Nyx’S Absorb Nerfed Hard :/

[SolarDwagon]

Try playing nyx in T4 endless missions. I've had to gather up several hundred thousand damage and still barely scratched heavies (because magnetic damage vs armor, woo!). Now she's going to struggle to even take out light units at those levels.

So basically, absorb is now a knockdown CC. GG.

 

Disclaimer: I have not yet played Nyx in these missions post-update, but all information above is factual.

Edited August 29, 2014 by SolarDwagon

[TwiceDead]

Yea, balance is important.

 

But nyx was already balanced. We didn't see people everywhere using nyx only, nyx was a little niche frame people hardly used.

 

Plus, absorb was buffed, then nerfed back to worse than it was before it got buffed. Call me crazy, but that doesn't seem like the most efficient way to "balance".

I don't know where you're coming from, but Nyx was never, and still isn't a niche frame people hardly used. 

 

She's people's most go-to choices along with Vauban if you want to bring efficient and reliable CC. 

 

The previous Absorb was not balanced. You could initiate a bubble, leave, make a cup of coffee and return with enough excess energy left to last all your abilities two rounds. On several occasions I'd join a defense mission and find a Nova camping the cryo-pod with Absorb, and do literally nothing else other than occasionally loot in-between rounds. 

 

Although I do agree the current absorb shouldn't be affected by your allies damage. 

Edited August 29, 2014 by TwiceDead

[Z123FFSS89]

I see no change....

[Azawarau]

Yea, balance is important.

 

But nyx was already balanced. We didn't see people everywhere using nyx only, nyx was a little niche frame people hardly used.

 

Plus, absorb was buffed, then nerfed back to worse than it was before it got buffed. Call me crazy, but that doesn't seem like the most efficient way to "balance".

Niche in the sense that she didn't wipe a room in one button so she wasnt used for anything low tier?

 

Her powers are as effective at lvl 1 as they would be at lvl 100

 

The only thing is shes slow where lower tier frame powers still work and shes one of the very few frames thats equally viable on eery mission type against every faction

[TheGuy08]

Niche in the sense that she didn't wipe a room in one button so she wasnt used for anything low tier?

 

Her powers are as effective at lvl 1 as they would be at lvl 100

 

The only thing is shes slow where lower tier frame powers still work and shes one of the very few frames thats equally viable on eery mission type against every faction

Look, you are entitled to your opinion. We could see after the buff that a nerf was inevitable. the issue remains the same no matter how many times they do this. Whether you think it is fair or not the devs consistently buff obscure skills only to nerf them later.

 

I know you feel Nyx is still as good as ever but she isn't as good as when i first leveled her. The absorb buff drove me from Nyx because it was too strong and because anybody could see a nerf was inevitable. While it is true we will all have to, "Deal with it", it just seems a little rude and unproductive to insult players who have placed such a strong investment into a frame that used to be rarely seen. Truth is while this hurts the players who used Nyx for her new OP skill it is a slap in the face to the players who loved her pre buff.

 

We see this cycle continually and the post never change,"I never played that frame and I do not care about your gripe!"' or "I do play her and I am fine with it and you should be too!". It a an opinion that lacks understanding. The nerf was coming but it was neither necessary or good. The same as the buff to the skill months before. The ruined something that needed a slight tweak. How many more times do we need to go through this before they realize they keep doing it?

[Trenggiling]

Why not just bring absorb back to before it was buffed?

Because old absorb was also super OP, but despite this fact it was also super clumsy to use.

So DE made it more functional by making it a toggle skill.

This allowed people to fully use its OP effect which brought a spotlight right on top of it.

So now DE has nerfed it... poorly... in an attempt to make it both balanced, and functional.

You can't blame them for trying, but hopefully they will change it.

Maybe someday absorb will reach a middle ground if DE keeps going with the buff/nerf pendulum.

One can only hope ^.^

[quietcanary]

okay I don't support this nerf either but lets stop talking about nyx like we used all her ability's kay? chaos and absorb are the ones you guys are talking about. im still waiting for psychic bolts to be interesting and mind control to be useful.

 

But I digress nyx nerf bad

 

they are trying to fix a problem that is barely a thing and is actually caused by friendly damage and not absorb OPness.

[fatpig84]

I rather DE increase the energy drain while remaining unlimited.

Or we could be creative and use power strength to the equation.

 

At base level, absorb will only absorb 48% of enemy incoming damage and negate the rest.

By using power strength, you can boost up the damage absorbed.

 

Downside is, it will cost a lot more to maintain if you are going for the highest damage possible.

Edited August 29, 2014 by fatpig84

[SeanRubin]

Who cares? You can still spam Chaos like a champ. 

 

For the moment anyway. Until that gets nerfed too.

[RealPandemonium]

Old absorb just needed the ability to cancel it early.  The change to a toggle was shoehorned and made it way too powerful (when it was already super powerful to begin with) for no reason.

[Arabaxus]

Let's take a look at this real quick.

 

For the sake of simplicity, assume Absorb takes no energy to be maintained. If you wish to see the calculations, open the spoiler. Otherwise, just read whatever comes afterwards. If my calculations are wrong, please correct me.

 

A maximum energy pool of 450 with Nyx, alongside 8 energy per 1000 damage is equal to 56250 damage.

 

Now Power Efficiency, capped at 75%, comes into play.

 

The energy:damage ratio is now at 2 per 1000, or 1/500.

 

(450 energy) * (500 damage/energy) = 225000 damage

 

Let's take into comparison how 225000 damage scales.

 

Take a Corrupted Gunner. Base Spawn Level is 8, Base Ferrite Armor is 500. Base HP is 700. This will be important shortly. An assumption I will make about something I am not 100% clear about shall be that Absorb deals a form of damage that has no specific bonus or reduction in damage with Ferrite type. 

 

Armor: (Taken from the Warframe Wiki: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor) I've snipped the important points below.

 

HP: Enemy HP is calcuated as follows: (Quoted from Reddit User: Mundungu Stahp here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1y319g/how_do_i_calculate_my_opponents_health_according/)

 

BaseHP*(1+(Currentlvl - Spawnlvl)^(2/5)

 

With that in mind, and the previous armor formulas, I'll make the assumption that effective HP is equivalent to:

 

[baseHP*(1+(Currentlvl - Spawnlvl)^(2/5)] * (1 + (Armor/300))

 

Since the variable Armor is calculated as:

 

Base Armor * (1 + (((current level - base level) ^ 1.75) / 200))

 

I will also make the next assumption, and the final equation, to be:

 

Effective HP = [baseHP*(1+(current level - base level)^(2/5)] * (1 + ((Base Armor * (1 + (((current level - base level) ^ 1.75) / 200))) /300))

 

So in the case of Corrupted Gunner:

 

Effective HP = [700*(1+(current level - 8)^(2/5)] * (1 + ((500 * (1 + (((current level - 8) ^ 1.75) / 200))) /300))

 

Let now a variable X stand for the gunner's current level - 8

 

700*((1+X)^(2/5)) * (1 + ((((X) ^ 1.75) / 200))) /300)) = Effective HP

 

Our maximum theoretical damage is 225,000 damage right?

 

Let's put that into the formula as Effective HP

 

225,000 = 700*((1+X)^(2/5)) * (1 + ((((X) ^ 1.75) / 200))) /300))

 

If we solve for X: (Credit: Wolfram Alpha)

 

 

While we're at it, here's the same calculation with just Flow and no power efficiency:

 

 

That means that at the cost of all your energy you could theoretically kill a Level 2,445 Corrupted Gunner (Flow + 75% Efficiency + previous assumptions, for simplicity). Of course in reality, this number will not be as high, but this is simply an example to demonstrate Absorb's current scaling. The massive difference in function now is that it costs a much greater amount of energy to pull off.

 

Of course, Nyx does not scale infinitely anymore. However, Absorb remains as one of the highest scaling damage-based abilities in the game, by what I would argue as a long shot.

 

Besides personal, subjective objections, including:

 

-Nerfs in general make the game less fun, especially for players who used to play said item

-Nerfs in general decrease the amount of playstyles for said nerfed item, especially with Digital Extreme's previous explosive incident with Ammo Mutations and Scavenger mods being the main argument for supporters of the nerf while ignoring their new status as band-aid mods

-Absorb was one of the great selling points of Nyx, and its duration was also one of Absorb's selling points. Reducing this (the cost of absorbing damage will overshadow the reduced standby cost by a long shot at higher levels) does not help this point.

 

I personally would conclude that Nyx isn't unplayable, just not as fun anymore. For me at least, once loved, she'll gather dust in my Arsenal alongside my 6 Forma Penta and 5 Forma Angstrum.

 

If I were given the choice of properly balancing Nyx, I would have personally made Nyx's Absorb only absorb a base of 5%/10%/15%/20% of incoming damage based on mod level, and this would scale with Power Strength. I would keep the standby drain the same (affected by Efficiency of course), and not have any cost for incoming damage. That way, Absorb would be toned down well enough without mitigating the fun of players who like to stay in one spot to gather damage, then later unleash it at once. Reminder: This may sound boring to you, but there are players with the same rights as us who may enjoy this playstyle.

 

So yeah, I won't really protest or object since I know Digital Extremes won't really change anything regarding this, at least for a long time, but Nyx will begin to gather dust, just as happened with Frost Prime, Angstrum, and Penta.

 

P.S.: Equation Solver can be found here: http://www.wolframalpha.com/widgets/view.jsp?id=7953c4ea52a4873d32cc72052f3dcb10

Edited August 29, 2014 by Arabaxus

[Azawarau]

Look, you are entitled to your opinion. We could see after the buff that a nerf was inevitable. the issue remains the same no matter how many times they do this. Whether you think it is fair or not the devs consistently buff obscure skills only to nerf them later.

 

I know you feel Nyx is still as good as ever but she isn't as good as when i first leveled her. The absorb buff drove me from Nyx because it was too strong and because anybody could see a nerf was inevitable. While it is true we will all have to, "Deal with it", it just seems a little rude and unproductive to insult players who have placed such a strong investment into a frame that used to be rarely seen. Truth is while this hurts the players who used Nyx for her new OP skill it is a slap in the face to the players who loved her pre buff.

 

We see this cycle continually and the post never change,"I never played that frame and I do not care about your gripe!"' or "I do play her and I am fine with it and you should be too!". It a an opinion that lacks understanding. The nerf was coming but it was neither necessary or good. The same as the buff to the skill months before. The ruined something that needed a slight tweak. How many more times do we need to go through this before they realize they keep doing it?

I have a very reat sense of sympathy

 

I cant sympathize with anyone defending absorb as it was

 

okay I don't support this nerf either but lets stop talking about nyx like we used all her ability's kay? chaos and absorb are the ones you guys are talking about. im still waiting for psychic bolts to be interesting and mind control to be useful.

 

But I digress nyx nerf bad

 

they are trying to fix a problem that is barely a thing and is actually caused by friendly damage and not absorb OPness.

Ever run a mission with enemies over 40?

 

Mind control gets useful

-Math and stuff-

 

Nyx is as good and fun as ever

 

Just cant abuse absorb as much

[Azamagon]

Proposal of a balanced middleground:

 

* Now simply costs a flat 100 energy again. No drain or anything at all.

* Lasts a max set duration again. Up to say... 16 seconds or so?

* Absorbs any and all damage, like before.

* Can be deactivated earlier if you want to, but for no other benefit but to exit and detonate earlier. No energy benefits from doing so.

 

TL;DR - First incarnation of Absorb, but simply able to deactivate it early.

 

That would be good enough, no?

[TheGuy08]

I have a very reat sense of sympathy

 

I cant sympathize with anyone defending absorb as it was

 

 

You do not need to quote me just to confirm what I already said about you. I imagine with that many post you are more likely to talk than to read. So, you may have missed the point I was trying to make. With no disrespect but you are basically giving the stereotypical response we see when any nerf or buff hits. It isn't an insult. There will be players who say it was fine as was too. 

 

The core issue is that DE has a tendency to over buff and then over nerf to compensate. Instead of the stereotypes perhaps we should try and get DE to find balance by leaving what's not broken alone. And I know in your opinion Absorb was always broken. Many players feel infinitely scaling skills are unfair. While I understand that unless they plan to nerf each and everyone and scale damage based on content for high dps (ie damage capping them in lower content) I do not think there is much room to argue.

 

In any case DE should take a step back and re evaluate their buffing and nerfing process. 

 

Realistically how many more time do we have to read this thread before it ends?

[Azure.M]

 

Take a Corrupted Gunner. Base Spawn Level is 8, Base Ferrite Armor is 500. Base HP is 700. This will be important shortly. An assumption I will make about something I am not 100% clear about shall be that Absorb deals a form of damage that has no specific bonus or reduction in damage with Ferrite type.

 

It deals Magnetic damage. Remember the hamfisted patch that made Absorb not absorb magnetic damage any more so you couldn't absorb an absorb and chain them? Anyway Magnetic has a penalty against Alloy armour but not Ferrite so your assumption is correct.

 

 

Redacted until I can actually do a T4 survival again and check the numbers because there was way too much guessing in that to be useful:

But I think you definitely screwed up your calculations somewhere. At like 45-50 mins in a T4 survival if I put absorb on for a couple of seconds to buy time until I can cast Chaos again it will absorb 50k+ damage and that hardly does anything to heavy gunners (which is expected because it's only a second or two of fire, and wow that will cost me ~100 energy with max efficiency now) so 225k damage might maybe kill them (They're what, somewhere around level 60-80? I don't really check.) while using up all my energy and leaving me to die to the first one who was out of the explosion range but I really don't see her doing anything to level 2500s.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Azure.M

[RealPandemonium]

Proposal of a balanced middleground:

 

* Now simply costs a flat 100 energy again. No drain or anything at all.

* Lasts a max set duration again. Up to say... 16 seconds or so?

* Absorbs any and all damage, like before.

* Can be deactivated earlier if you want to, but for no other benefit but to exit and detonate earlier. No energy benefits from doing so.

 

TL;DR - First incarnation of Absorb, but simply able to deactivate it early.

 

That would be good enough, no?

This is what it needed in the first place.  They shoehorned the toggle mechanic where it didn't really fit because they wanted to put it to use.  They should make Ember's 4 a toggle instead and put that mechanic to good use.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Proposal of a balanced middleground:

 

* Now simply costs a flat 100 energy again. No drain or anything at all.

* Lasts a max set duration again. Up to say... 16 seconds or so?

* Absorbs any and all damage, like before.

* Can be deactivated earlier if you want to, but for no other benefit but to exit and detonate earlier. No energy benefits from doing so.

 

TL;DR - First incarnation of Absorb, but simply able to deactivate it early.

 

That would be good enough, no?

THIS IS INFINITELY BETTER THAN THE NEW CHANGE. 

 

 

I personally would conclude that Nyx isn't unplayable, just not as fun anymore.

Of course she isn't unplayable.  No one is unplayable because you are not entirely dependent on skills.

 

However, there is no reason to play her anymore.

[RealPandemonium]

However, there is no reason to play her anymore.

>Chaos

>Absorb still on-demand invulnerability and knockdown

>where's muh cheese

Edited August 29, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

>Chaos

Easily out classed by other frame's skills

>Absorb still on-demand invulnerability and knockdown

Last about a second at high levels and can be rendered moot by friendly fire

>where's muh cheese

0/10

[RealPandemonium]

 

>Chaos

Easily out classed by other frame's skills

>Absorb still on-demand invulnerability and knockdown

Last about a second at high levels and can be rendered moot by friendly fire

>where's muh cheese

0/10

 

I forgot for a second that you were an infinite content shill. :D

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I forgot for a second that you were an infinite content shill. :D

If you are playing the star map and not doing endless missions then there is even less reason to use anyone other than Loki or Rhino.

[Monolake]

 

Let's take a look at this real quick.

 

For the sake of simplicity, assume Absorb takes no energy to be maintained. If you wish to see the calculations, open the spoiler. Otherwise, just read whatever comes afterwards. If my calculations are wrong, please correct me.

 

A maximum energy pool of 450 with Nyx, alongside 8 energy per 1000 damage is equal to 56250 damage.

 

Now Power Efficiency, capped at 75%, comes into play.

 

The energy:damage ratio is now at 2 per 1000, or 1/500.

 

(450 energy) * (500 damage/energy) = 225000 damage

 

Let's take into comparison how 225000 damage scales.

 

Take a Corrupted Gunner. Base Spawn Level is 8, Base Ferrite Armor is 500. Base HP is 700. This will be important shortly. An assumption I will make about something I am not 100% clear about shall be that Absorb deals a form of damage that has no specific bonus or reduction in damage with Ferrite type. 

 

Armor: (Taken from the Warframe Wiki: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor) I've snipped the important points below.

 

 

 

HP: Enemy HP is calcuated as follows: (Quoted from Reddit User: Mundungu Stahp here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1y319g/how_do_i_calculate_my_opponents_health_according/)

 

BaseHP*(1+(Currentlvl - Spawnlvl)^(2/5)

 

With that in mind, and the previous armor formulas, I'll make the assumption that effective HP is equivalent to:

 

[baseHP*(1+(Currentlvl - Spawnlvl)^(2/5)] * (1 + (Armor/300))

 

Since the variable Armor is calculated as:

 

Base Armor * (1 + (((current level - base level) ^ 1.75) / 200))

 

I will also make the next assumption, and the final equation, to be:

 

Effective HP = [baseHP*(1+(current level - base level)^(2/5)] * (1 + ((Base Armor * (1 + (((current level - base level) ^ 1.75) / 200))) /300))

 

So in the case of Corrupted Gunner:

 

Effective HP = [700*(1+(current level - 8)^(2/5)] * (1 + ((500 * (1 + (((current level - 8) ^ 1.75) / 200))) /300))

 

Let now a variable X stand for the gunner's current level - 8

 

700*((1+X)^(2/5)) * (1 + ((((X) ^ 1.75) / 200))) /300)) = Effective HP

 

Our maximum theoretical damage is 225,000 damage right?

 

Let's put that into the formula as Effective HP

 

225,000 = 700*((1+X)^(2/5)) * (1 + ((((X) ^ 1.75) / 200))) /300))

 

If we solve for X: (Credit: Wolfram Alpha)

 

 

 

While we're at it, here's the same calculation with just Flow and no power efficiency:

 

 

 

That means that at the cost of all your energy you could theoretically kill a Level 2,445 Corrupted Gunner (Flow + 75% Efficiency + previous assumptions, for simplicity). Of course in reality, this number will not be as high, but this is simply an example to demonstrate Absorb's current scaling. The massive difference in function now is that it costs a much greater amount of energy to pull off.

 

 

Absolutely wrong math cause of wrong (probably old) formula.  Its HP =  (level-base_level)^2 * 0.015 * base_health + base_health.  Didn't check armor.  Also you ignored the activation and time cost.  

 

And all these energy-to-damage calculations have no place as long as virtually unlimited (afaik 56 billion is the games' limit)  stackable Antimatter-drop exists.

 

Absorb was never a damage ability really but a redirection and tanking (=drawing aggro) ability. 

 

Now you are punished for any friendly fire - that's a nonsense change and that's not how you limit an ability vs high levels. 

Edited August 29, 2014 by Monolake

[RealPandemonium]

If you are playing the star map and not doing endless missions then there is even less reason to use anyone other than Loki or Rhino.

Warframe is all about flavor.  The game is not hard; there's no need to use THE BEST BUILD.  Use whatever you enjoy using.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Warframe is all about flavor.  The game is not hard; there's no need to use THE BEST BUILD.  Use whatever you enjoy using.

lel

[Ion-Trail]

They finally nerfed the hell out of absorb? And the nerf made it completely useless? Whereas before the buff made absorb too OP?

 

Good.

 

With all this feedback they can finally set absorb to a viable middle ground between the OP OG buff and the 'first to worst' nerf.