Melee Feedback Megathread

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

The aimbotting is the problem. It's hard to hit fast-moving targets, so moving quickly up close should really throw the AI's aim off. If 360-no-scope-headshotting was removed from the AI, melee would be far more viable against the Grineer and Corpus. As a melee-centric Volt, I can attest to this. This is why I use a specific weapon - I rely upon speed and erratic, rapid movements to dodge projectile fire, but more realistically, this should confuse and disorient the enemy. Really, those who do such things in a tightly-packed crowd should cause the opponents to hit each other with their gunfire as they try to shoot that "Tenno Scum."

[(PSN)Zeylon]

I still run into this issue sometimes, where taking 4-6 mooks isn't a huge deal, but if you get a large enough crowd you're sort of screwed.  This happens a lot with the Corpus where you suddenly have a mass of some absurd amount of moas/crewmen all firing at once.  It's just not practical to try to block it and fleeing or finding cover isn't always practical (many Corpus stages are a bit light on the cover).

 

I recall being frustrated when I was starting out at how quickly a large enough crowd of Corpus would murderize me.  Poking my head out and shooting is one strategy, but it's obviously not a melee strat.  Depending on how weak you are, a lot fewer Corpus are needed to provoke an issue as well.  Weapons that have knockdown are helpful, since they can't shoot from the floor.  That sort of raises another issue though - there's a lot of melee weapons, and many are kinda crap.

 

Getting more time played, I think I find the solutions are mixed.  Just disarming everyone is probably one of the most practical ones, oddly enough.  Later, you just get beefy enough to shrug off the attacks... that's not so much a "strategy", and falls apart when the enemies are higher.  That was a larger issue with a lot of the LoS nerfs to powers too -- the ideal way to take out many enemies in the game is to never be in their line of sight.  Ideally you kill them before they start shooting you, and obviously that's not always possible.

Edited November 16, 2014 by (PS4)Zeylon

[Evernal_]

Drop block with max Rage as Valkyr, 4 to win

[IfritKajiTora]

Thats why melee weapons are weak compared to long distance shooting weapons.

Enemies near you should automaticly get auto melee not shooting. It could reduce the damage on you. Then you will be forced to attack, guard and dodge with good timing.

And by the way, enemies should get less accuracy, because it is really insane. it looks like Auto Aim hack they have.

Edited November 16, 2014 by IfritKajiTora

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

If that's your standard, you'll never get any traction. There are always people who can make crazy things that the community at large thinks are impossible, possible.

 

 

I suppose you have a point. I may have worded it incorrectly. The point I'm trying to get across is that it should be viable for a wider variety of players without compromising difficulty. The problem I have with people saying " Use X mod" or " make X build" is that there is no reasonable way to work towards that since the majority of progression is based on RNG. It's like when I get a new sword or gun and I want to try to play differently the only answer I continue to get is "go grind more first". And that really not all that fun. I think "accessible" is more the word I was looking for.

 

 

Moving around fast while meleeing them used to work. But not anymore because the enemies are all aimbots now. Well, I'm glad most Corpus units use projectile based weapons, but the main issue is the grineer.

 

Also, there should be a set priority in the moves.

We should be able to block and dodge the moment we press those keys. Not after our previous animation is done. That's a huge issue.

 

So it comes down to allowing dodge and block to interrupt any other action that we were doing, the moment we press the corresponding key. And off course removing the aimbot mechanics from the enemies.

 

I'm all for making blocking and dodging mesh better with combos but I'm not sure about cancelling. I'm not entirely sure how it would pan out in warframe but I know that it can be pretty exploitable if not implemented correctly. Not a bad idea though.

 

 

Infinite sprinting is already a thing if you use sliding well, so if anything, that just makes it easier for the less finger-acrobatic players to keep up in speed.

 

I feels It's unnecessary to make another resource for blocking. Stamina, imo, should be a resource used for ACTIVE defense (compared to Shields/Health which is passive defense) and preferably also for empowering melee with Channeling (would make Channeling builds far more interesting than now, in contrast to its Energy-useage which just makes it clash with abilities). That fits in a classic "triangle archetype" too:

Shields/Health/Armor = The durable tank

Energy = The casting mage

Stamina = The agile rogue

 

About dodges: They (on top of higher mitigation) needs to be more akin to Mirage's dodging speed. For some weird reason, she has WAY faster dodging than all other Warframes. Imo, that's how ALL Warframes should move. Making it less spammable is unnecessary, considering the huge stamina-cost they have already. After all, I really think we should be rewarded when we play well and actively.

 

Gotcha. That makes more sense than my idea.

 

 

Thats why melee weapons are weak compared to long distance shooting weapons.

Enemies near you should automaticly get auto melee not shooting. It could reduce the damage on you. Then you will be forced to attack, guard and dodge with good timing.

And by the way, enemies should get less accuracy, because it is really insane. it looks like Auto Aim hack they have.

 

This is a good point. When you melee an enemy from the front and they continue to shoot at you the incoming damage is pretty unavoidable. If enemies would prioritize melee when the player is in range it could help alleviate pressure on players with weapons that don't stagger consistently. Enemy melee attacks will probably need to be more telegraphed(and actually include forward movement) so that dodging is possible but not too easy.  

Edited November 16, 2014 by (PS4)KaxMcc

[Hatzeputt]

Ahem Reflex Guard ...anyone?

[Freezern]

Partial evasion and blocking while attacking?

The blocking shouldn't come at an increased stamina cost as you are already "expending stamina to make the weapon wizz around".

 

As a fancy alternative, maybe start adding "defensive" combos to all stances?

Basically adding a combo chain that gives you more defense in some form while performing it?

[KingTaro]

I'm all for making blocking and dodging mesh better with combos but I'm not sure about cancelling. I'm not entirely sure how it would pan out in warframe but I know that it can be pretty exploitable if not implemented correctly. Not a bad idea though.

 

A lot of melee based games I played so far had a block and/or dodge that could cancel almost every ongoing action.

 

One of the non-cancelable moves were usually the charge up moves. Move like we had before Melee 2.0, where we had to hold down melee for a charge attack. The logic behind it is most likely to turn it into a high risk / high reward move.

 

As for Warframe, the cancelable moves would be every type of melee attack with both feet on the ground.

So moves such as the jump attacks won't be cancelable.

 

By the way, could you explain how it could be exploitable? In a game such as Warframe, where a click of a button can kill everything in a room, I'd like to know how a melee canceling move could be exploitable.

[Elenortirie]

btw enlighten me:

what happens when you are out of stamina? except not being able of sprint/block/dodge?

[and why the heck regular atacks uses stamina when they are not limited by it in any way....]

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

You have to remember that the game must be balanced in the assumption that you're using all your available weapons.

That being said, stamina drain from certain actions should be toned down. That's assuming stamina serves any real purpose at all.

[Aimop95]

blocking with channeling should reduce stammina consumption by half at least.

[ENIAK_Prime]

That's what blocking and moving are for.

 

In theory it works perfectly, but in practice there's so much stamina usage from sprinting/rolling/attacking/blocking you're almost always out. God forbid you use the Kronen and want to block too.

Forget the usage of stamina in other actions, blocking alone is awful. I mean, it's fine at early to mid tier, but anywhere close to the lategame even small groups of enemies will eat through your stamina in a heartbeat. You are essentially not allowed to block in the lategame (and before you DARE to ask, yes. I use Marathon, Quick Rest, AND Warrior's Grip. I know stamina.)

And DODGING? Really? There's DODGING in this game? It seems to me like all the enemies are aimbots and the only way to avoid damage is to just plain get behind something. The only attack I've ever noticed myself actively dodging is a Bombard's rockets. I mean, if I'm running around I can still see myself clearly taking a decent amount of damage, with the flashy-flash only stopping once I find some cover. What's the point of running around and trying to dodge something if you're just getting hit anyway?

Edited November 17, 2014 by Soldatto

[Elenortirie]

And DODGING? Really? There's DODGING in this game? It seems to me like all the enemies are aimbots and the only way to avoid damage is to just plain get behind something. The only attack I've ever noticed myself actively dodging is a Bombard's rockets. I mean, if I'm running around I can still see myself clearly taking a decent amount of damage, with the flashy-flash only stopping once I find some cover. What's the point of running around and trying to dodge something if you're just getting hit anyway?

 

I think that per dodge they meant action you can perform via that combination of keys:

rmb+[w/a/s/d]+roll button

 

quite cool animations gotta tell :P

 

but imho too much buttons need to be pressed to activate it to make it viable option for me :/

[CrazyCatLad]

Simple: Running shouldn't consume stamina but other actions should.

 

 

At least I think that would fix running out of stamina while blocking and moving around.

[Elenortirie]

Simple: Running shouldn't consume stamina but other actions should.

 

 

At least I think that would fix running out of stamina while blocking and moving around.

 

still doesn't change weird fact that swinging sword consumes stamina but when reching zero it has no meaning for swinging that sword....

 

so swinging sword not consuming stamina could be as good as its now just it leaves you room to do other stuff meanwhile....

[Pendragon1951]

The only practical idea DE can do is convert the game to melee only to make melee viable overall because in general, IMHO the nature of the game is very gun heavy so going melee only is impractical. I have stood and watched on defensive missions one guy wacking at some enemy 3 or 4 time till decided this is stupid and just shot the enemy. I think what should have happened in the beginning is be more melee heavy then introduce like laser shooting flintlocks like they used in early japan thus the fire rate would be such that melee actually has a chance against them.

[SlapClown]

No excalibur? Really?

I know really 

[AtenAngel]

Your melee attacks,blocks,dodge,parry,sprint all using stamina so if you run melee only you need a stamina base build...for now.A tweak to stamina would be very cool though (and almost necessary like energy regen)

[CY13ERPUNK]

basically yes

 

dodge and block and dont get flanked (ie keep the enemy in front of you), you gotta keep moving at all times, and reposition to kill the few enemies behind you so that the majority are always in front, fight behind cover whenever possible

 

additionally I am all for a 50% reduction in stamina drain across the board (unless DE REALLY wants to improve their gimp stamina system, ie stamina 2.0, they chickened out last time, would be nice to see them step up to the plate this next time) [sidenote this would also indirectly help the 'sprinting is slow and gimp' arguments]

 

the idea of stamina draining on blocking being related to the number of hits vs the dmg is another interesting idea, but i think it could have similar problems, ie grakata grineer could rek yer stamina super fast while snipers would pose no threat at all, personally i think the dmg/stamina idea is better, but the rates/ratios need to be tweaked IMHO

 

lastly, it would be nice if more blocking related mechanics were delegated to the melee weapon instead of being mostly frame mods (this of course, is a mod slot issue; lots of ppl think frames need 2-4 more 'locked' slots for utility and augments only; but at the same time melee is beginning to have the dmg vs utility problem as well; maybe 1-2 'utility' slots for melee is not uncalled for)

[Hypernaut1]

everyone leaves out Mag as a melee frame. Shes an awesome melee frame.

 

Her SP skill restores her shields and leaves corpus weak and vulnerable to melee. Her pull drops enemies to floor leaving them open for melee crits, and crush can give you a breather, downing enemies all around her. Her bullet attractor can absorb a hailstorm of bullets. She has the same amount of armor as Ash and decent health.

 

 

In fact, i use her more for melee than i use Ash. IMO, Ash is a long range character. Im rarely up close and personal with him. Im usually sniping mobs with his bladestorm or making them bleed from his shurikens from a distance. 

[ENIAK_Prime]

I think that per dodge they meant action you can perform via that combination of keys:

rmb+[w/a/s/d]+roll button

 

quite cool animations gotta tell :P

 

but imho too much buttons need to be pressed to activate it to make it viable option for me :/

Not gonna lie, rolling is pretty neat.

But yeah...

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

By the way, could you explain how it could be exploitable? In a game such as Warframe, where a click of a button can kill everything in a room, I'd like to know how a melee canceling move could be exploitable.

 

It's mostly just an assumption but ,In short, if it is too easy and not limited in any way it can remove all risk from performing certain melee moves. Which, depending on the move, could lead to unintended usage of certain weapons  such as infinite stagger locking of large groups of enemies, suspension in midair for long periods of time, knockdown spamming etc. But considering that Warframe limits dodging and blocking via stamina consumption my uneasiness is sort of unfounded. I was mostly recalled  what was possible in DmC with cancelling and thought to myself that there was no way that someone isn't going to find a way to exploit this system.

 

TL;DR: Ignore me I was jumping to conclusions.

 

 

the idea of stamina draining on blocking being related to the number of hits vs the dmg is another interesting idea, but i think it could have similar problems, ie grakata grineer could rek yer stamina super fast while snipers would pose no threat at all, personally i think the dmg/stamina idea is better, but the rates/ratios need to be tweaked IMHO

 

I think, regarding the blocking issue, that it could be based on both projectile type and number. so that slower harder hitting projectiles will take more stamina per hit to balance against frequency while the opposite can be done for full auto weapons.

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

-Contents moved to OP-

Edited November 19, 2014 by (PS4)KaxMcc

[TheErebus.]

5 - Melee only is not as viable at higher levels due to lack of active damage mitigation methods.

This is false. I am able to use any melee weapon at higher levels effectively by using specific builds.

[Yazeth]

*looks at title*

*reads post*

 

Wrong Section.

 

Devoid strikes again!

Edited November 18, 2014 by Yazeth