Dev Workshop: Koumei & the Five Fates - Caliban + Nova Rework

[Maxwell]

Amazing cooking Mr. Pablo, now I hope more frames receive that kind of adjustment as many of them still have outdated mechanics.

I'm sure all my fellow Tenno have some frames in mind but let's start with Rhino who still need an augment in 2024 to recast his iron skin and his roar.

Edited 4 hours ago by Maxwell

[CephalonRuan]

8 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Balefire Charger is now automatically equipped upon activating Aegis Storm instead of needing to activate it

Does this work if we change Balefire out with helmith ?

[RachoFire]

I know there have already been a few comments saying the same thing but I thought I'd add my thoughts so you know how much of a mistake this is. Getting rid of Caliban defence strip field is a massive nerf, This effect is what makes the current ability one of the best defence strips in the game. More over calibans best set-up right now is using the ability to make a massive field that defence strips enemies then use a grouping ability to grab new enemies in the centre of it then pump them full of aoe status effects like blast or gas, a set up that would be improved thanks to the new tau status effect but by getting rid of the defence strip field that set-up doesn't work anymore. I get you're trying to make the ability more of a dps ability which is cool and you should keep the changes you made but also add back the field that happens after the ability because making caliban an ability dps centric warframe which this change would do basically makes his new tau status effect useless as they only serve a point if paired with weapons so making him a ability dps frame makes no sense. I'd love to have the option to have him as an ability dps but don't get rid of his best weapon platform feature to do it. 

everything else with the rework is amazing.

[Yulfan]

Il y a 8 heures, [DE]Sam a dit :

Enemies suspended by Sentient Wrath will now be locked in place to prevent them from floating away, similar to how Xaku’s Deny and Hydroid’s Tentacle Swarm hold enemies in position.

Can you do that for all Lifted status too? Having enemies floating away from us during melee is the very reason people hate the Lift effect.

Edited 4 hours ago by Yulfan

[Bradvaman]

When we are at it maybe Grendel and Yareli  can get the QOL  casting of subsumes while in vehicle mode ye ?

 

[Skoomaseller]

1) appreciate the hildryn changes, been too long since she needed them. Would appreciate a buff to balefire's crit/status however

2) Caliban's fusion strike fallout field should remain, alongside the proposed changes.

Overall looks good however. Slam Wukong will still be viable, just a little slower. Matters little, never affected me in the first place (yareli + atomos is a lawnmower on a skateboard).

[Daiphelion]

Caliban; the boatman who's dead in the water

To be clear, the primary two things Caliban needed: An easier route to acquisition, and better energy economy.  That's it, nothing else.  The number of 8ish year players I know who refuse to do a second Caliban grind after they fed the original to the Helminth is surprisingly high, and it's down to the acquisition route.  And there's a pile of newer players who'll get one and stop, or just not start. 

His passive's still weak at higher levels, especially since it only applies to a dominant damage type, either pump it up to the same as Adaptation, or allow some stacking. 

Razor Gyre being a dash and allowing pickups is a welcome change, but it's extremely underwhelming and runs the risk of turning into a 'spam 1 to stay alive and do nothing else' for some people

Sentients Wrath is a weird one.  The holding instead of applying Lifted as normal means no Ragdoll, which is a pretty heavy nerf when used right, but, they don't float away as much.  The cap removal's kinda 'meh', honestly, since a) it was rare to find enemies above its cap even in full squads with decent Strength, and b) it would still apply the damage Vuln debuff anyway. 

Lethal Progeny...  If this is another 'cycle-cast', it may just be me, I'm lazy, I'm picking one and ignoring the rest.  Otherwise, welcome changes and options. 

Fusion Strike.  Bin it.  Not even kidding, just, right in the bin, utterly useless.  Defence zone stripping with a reasonable Duration meant saving on a lot of energy and good coverage, especially since you could throw down multiple zones.  Now however, we've got a fresh line of sight hell to deal with, in a conical area, and a continual need to recast to cover fresh enemies which means spam casting a 100 energy ability which won't even cover the same sort of area... 

So.  His passive's still 'meh' since most of us will probably just slot Adaptation and overwrite it anyway.  His 1's nice for mobility at least now.  His 2's potentially been nerfed without Ragdolling and the cap change while nice is kinda mid.  His 3 is potentially now a cycle, which have been previously highlighted in Dev Streams as not great for QOL.  And his 4 exacerbates his issues with energy economy while delivering a significantly reduced effect.  I think I'll get some time in with Caliban before the rework drops, pity I can't double-feed the Helminth... 

[Rinastina]

I'm gonna join the choir of the Caliban mains and voice my objection to the removal of defense strip field. The best feeling I have with Caliban is when I bullet jump over a group of enemies and pretend to be a Death Star that leaves an exclusion zone at the point of impact. Or load some poor corpus with magnetic and watch them explode as they enter the strip field. Without the lingering area his 4 becomes a free subsume ability. I can achieve the same result by using Styanax' subsume and for less cost. I'm more positive about the rest of the rework but his 4 was the best thing about him and it seems useless now.

1 looks amazing. Like Reave but good

2 was decent already and is now actually great

3 I'm more conflicted about, though not as much as the others. I'd rather summon 3 dudes for full price but being able to mix and match them. Consider an augment for that.

[0_The_F00l]

All cool except for the removal of calibans persistent defense strip area, (and i think players will still build nova for negative range if they want the 90% DR from null star - but thats fine)

Armor isnt all that important now - so its not going to make a very significant difference , but i am not sure this was needed.

Rest of it is great - feels like DE actually had someone go through the years of feedback and actually do something about it - I am happy with this.

[Shaxarok]

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

So as a Caliban Main, I'm sure happy to seen him being somehow buffed, but as usual with remakes, he actually got nerfed.

The first nerf is about his Tau Status : People did complain that Caliban was only a Weapon Plateform, and now, he is even more of a Weapon Plateform, because removing his Slash damage and instead adding +%Status Chance as a debuff does nothing at all for the rest of hit kit, and is only extremely limited to specific weapons, which isn't that good of a buff against the targets that matter, being too often limited or immune to Status. Also, Tau Status seems great on paper ; but I'd like everyone to read the fine print : "with a max of 10 Stacks culminating in 100% Status Chance Vulnerability (10% per Stack), with each stack individually lasting 8 seconds"

The second nerf is about the Summulyst. Caliban already had a quite static kit, but alas his shield generating sentients were teleporting to him if he was going to fast ; but now it's even worst as you summon the Summulyst on one spot, and as the video show, the Shield regen is only linked from the Main Summulyst and not the aggro-redirecting spawned little sentients. Meaning it's useless on the fly, which is the baseline of a lot of Warframe missions.

The third nerf is about removing the lingering Strip Defense fallout field debuff from Caliban's Fusion Strike, which not only allowed him to cover large area by casting it in entry points of a room, but also allowed to preshot the movement of Demolysts and the spawning of Acolytes. Now you can only cast it when needed, losing a lot of precious time only to strip the target that matters, that won't take any damage anyways from a utility spell cast. And the Vortex effect seems gone too.
 

-
 

Best points of the remake : now you can regenerate allies Shield (which should have been a simple Augment), and Sentients don't have a hard hitbox anymore.


-

Razor gyre is going to be Helminthed away still, anyways you can get Tau status elsewhere if really needed ;

Target limit on Sentient Wrath was irrelevant, the ragdol effect wasn't that much of a big deal ; The spell didn't change much if it only appease the masses of keeping the enemies floating in one spot.

Conculysts were hard nerfed losing their aggro and their damage won't scale ; Ortholysts seem really fun but aren't needed anywhere and won't synergize with his kit ; Summulyst is way too static and seems much more range limited than before and a self Shield generating tool as he won't follow you around.

Only redeeming quality is the combo of spamming Fusion Strike with the Conculysts (at the cost of no aggro mitigation and shield generation, ooof) which would only do a total of 250% of the damage (37,5k base damage) if Caliban and the three Conculysts hit at least once each, which isn't guaranteed, considering aiming only one target and that Conculyst aren't out of sight of the target - Noted, it can be a total of 12 hits (3 max damage and 9 half damage) (so a maximum of 112,5k base damage, but highly improbable) ; without factoring the 5k damage explosion afterward, if it hit anything at all, and you won't even be able to correct the aim mid cast. Any level a little bit not straight or with many walls and doors will grant extremely different results ; and as the fallout field is gone, the amount of enemies stripped with be overall generally less. But without the Vortex effect, and without removing the Lifting effect from Sentient Wrath with damage dealt, you have no way of regrouping enemies to maximize it's potential, as you could before.

 

-

 

I'm sorry not to like it that much.

At least if passive was bumped up to 90% max damage reduction as Adaptation (which isn't a total damage reduction as it's for only for the one dominant type of each attack at a time) ; Caliban would still be a really good Warframe ; but this trio of nerfs will make him sink into a deeper grave ; even if artificially played by being given to everybody for free. Of course ; 50% Adaptation is still a game changer for a lot of people in the normal Star Chart, even too strong as a gift for new players, whatever the rest of his kit.

Or make his passive stack with Adaptation.

...

I think this is pretty solid, clear-headed analysis. I know you cook amazingly well, Pablo, and I trust that the caliban rework won't end up *bad*, but these concerns are very palpable from what is written. To whit, I'll add:

- Even if Razor Gyre is an okay ability now, it looks like it's going to be broadly similar to hydroid's 3, which has one thing razor gyre will sorely lack: enemy grouping. So it's just going to be shooting through a bunch of enemies and hoping you no longer need to care about them.

- Tau damage offers neither bonus damage nor reason to synergize with caliban's kit short of pulling out An Gun or perhaps a reworked companion.

- The aura of defense strip is what made his 4 good in the first place, and I can confidently say making it snappier and invincible will not make it comfortable to use, it'll just make it awkward Qorvex. I'd settle for good armor strip though

- The fantasy presented in every single caliban rework idea is being able to mix and match your minions to suit your needs, where now it feels like 3 entirely separate abilities crammed onto one slot, and the all-important defensive abilities being limited to just one, and an awkward one at that, extra frustrating.

- The passive *needs* a real reason to use it. It's too weak to replace adaptation as a 'ninth mod slot' and it gets replaced *by* adaptation. Here's my proposal: make it multiplicative with adaptation - there's basically never a scenario in warframe where you're only taking one kind of damage (except, oddly, sentients, which being superstrong against sentients would suit Caliban fine I think), so even if you're using it with Adaptation, they both approach raising slightly differently and where they work together and max out you get 95% reduction, which isn't all that insane, and makes adaptation worth considering as a main survival tool instead of a supplement. Alternatively, give up on treating it as 'sentient flavor' and give him a different passive already, something that works with the new kit and your vision of it.

[sXeth]

3 hours ago, McRibbles said:

As someone that doesn't play Caliban, yeah, same. I thought the defense strip field was a great thing, and if anything I feel like having to actually hit stuff with the beams seems like it'd be a bit more gimmicky and generally feel worse?

Rest of the changes great though. No Equinox changes, but I'll live. 2025, trust in the plan.

Technically she got a minor buff to Rage with the damage vulnerability normalization (though I wonder if that has its own knock on effect of them no longer stacking)

But yeah as a semi regular Caliban player the (apparent, it could just be odd wording) removal of his persistent defense removal field is a pretty heavy nerf on his 4. 

[Rexis12]

47 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

caliban is a caster not a weapons platform

Lmao no? 

Caliban has never been a Caster. 

His only damaging ability meant for damage was Razor Gyre. Everything else was to set up to deal damage elsewhere.

Sentient Wrath was damage vulnerability, summons were aggro and shields to shoot more, and Fission Strike was Libnering Armor Strip to kill with weapons. 

When was he a caster frame lol? 

1 hour ago, BalaDeSilver said:

She can't cast Helminth abilities on Merulina. That's all I ask, she can only use Gloom effectively while on Merulina, which is very limiting.

I mean they might. 

They have no excuse now if Hildryn can get animations while in Aegis Storm. 

To be fair, they have time to actually touch up the characters instead of the 'New Big Thing's that was 2019-2021 Warframe.

[BongoSkaggs]

1 hour ago, Spookmineer said:

But I never felt the need to cast a neutral 4.

It has a niche use for specific missions where you want the damage amp, but the slow would be be harmful to the flow of the mission and speed could make the enemies too dangerous. Higher level survival for instance. Granted with shield gating builds & the amount of firepower we have these days it's less and less useful.

[TKDancer]

55 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

It doesn't stack with Adaptation, but it does stack with some other sources of DR.   I think all of them, more likely than not, though I haven't tested all of them.

the issue is that it is just a worse version of adaptation on top of adaptation overwriting it

6 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

Lmao no?

did you not... read the workshop? is this a joke on your part?

also even before this rework, yes caliban was a caster, him being a really bad one didnt change that

Edited 3 hours ago by TKDancer

[Spookmineer]

4 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

i dont care for silly arguments like this

what is fusion strike? what are his 2 offensive summons about?

caliban is a caster not a weapons platform, and none of his offensive abilities seem to be benefiting from increased status chance

if you compare to another frame with status chance vulnerability like Dante, he actually benefits from it as he has an exalted weapon that deals pure heat dmg, ideal  for status vulnerability, or Citrine whos actually designed around support and benefiting from others attacking within range of her Prismatic Gem

If you can make him work solely as a caster on SP without weapons, all the power to you, I can't.

For me, the changes are beneficial, and at the same time they don't sound detrimental to you as a long time caliban player.

Tau status effects sound awesome. Status chance vulnerability affects all offensive abilities + weapons, don't they? You almost make it sound like Saryn should work the same with or without a weapon.

Quote: "Tau’s Status Effect inflicts Status Chance Vulnerability to enemies affected by it, with a max of 10 Stacks culminating in 100% Status Chance Vulnerability."

If you feel dante suits better for a specific mission, then you should abviously use him instead. Select most suitable frame per mission, if caliban isn't, use dante. Or nova, or...

[Rexis12]

11 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

did you not... read the workshop? is this a joke on your part?

also even before this rework, yes caliban was a caster, him being a really bad one didnt change that

Sevagoth is a Caster. 

Ember is a Caster. 

Dante is a Caster. 

Caliban is not a Caster, he's a Weapon platform. His abilities are all about buffing his weapon usage.

 

Literally what part of him is a Caster. Three of his abilities are CC focused. 

[The_Tiddler]

9 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

 

• Fusion Strike's beam now applies the Armor Strip, not the radial field.
  • Previously, the damage field left behind is what enabled Armor Stripping, which felt awkward if enemies left before it could apply. Now, it applies when the Beam hits an enemy, making it much easier to work with.
  • Fusion Strike’s beam can now deal damage multiple times in one instance (meaning the Beam can proc multiple damage ticks in one activation) to support damaging enemies more than once.
• Reduced the player’s turning speed when casting Fusion Strike. 

I've already seen people bring this up, but please no...

Setting up defense-stripping fields was/is a MAJOR part of Caliban's playstyle, and it felt thematically satisfying to turn the battlefield against the enemy and debuff them so your sentient goonsquad could deal more damage.

[Joylesstuna]

Extremely excited about the nova rework. Antimatter drop used to be one of my favorite abilities and I'm hoping the scaling changes so it does more damage. She was extremely annoying to build for speedva and the duration required for max null stars was insane. Can't wait to change my build with her.

[UlyssesTheDM]

8 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Molecular Fission (Augment): 

• Null Star will apply Molecular Prime to enemies struck by its particles.

8 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Nova

Pablo is 👑 

I absolutely LOVE these Nova changes. They really help bring her kit together and make her abilities more understandable for newer players to work with. Also the Antimatter drop changes are amazing and I am looking forward to room nuking with it. 😍

Also, Null Star is about to be amazing on Helminth and I am here for it. This buffed all of my Null Star Helminth builds and allows me to get the damage reduction more easily, and with the augment, allows me to keep that damage reduction on recast! No more auto seeking particles ruining my DR makes me very happy. ☺️ I might start building Nova as one of my main Warframes because her kit already jivved really well with my play style, and now it is even better and more consistent.

I can sing praises all day for the new passive, especially if it works with other fast/slow frames too. I can already see a Rage Nova build on the horizon. 🤗 Looots of energy.

8 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Wormhole will now stay up indefinitely unless a) all of its charges have been used or b) it has been replaced by a recast Wormhole when players have created the maximum number of portals.

I am SO ready to start thinking with portals. Can our forma energy colors (the two of them) dictate the entry point color and exit point color? Would love to make an Aperture Science Nova fashion frame. 🥰

8 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Added a Tap / Hold functionality: Tap to cast a Slowing effect on enemies. Hold to cast a Speed-Up effect instead.

• The “Speedva” build has been a long-time staple of Novas everywhere, and is a fantastic example of bug-turned-feature. While we love the quirk that resulted in our beloved Speedva, negative Strength offers little benefit to Nova’s kit beyond this mechanic. After much deliberation, we decided it was best for all Nova players to make this quality of life change: swap between Speed and Slow in-mission as you wish, without worrying about accidentally bringing a Slowva to your Defense Sorties. 
• Slow and Speed effects are both capped at 75% respectively, and scale the same with Strength. (i.e. a max Slow build will also provide max Speed).  

This is such a massive QOL change. Thank you Pablo and DE! ❤️🙏🏻

8 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Molecular Fission (Augment): 

• Null Star will apply Molecular Prime to enemies struck by its particles.

Did someone say, "Molecular Prime spreading?"

 

9 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Hildryn

 

9 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

• Balefire Charger is now automatically equipped upon activating Aegis Storm instead of needing to activate it
• Aegis Storm is now much more fluid regarding Ability usage and movement!
  • Hildryn can now use Pillage or any Helminth Ability while Aegis Storm is active!
    • Jade is allowed to use Pillage while using her 4th Ability, so we felt Hildryn deserved to utilize Pillage while she flew around, too!

I am looking forward to seeing how fast she can move while airborne. ❤️ I hope we will see something similar for Zephyr's Tailwind next!

9 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Caliban

I haven't really played him much, but with these changes, I will definitely give him a more in-depth try.

9 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Formalizing a new Damage Type and Status Effect: Tau Damage

Hahaaaa, I thought Pageflight was doing something new. I'm looking forward to seeing more abilities using this type of damage.

9 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Lethal Progeny:

Caliban can now summon three types of Sentients: Ortholysts, Summulysts, and Conculysts

This is so nice, better selection means a better Warframe IMO, as long as you don't have to have your reticle on an enemy in a radial menu....wait.....hey Pablo, there is an idea for you on how to fix tap to select abilities!!!! Hold "cast" the ability to give a radial menu to select which version you want, and Tap cast to actually cast the ability! Chroma, Titania, Wisp, Ivara, Xaku, Jade????....Holy crap that would be a HUGE QOL change. I'm going to put this on the Warframe suggestions forum too.

[TKDancer]

16 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

Caliban is not a Caster, he's a Weapon platform. His abilities are all about buffing his weapon usage.

you are delirious

if you think 1 debuff makes someone into a weapons platform than by your own insane standards sevagoth, ember and dante are also all weapons platforms

caliban's abilities being bad doesnt make him into a weapons platform, it makes him have to rely on weapons cause his damaging abilities do jack S#&$ for dmg, again by your own standards if inferno's dmg was bad in average play levels ember would also be delegated to being a weapons platform

Edited 3 hours ago by TKDancer

[Spookmineer]

5 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

you are delirious

if you think 1 debuff makes someone into a weapons platform than by your own insane standards sevagoth, ember and dante are also all weapons platforms

Post a vid using caliban SP no weapons.

[Tiltskillet]

18 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

the issue is that it is just a worse version of adaptation on top of adaptation overwriting it

I was just correcting a misunderstanding.  I'm aware of how Adaptation works on Caliban.  (As should be obvious from what you quoted, and hopefully read.)

 

[TKDancer]

6 minutes ago, Spookmineer said:

Post a vid using caliban SP no weapons.

again:

13 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

caliban's abilities being bad doesnt make him into a weapons platform, it makes him have to rely on weapons cause his damaging abilities do jack S#&$ for dmg, again by your own standards if inferno's dmg was bad in average play levels ember would also be delegated to being a weapons platform

a caster being bad at their job doesnt make them a weapons platform, it makes them a bad caster

his summons did squat for dmg, fusion strike as well(and only applied the armor strip after the dmg), this makes him a bad caster, not a weapons platform

im not super super confident about this rework, he will be a better caster for sure, but still wont be able to scale with content and the new tau status doesnt benefit any of his abilities which i find very odd

Edited 3 hours ago by TKDancer

[Do_High_Go]

9 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Fusion Strike's beam now applies the Armor Strip, not the radial field.

• Previously, the damage field left behind is what enabled Armor Stripping, which felt awkward if enemies left before it could apply. Now, it applies when the Beam hits an enemy, making it much easier to work with.

 Nope. Cannot call grapes oranges. A lingering radial field that strips armor and shields is always going to be better than having to stand still and aim some tilted beams at enemies in front of you to strip them.... oo geez I hope there are no stairs or something for the enemies to climb on and the floor is flat....

 No one used Fusion Strike to Ability DPS, It was used to strip enemies so they can be DPSed with guns and melee. With this change, his only one good ability, aside from the niche damage vulnerability from Sentient Wrath, is gone.... Forcing players into a design made for Ability DPS is not nice, making the armor and shield strip like that is a very bad change and honestly a mechanical Nerf in therms of ability Utility.

 Could have just made it so the center beam spawns the stripping field first and then the beams converge, still leaving the Lingering Field, while also making sure that the enemies hit are stripped....

 I do not thing that the Tau status is going to pull the weight of the AoE stripping zone that will be no more. Therefore I kindly ask to reconsider and leave the Lingering Strip Zone please.

 The other changes are great, love what you have done with Nova, but maybe the same amount of love should have gone to Caliban's Rework, because honestly - His rework feels like a Light one, not Nova's. 🫠

[Spookmineer]

1 minute ago, TKDancer said:

again:

a caster being bad at their job doesnt make them a weapons platform, it makes them a bad caster

his summons did squat for dmg, fusion strike as well(and only applied the armor strip after the dmg), this makes him a bad caster, not a weapons platform

I think you are stuck him being a caster.

A frame being bad at casting means it's not a caster after all, and maybe switch to weapons to support it.

If his summons don't do damage, fusion strike does nothing then what the frak makes him a caster?

Usually a caster does ranged DPS, but if the DPS isn't there, it's not a caster, is it?