introduction of a totally new frame that stills superior to Hildryn on her own field, she got that necessary adjustment.

Deactivating it now grants iframes... which I see as a poor way to tell us "No, we cannot do anything about being stuck in this clunky animation, least we can do is prevent taking damage". Better visual stomp might be cool, I'll check that when update arrives, stills I don't think it'll bring much attractive or compensate for the restriction of landing. Though all things considered it may give a really nice "heavy" feel, that I can work with.

Ability to cast Pillage and other helminth abilities while in this state though, that is absolutely massive. If it could be done to Hildryn, I am expecting the same to be done to Yareli once her Prime arrives so I don't have to run Loyal Meru if I want to try some fun build (You guys must try Viral Tempest Barrage Yareli, I swear you'll love it).

Now then, I understand we still need ground beneath our feet to fly unlike does Jade since this isn't mentioned among the "upgrades", do we?
 

 

Nova

See, this is ironic, the main and exciting rework of this Devstream was meant to be Caliban's, but Nova takes the crown here alongside her super cute new deluxe.

Overall massive ability QoL and general improvements which I feel I don't need to make notes of for there's nothing I can think of that could be done differently, it's simply an stellar upgrade to a rather old frame, and seeing this I can only imagine what may happen to Nyx which desperately needs that rework. Trinity, well I don't think she needs a rework even if she's outdate simply because she's immortal, has limitless energy, and also limitless damage with other benefits, but that's my opinion.

 

So overall, extremely happy with these frames changes.
Except for Caliban. Reading his rework doesn't bring me any joy, thinking that perhaps one of my most anticipated frames when he was announced could finally make use of the time and resources I spent on him. I even did my EDA with all conditions using him last week to pay my homage.

At least it's good to know these are all subject to change so I hope all this feedback is taken into account, I've seen a lot of 0'16% mains being also unhappy with this rework.

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11 hours ago, (PSN)Grand_Sheba said:

Yeah i forgot about the augment. They do have to save some sauce for them. I agree with you heavy, its definitely augment worthy. As long as they fix his passive to be soemthing like i suggested above or comparable to the Adaptation mod so we dont need to equip it to get a better effect then the update will be great.

 

I could nitpick more on the fact he doesnt have his own floating movement animations but thats more bearable than the current passive.

totally agree. Really wish he had a floating moveset.

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23 hours ago, UlyssesTheDM said:

I think that Sevagoth just needs overhauled, especially his Shadow, because for a melee-based frame he is not tanky at all. If DE gave him 300-350 base armor, then he would be good because the healing from Gloom would be able to keep up with proper modding.

So, uh, actually that's a Bug. Both Shadow's (Prime and Base) currently have incorrect Base Armor. They only have ~185 (hard to get exact numbers) instead of the 475 they should. The numbers are correct in the Arsenal, but in-mission they're wrong. There are a couple Bug reports on it (including one by me). Once it's fixed the Shadow will be much Tankier. Unfortunately, DE have yet to acknowledge this Bug.

Edited by MerlintheAgeless
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8 hours ago, Fin_Heroic said:

"Damage Resistance from Null Star now applies to both Shields and Health (previously only applied to Health)."

Is this universal that every dmg res affects shields or is it just the null star? If so it becomes overpowered to other abilities and most likely will use it on hildryn, harrow, mag etc...

Other then Armour, null star was the only one that didn’t before.

Also yes, with the ability to recast it, it certainly becomes an obvious top tier Helminth (unless they swing around and diminish it)

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Based on your feedback, we are doing a couple more changes for Caliban in the Warframe update.
1. All his summons will have the shield regen. Summulyst will give more just because he has more summons
 2. Lingering defense strip field on Fusion Strike was added back
-Pablo via Tweet

Pablo really is just the best thing to happen to Warframe isn't he?

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Hey Pablo. Consider some Volt tweaks if you could. This comes up from the UI added to Nova.

Volt's Shield should have a little dot when his augment is present showing others they can pick it up. It would also be nice to have a "currently held" shield timer to more easily keep track. Finally please fix him dropping his shield when going Tenno mode and other actions.

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16 hours ago, Daiphelion said:

As per the wiki: 
jcMOAGG.png
;)

I don't mean what you do to get them out of 2, I got that, I just included it in the quote since it was in the paragraph.

"Lifted Status, as a Ragdoll, confers the opportunity to hit multiple hit locations on an enemy simultaneously; that's why Gas is so ludicrously effective with it."

Specifically this is what I asked about, for me ragdolled enemies react normal to gas.

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Howdy, Tenno!

Following up on Pablo's message, but we've heard your feedback and are returning Caliban's Fusion Strike defense-stripping radial field with Koumei & the Five Fates! This means we've restored defense stripping found in the radial field from the blast alongside defense stripping with the beam's contact with his rework. 

Also, all of his Sentient summons will get their Shield-recharging components back (with the Shields-per-second scaling identical to each other at a base 25), but Summulysts will do it best thanks to their ability to spawn six Choralysts versus Conculysts and Ortholysts who have a max spawn cap of three!

We also bumped up the Sentients’ base Duration (scaling with Duration Mods, of course) from 25 seconds to 45 seconds! Razor Gyre will also heal 30 Health/Shields/Overshields instead of 20!

Thank you for the feedback, everyone. Once again, all final details and changes will be listed in the official Koumei & the Five Fates patch notes.
 

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3 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

My only ever complaint was the it made enemies impossible to hit and removed the effect when we struck them, even though people told me "I'm sure it doesn't remove the effect", but Pablo himself confirmed that.

If you mean the vulnerability, without listening to the presentation again, I think Pablo was just referring to the lift itself being ended on damage.  Which does happen a lot, though it's not perfectly consistent for reasons I don't understand.

But in any case, lifted, lifted and prematurely ended, or lift-immune targets are still inflicted with the vulnerability for the duration.  (Or close to it.  I've seen it end slightly earlier, though it's not what I'd call significant.)

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10 minutes ago, [DE]Sam said:

Howdy, Tenno!

Following up on Pablo's message, but we've heard your feedback and are returning Caliban's Fusion Strike defense-stripping radial field with Koumei & the Five Fates! This means we've restored defense stripping found in the radial field from the blast alongside defense stripping with the beam's contact with his rework. 

Also, all of his Sentient summons will get their Shield-recharging components back (with the Shields-per-second scaling identical to each other at a base 25), but Summulysts will do it best thanks to their ability to spawn six Choralysts versus Conculysts and Ortholysts who have a max spawn cap of three!

We also bumped up the Sentients’ base Duration (scaling with Duration Mods, of course) from 25 seconds to 45 seconds! Razor Gyre will also heal 30 Health/Shields/Overshields instead of 20!

Thank you for the feedback, everyone. Once again, all final details and changes will be listed in the official Koumei & the Five Fates patch notes.
 

He's fixed now, thank you.

A quick question: do the Conculysts leave their own stripping fields or it's only Caliban's own beam that does? I assume it's the latter but it would be kinda funny if we had 4 fields pop up from one cast.

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45 minutes ago, [DE]Sam said:

Howdy, Tenno!

Following up on Pablo's message, but we've heard your feedback and are returning Caliban's Fusion Strike defense-stripping radial field with Koumei & the Five Fates! This means we've restored defense stripping found in the radial field from the blast alongside defense stripping with the beam's contact with his rework. 

Also, all of his Sentient summons will get their Shield-recharging components back (with the Shields-per-second scaling identical to each other at a base 25), but Summulysts will do it best thanks to their ability to spawn six Choralysts versus Conculysts and Ortholysts who have a max spawn cap of three!

We also bumped up the Sentients’ base Duration (scaling with Duration Mods, of course) from 25 seconds to 45 seconds! Razor Gyre will also heal 30 Health/Shields/Overshields instead of 20!

Thank you for the feedback, everyone. Once again, all final details and changes will be listed in the official Koumei & the Five Fates patch notes.
 

Awesome!

Maybe we could get Strength scaling on Escape Velocity for Nova? Razorwing Blitz has this behavior.

puppy-dog-eyes-sad.gif

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1 hour ago, [DE]Sam said:

Howdy, Tenno!

Following up on Pablo's message, but we've heard your feedback and are returning Caliban's Fusion Strike defense-stripping radial field with Koumei & the Five Fates! This means we've restored defense stripping found in the radial field from the blast alongside defense stripping with the beam's contact with his rework. 

Also, all of his Sentient summons will get their Shield-recharging components back (with the Shields-per-second scaling identical to each other at a base 25), but Summulysts will do it best thanks to their ability to spawn six Choralysts versus Conculysts and Ortholysts who have a max spawn cap of three!

We also bumped up the Sentients’ base Duration (scaling with Duration Mods, of course) from 25 seconds to 45 seconds! Razor Gyre will also heal 30 Health/Shields/Overshields instead of 20!

Thank you for the feedback, everyone. Once again, all final details and changes will be listed in the official Koumei & the Five Fates patch notes.
 

This right here, this is why I love DE so much!! I officially retract any complaints I had... this rework is absolutely perfect! Thank you so much for being so great to your players, I hope everyone here knows just how lucky we all are to have this dev team at DE.

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il y a une heure, [DE]Sam a dit :

Howdy, Tenno!

Following up on Pablo's message, but we've heard your feedback and are returning Caliban's Fusion Strike defense-stripping radial field with Koumei & the Five Fates! This means we've restored defense stripping found in the radial field from the blast alongside defense stripping with the beam's contact with his rework. 

Also, all of his Sentient summons will get their Shield-recharging components back (with the Shields-per-second scaling identical to each other at a base 25), but Summulysts will do it best thanks to their ability to spawn six Choralysts versus Conculysts and Ortholysts who have a max spawn cap of three!

We also bumped up the Sentients’ base Duration (scaling with Duration Mods, of course) from 25 seconds to 45 seconds! Razor Gyre will also heal 30 Health/Shields/Overshields instead of 20!

Thank you for the feedback, everyone. Once again, all final details and changes will be listed in the official Koumei & the Five Fates patch notes.
 

Fantastic news. Thanks a lot for caring.

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Moments like are to be brought up when someone says DE doesn't listen, now Caliban's abilities are considerably better and more interesting, still going to subsume off Razor Gyre as I always did for the aforementioned reasons and since the sentients already give shields, just using any mod that reduces shield cooldown or that converts energy to shields will do well, retracting that pov of me falling in shambles to the floor, now, I'm waking up.

hace 1 hora, Tiltskillet dijo:

If you mean the vulnerability, without listening to the presentation again, I think Pablo was just referring to the lift itself being ended on damage.  Which does happen a lot, though it's not perfectly consistent for reasons I don't understand.

Well given I mentioned not being able to hit 'em due to their floppy nature, yes, it was in reference to the lift, which as you've yourself pointed out randomly stopped, or didn't, or sometimes it did, though it also looks like I was speaking of the vulnerability. Regardless, it's looking much better now so, off we go to a better future.

Hail PabloGOD

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That was a much needed improvement for sure.

However, the buff to Razor Gyre literally wasn't even worth the 3 seconds of developer time it took someone to change the value. It's that meaningless, and the decision to replace it with Helminth will still be instant and effortless. The passive continues to leave much to be desired, too

And I still feel like the roles Caliban can fulfill overlap too much with Dante's. Both have units that distract enemies, both provide status vulnerability (Dante has more), and both provide regen to the team (but Dante's overguard provides status immunity and Caliban's shield doesn't). Dante's superior status vulnerability will largely offset Sentient Wrath damage vulnerability for everything that can deal damage with status procs, and there's also extra damage and status procs from Wordwarden on the side. I'd say Tragedy is a better damage ability than Fusion Strike, so that leaves armor strip as Caliban's singular advantage.

Before the enemy defense rework that would have been a pretty significant asset, but now full armor strip is far less crucial. So I guess the only hope Caliban has it that the sentient summons feel impactful enough to give playing him a distinct feeling.

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So generally speaking, I love all of this and I have no complaints. Caliban losing his armor strip field is disappointing, but he's getting enough other changes I'm cool with playing the new Caliban for a bit before I say he 100% needs it back. Nova just straight up looks great. Same for Hildryn. No thoughts on the Wukong nerf, it makes sense but I just straight up don't play the frame because he's never really felt like has an interesting kit to me.

I just have two points I'd like to bring up, because I haven't seen them talked about a whole lot and I think they're important.

1. Caliban suspending enemies instead of sending them tumbling.

I recognize this is going to be an unpopular take, but I really would prefer this change not happen. The tumbling is fun, adds character to the ability, and I have some dumb but enjoyable setups that take advantage of this on other frames for the sake of spectacle. I understand the intent is to make it easier to take advantage of the CC, but I feel like there is a point where players should accept a little bit of manual challenge. Popping enemies as they float away is fun, a lot more fun than just having foot-bastille, and Caliban has the AoE capabilities to make up for any lack of player skill in that department. Hell, half his kit now is going to be relying on AI targeting.

We saw this happen with Hydroid too, and I've seen calls for Khora's strangledome to get the same treatment. I get that it can be annoying for players sometimes, but it's going to be a sad day if every large-area CC ability winds up looking exactly the same with just a bit of different vfx and stats. If this were another game, I know I'd basically be saying "git gud," but this is Warframe. There's so much in the game that can make up for someone's trouble aiming if it means we get to keep some goofy CC. Not everything has to be ultra-optimized to be an immortal, field-controlling god.

As a compromise, I'd really like it if Caliban's stomp- and Hydroid's tentacles- kept some aspect of the character they had before. For Caliban, could we please have the goofy float-away ragdoll occur on enemies when they're killed? Same for Hydroid. I'd love if killing an enemy held by a tentacle meant the tentacle flung them across the room before grabbing another victim. This level of personality in abilities is important to me.

And while we're at it, four-legged sprint anim for Voruna's 4 pretty please?

 

2. Negative Strength no longer required on Nova for Speedva build.

This is a good change! Keep it. I like everything about her kit changes. But I would like to see, in general, some form of minor niche benefits to Nova- and other frames- having negative stats once in a while. It keeps builds interesting, and adds to the charm of corrupted mods by having a slightly higher level of complexity that I find very satisfying. Maybe this is already covered by the change, and Speedva players can keep their builds but have the functionality of her new 4 inverted? It doesn't sound like it, but it'd be neat. So not really a concern or gripe, but something I'd like to see the dev team stay open to.

 

That's all, hope this doesn't get buried and can be considered for the sake of those of us that enjoy a little bit of chaotic difficulty in our games. Everything looks great, thank you DE!

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2 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Howdy, Tenno!

Following up on Pablo's message, but we've heard your feedback and are returning Caliban's Fusion Strike defense-stripping radial field with Koumei & the Five Fates! This means we've restored defense stripping found in the radial field from the blast alongside defense stripping with the beam's contact with his rework. 

Also, all of his Sentient summons will get their Shield-recharging components back (with the Shields-per-second scaling identical to each other at a base 25), but Summulysts will do it best thanks to their ability to spawn six Choralysts versus Conculysts and Ortholysts who have a max spawn cap of three!

We also bumped up the Sentients’ base Duration (scaling with Duration Mods, of course) from 25 seconds to 45 seconds! Razor Gyre will also heal 30 Health/Shields/Overshields instead of 20!

Thank you for the feedback, everyone. Once again, all final details and changes will be listed in the official Koumei & the Five Fates patch notes.
 

can we get clarification if the Molecular Fission changes stated here are in addition to it's current effect or as a replacement? because replacing Null Star particle regen would be aweful honestly, if I wanted to recast constantly I'd be using Neutron Star already.

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23 minutes ago, LittleLeoniePrime said:

can we get clarification if the Molecular Fission changes stated here are in addition to it's current effect or as a replacement? because replacing Null Star particle regen would be aweful honestly, if I wanted to recast constantly I'd be using Neutron Star already.

already clarified on Twitter. It's in addition to.

 

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