January 30Th: Community Hot Topics!

[MadHatHacker]

Honestly, I feel like a raid boss would be the perfect opportunity to make the massive single target DPS of the sniper class relevant. If you can make that happen in a mission that doesn't make me want to pour thumbtacks on my keyboard and faceroll it, I will be more than satisfied. 

[apcha]

8 players raids:

The main issue is recruiting team members. And the hard truth: more members simply means mediocrity! if you recruit a 8 players team in public chat, it's hard or too time consuming to ensure that all members have good team coordination and top-tier gears. So if the mission designer want to make the mission more challenging, you must impose some minimum requirement, such as conclave ratings, mastery rank, and etc. Maybe developers need to consider developing a proper match-making utility for this.

[Liacu]

Telegraphs

No comment on the raids but I feel like it should be a no-brainer for enemies to be telegraphed. Sniper enemies being able to one shot players seemingly out of nowhere add nothing of value to the overall experience and only creates frustration. The point of telegraphs is to give the player the capability to notice attacks and be able to act to avoid such attacks. If Heavies and Moas did not have an animation for their ground stomps, it'd obviously be quite detrimental to the game. I do believe Scorpions and Ancients should get a longer, more prominent telegraph (and maybe even sound ques since it's ranged) for their grapples considering how easily such abilities could get you killed.

 

It's really a simple question of "What's more fun, being hit or dodging attacks?".

 

Overtake Tactical Alert

Despite completing the event quite easily, I did not enjoy it at all. The alert in general was far too imbalanced due to three points:

 

1. A massive target of a rover with a very small health pool considering the level of the enemies

 

2. Nullifiers everywhere (already kind of an anti-fun enemy because it prevents the most powerful strategies in a ham-fisted way)

 

3. Only allowed to use throwing melees which are ineffective against Nullifiers because the shield dome is strong against slow weapons

 

Because of these reasons, I had to resort to a cheap tactic of either having Nyxs that spammed Absorb with Energy Restores or/and Frosts that spammed Snowglobes in front of the rover instead of choosing what was fun or creative. I like how these tactical alerts can change up the gameplay but introducing specific rules but this was far too restrictive and generally required you to be as efficient as possible. The very first tactical, Hyena Facility, is still my favourite and I hope future tactical alerts are like the first one.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Liacu

[Shaden73]

Raid: Make lfg option for raids, where you add requirements: must have conclave...what weapon type, warframe, etc

          Use dark souls mechanics for raid bosses : dodge or die, grabs , destroy him piece by piece.

[Thyriell]

Rewards

There is really no reason for everything considered end-game to be in the void.

No matter how many new mission types or revamps we get, player's won't go there unless there is something unique and useful that can be obtained from such mission in a more efficient or easy way. Having r5 cores, prime parts and duncats, exp, secret rooms (with crates that have a chance to drop rare mods) all in the same place does the whole solar map injustice.

 

People seem to play complex, difficult missions because they want the cookie. Once they get the cookie, they stop playing the complex, difficult missions, and go back to the boring, easy, lucrative ones. Raid sets, DKP, wait times, wipes... I'm worried. That's all.

 

 

Bows

Bows are fine as is. They have their ups and downs, and those who master them will defend them to the death. Myself included. A few more options for bows would be nice, but only if they were mechanically different from the rest. Reskinned hybrid of the Paris and Cernos x Infested bow... Nah.

We don't need more power creep. A bow with a unique mechanic or two would be most welcome; Provided it doesn't out shadow all bows we currently have. Unique mechanics should also mean unique drawbacks.Pun intended.

 

As for snipers, they fill in much the same role as bows, yet are so much worse at it routinely. They don't have the versatility that bows posses at close range, nor the silent and punch through effects.

Sniper rifles shouldn't be made in to a different kind of bow; I think they should retain their focus on long range VIP take downs, but they need to be better at it. Extra crit multiplier, innate crit on headshots/weakspots, lots of damage if aimed correctly.... Thats what they should focus on, IMO.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Thyriell

[MissFairy]

I would like to see more bows in the game because I'm starting to like using them. But I would also like some sniper buffs, snipers can be interesting in the raid missions if the area is huge. People with snipers can hunt down enemies/hit weak spots on the boss or whatever while others distract the boss. Or something like that.

[MikeVodka]

Overtake sounded like a nice concept, but because I wasn't able to play I could only listen to others playing it. The requirement of having to OWN A THROWING WEAPON RIGHT NOW was the real bummer. Took a small break from this game and came back on the day it was ending, and had absolutely NO time to create nor the plat to buy a throwing weapon.

[(PSN)SuperRaySonic]

I am a shocked there are so little votes to puzzles

[Cybernetix]

1. Keep bows purely Tenno. The corpus and grineer have no need for them.

2. That said, keep them coming. A top-tier impact bow built from the Cernos would be a welcome addition.

3. Stay away from enrage timers and lockout mechanics on raids. There is literally no need for them whatsoever.

 

 

When I hear 'raid' I'm hoping that it's just going to mean some high level, 8-player missions with awesome bosses and tons of loot. What I'm scared of is that we're going to end up with something that tries to copy the WoW raid scene and will probably fall flat.

 

 

I am a shocked there are so little votes to puzzles

 

They'll be a novelty for all of five minutes and then people will record all possible solutions. Once that's done every raid will be a speedrun through them to the actual fight.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Cybernetix

[FoxFX]

[DE], please consider my thread on Raids:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/382454-discussions-to-think-about-raid-fights-after-devstream-44/

[Adaptor-Face]

PC players, in your opinion, the Overtake Tactical Alert was…

It was different. It was too hard to complete without "breaking" it, ie. nyx max range absorb. It was not hard because we could not roflstomp them across the map, but because we had no way to dodge the damage coming our way, because no cue on the nullifiers. They have massive single shot damage, hitscan. Give them a cue to when they attack and who they are attacking, my suggestion is: give them an opticor.

And with the coming fixes to host/client accuracy alot of players are going to get surprised with how much damage enemies actually can dish out, and it forces facetanking instead of dodge/quickness, reducing skill. Currently you can dodge with good effects as a client, this does not work AT ALL as host.

[KirukaChan]

I'll drop my feedback for Overtake here, since that was the only poll that wasn't covered by my vote alone.

 

I heard a lot of people talking about how BS it was in terms of difficulty. I also heard some people comment on how easy it was. Me and my usual companion did our two runs without any failures, but that was only due to ability spam (primarily Nyx's Absorb on my part) and consumables spam (both Energy Restores and Specters). While the term is overused, I do believe "fake difficulty" applies here. The perfect difficulty is right around enough to keep players engaged, but not so much that it becomes frustrating.

 

The "theme" of Overtake, the thrown melee, was used very little (since thrown melee does nothing to Nullifiers). While I like the idea of specific equipment restrictions rather than Conclave limits (since Conclave scores aren't even properly balanced for PvP let alone PvE), the missions need to be designed around the use of the specific equipment. For example, a sniper-only mission that involves killing enemies from very far away, a shotgun-only mission that involves fighting enemies up close (perhaps Infested), or a dagger-only mission that involves being very sneaky and taking out enemies quietly with stealth kills.

[Bibliothekar]

Raid Missions: I'd also like raid missions to require multiple/simultaneous objectives at points and that require the team to split into groups from time to time. 

Eg, Further progress is halted as a door is sealed by an energy barrier. 1 or more Tenno must split off from the rest of the team to find the controls to destroy/powerdown the barrier to allow further progress (some parkouring into vents to get there would be cool). Meanwhile, the rest of the team must hold position against increasingly large and difficult waves of enemies till the barrier is removed.

ME2's suicide mission style? I liked that one a lot, having to carefully choose your teams and specialists so you don't lose anyone on the way. Playing that as MP would be really cool.

 

The only problem Overtake has is that  only the host can attack the nullifier through the shield

Wait, so you can throw your melee weapon through their bubble, it just doesn't work for clients? Like 99% of the other bugs in this game?

Edited January 31, 2015 by Bibliothekar

[fatalis92]

Telegraph!


Certain bosses should "telegraph" attacks, maybe not all of their attacks, the truly dangerous ones. Would be wonderfull if you guys at DE took a look on to the Monster Hunter series Capcom, if you didnt already. The monsters there let you know what they are doing, if you really observe them if not youre done - game over - wich i think is awesome, thats how you reward skill in my opinion. Plus is FUN as HEK in that way.
 

Yes the game mentioned is nothing like Warframe, totaly different, BUT! Warframe would get so much better if bosses required actual Skill over Rank 10 mods.

 

AND i hope there will be no KEY to craft for it, half the fun of playing is took away everytime there is something locked behind farming for a key! No Beacons please! x)

Edited January 31, 2015 by fatalis92

[(XBOX)ShygalSadie]

buff snipers make it so when you get a head shot or critical it does 10x damage it would make the gqame more intersting

[StinkyPygmy]

ME2's suicide mission style? I liked that one a lot, having to carefully choose your teams and specialists so you don't lose anyone on the way. Playing that as MP would be really cool.

 

 

Pretty much. Stuff like deciding to send a solo loki to disable the shield and have the majority defend but in turn risking not being able to help the loki if they get in trouble. Tactical objective based play like that. I mean I only suggested one scenario, but I think gameplay centered around multiple, larger and much more engaging objectives would be great. It especially suits 8 player raids as it becomes more then just a race to the finish or who can grab the most kills. Kind if give s a reason to have 8 players and have it not feel like overkill.

[-Narauko-]

Tactical Alert

 

The only problem with the Tactical Alert was that you could climb on top. If we couldn't do that a Nyx with Restores wouldn't be able to solo it.

[RCOAS]

Overtake

I personally really liked this event. Some friends of mine signed a contract on skype that says we're not allowed to use frost and trinity on this mission. We had tons of fun experimenting with different loadouts. Full on Zephyr. Aimbot Mesa Party Truck. Nyx Absorbspam. I know that some solo players are screwed, but this is a coop game. However, I don't like how Frost and Trinity can easily do this mission. It doesn't feel right, spamming 3 over and over again.

[Grimlar]

Bows generally seem ok, a bit more variety wouldnt hurt.

(Piercing melee weapons need the love more though.)

 

-

 

Raids. Ultimately pointless for me unless they can also be played as a solo/pair. Which Im sure many would argue negates the point of it being a raid.

 

I dont really disagree with that opinion. But as this is a game that thrives on players who like to collect/farm/complete stuff. (All hail RNGesus.) I would voice a minor concern about the negative impact of having content that solo players might feel excluded from.

 

-

 

Operation Overtake. Both too hard and too easy. Basically the problem was that it only gave you one realistic option to complete the mission. (Barring warframe/mod choice etc.) So it was too hard until you found out how to do the misison, but once you knew how to do it, it was really easy. Neither experience makes me feel more inclined to play hijack missions.

 

Personally I prefer missions that give players multiple ways to complete them. Encouragement to play different styles is fine, I see that as the main aim of Tactical Alerts, but ultimately if someone wants to go in guns blazing they ought to be able to give it a shot. (Consequences, not restrictions.)

[ShioriShi]

I think the most important thing for the raid bosses would be to give them good AI (this apply to all bosses though). Rather then having them be bulled sponges with invisibility, it would be nice of they where actively doing inteligent stuff to stop you. Dodging from cover to cover, calling in support and taking their time to actualy grind your party down. This would lead to more interesting gameplay all in all and would also make so that teams have to co-op more then rushing ahead as they would not be as certain as to what tactics the boss would employ.

[kazeyama]

Alot of these choices for raids seem dumb to have in warframe. Warframe shouldn't adopt MMO style tropes just for the sake of being like an MMO cause it isn't. Having to stand in a certain spot or have total perfect cooperation for a boss along with needing everyone to be maxed out on gear simply won't work in the drop in fast paces style of warframe. 

 

I don't want to spend an hour long mission killing one giant bullet sponge boss it sounds like a chore more than an interesting gameplay idea. Same with lockouts restricting player freedom is not something warframe wants to borrow along with good game design. Artificially limiting progression is a horrible MMO trope that somehow has become a common thing in games. 

 

Same thing with requiring top tier gear. I don't want raid to require a 5 forma soma prime and any other weapon you can't get into a group. Or needing a specific frame/team setup. Eventually people will find an optimal setup to complete the missions regardless, but don't create content with the goal of restricting player choice and preference from the get go. I never liked raiding as a concept in an MMO because it quickly turns from a challenge into something incredibly repetitive and monotonous. A typical mmo raid sounds about as antithetical to the warframe gameplay as possible. If I want to play WoW, SWTOR, or any other MMO those already exist don't ruin the core gameplay of warframe just for the sake of trying to satisfy complaints about a mythical end game that will never be truly satisfied regardless of what content you produce. 

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

 

 

 

Well... here goes.

 

Raid Mechanics:

Special boss fights and puzzles are a given. I want to see scenarios that take advantage of the increased number of players, rather than scenarios that throw out beefed up stats of the same damn thing with increased spawns as the only things that differentiate "raids" from normal four-person missions. Exclusive rewards would be really crappy right now, because a) some people can't manage more than one or two people, and b) raids should be end-game, not the gateway to the next step up from end-game. We should be at the pinnacle of our power when raiding. Extra rewards are a must, but they can be more mundane things, like increased credits, resources, and perhaps even rare-ish items like forma and Void Keys. Any "unique" loot that eventually gets implemented should be cosmetic in nature. 

 

Raid Bosses:

Team coordination and phases, naturally. I'd really like to see Warframe get some bosses built around action mechanics rather than conventional mmo/turn-based mechanics where Tenno phase in and out of being able to damage it. It's okay to have some portions of the boss be enormously resistant to damage, and other parts be weaker, but it really sucks to have times during boss fights when all you're doing is sitting there waiting for the opportunity to shoot again. Keep the combat flowing, please. Look at games like Devil May Cry 1-4 for inspiration... you can hammer away at most bosses as much as you like, but it's only when you fulfill certain conditions that you're able to deal substantial damage at once. This is what bosses should feel like in Warframe in general, not just in raids. Raid bosses should simply be ginormous and epic in scale. 

 

Attack Telegraphs:

More enemies should telegraph their attacks, and the enemies that already do should be looked at/adjusted. Attack telegraphs are good to have in action games, but players kind of need the agency mechanics to take advantage of those telegraphs. Give us real dodge rolls, more responsive blocks, and make sure that telegraphed attacks are devastating, while non-telegraphed attacks are not.

 

Void Rewards:

Void rewards should stay in the void. The void should be re-written to be more consistent with the lore. Why do Control Modules drop there? Control Modules are not Orokin creations! That, and stop padding the drop tables with irritating rewards, please. 
a) Fusion cores need to come in bundles of at least 5.

b) Orokin Cells need to come in bundles of at least 3.

c) Rewards should have progressively decreasing chances of repeating, and both repeat chance and quantity should scale with Tower level.

 

Overtake:

This mission wasn't too hard, it was the wrong kind of hard. It's time for you guys to take a long, hard look at why the only way you can effectively challenge us is by spamming your most annoying enemies at us en-mass and stripping us of everything that makes us powerful. We're too strong to be challenged fairly. Make us weaker, but keep things fair.

 

If you're going to absolutely insist on making the "challenge" come from puzzle-solving with mod cards that spell out how to succeed, then try giving us temporary customized sets of things we can use during the mission. Restrict our gear to what you give us at the ranks you give them to us. Give us a selection and see how we can put things together to succeed. Go ahead and give us the puzzle. Just make sure we have all the puzzle pieces.

 

Bows:

Eh. Bows aren't underpowered. Bow's aren't ridiculously overpowered. If you've got some nice new designs in the pipeline, let's have 'em. If not, I don't think we're in any desperate need of new bows for the time being. 

I quote what this guy said as my feedback.

[Sherbniz]

Raids:

Well a bit of everything I suppose!

 

> A good incentive to go there and to get people organized: good rewards that stay relevant.

> Engaging Mechanics that pose a choice and consequences... for instance:

 

 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/378492-updated-29115suggestion-explaination-gif-sniper-visualization-or-how-to-make-snipers-fairer/

[Sherbniz]

As for telegraphing, I'd like to point towards this thread:

 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/378492-updated-29115suggestion-explaination-gif-sniper-visualization-or-how-to-make-snipers-fairer/

 

It didn't generate that much momentuum, but I tried to collect some ideas for this exact purpose.

 

I'll edit this with answers to the other questions soon!

[Chroia]

 

 

<Quoted DiabolusUrsus>

 

I quote what this guy said as my feedback.

Yup. +1

 

 

Beyond that:

Raids Expectations

This goes back to "What kind of game is Warframe supposed to be?"

I want Warframe to be a 'Skill>Gear' game.

I'd settle for it being a 'Skill>Gear within tier', except that there's no structured gear tiering in Warframe. And it suffers from this, imo.

I wouldn't be surprised if Warframe becomes a 'Gear>all' game. In the world of 'games as an ongoing developement/income source', Skinner Box gear treadmills are known to work.

Yes, I'm cynical.

 

In addition to supporting 8 players, what else do you expect/want from Warframe raids? (can select more than one)

-> Other

I have no specific requirements from "raid" content aside from it being entertaining; and preferably engaging.

How you go about that is your business.

 

Also, timed lockouts are almost invariably used as artificial longevity inflation.

There's some merit in forcing people who can't self-moderate from 'overdoing' it and burning themselves out.

But using them to as straight-up delays? To me that's a deal-breaker. It says the game developer feels they need it to keep people playing.

Weighted drops and RNG (and no recourse from it) I dislike but can understand and accept.

Time-lock raids will either make me opt out or stop playing, depending on implementation and implications.

 

 

What do you expect from a Warframe raid boss? (can select more than one)

-> Requires team coordination to defeat

-> Requires mastering special mechanics to defeat.

-> Other

That's what I'd like to see.

Requiring 'top tier gear' and 'requiring raid gear' are the exact same thing, only difference being how hard it is to get; and are both part of the Skinner Box gear treadmill-type games. This is less likely to whet my appetite and more likely to get me to stop playing. But that's just me.

Boss time limits and numerous phases are commonplace optional mechanics. I have no problem with them, and no specific need for them.

If they enhance the boss fight - go for it! But don't just shoehorn them in because 'well, it's a boss fight...'.

 

 

Do you think more enemies should telegraph their attacks? (see topic below for explanation)

-> Only certain enemies should telegraph (ie; Nullifiers and/or bosses).

The only attacks that need to be telegraphed are unusually punishing ones. (CC, instagibs, the old Disruptor 100% Magnetic slap, etc.)

The reason being: Clarity of lesson.

Dying in games is part of learning. Just ask any Roguelike.

But for it to be a lesson, something that the player can learn from rather than being a random under-the-hood 'Save or Die', it needs to be clearly evident what the player did wrong.

And doing it well is the mark of a good game.

 

Case in point:

I was doing a T4D on Thursday with a full squad. Was going just fine.

Then suddenly everyone starts dropping for no apparent reason.

After everyone'd been downed at least twice (and one person had to revive), someone finally spotted the Corrupted Bombard and killed it.

Wasn't me, I never saw the damned thing, or any of its rockets for that matter. Only reason I (think I) know that's what happened is that that one guy told me so when I went 'wtf is going on here? >_<' '

 

 

 

Should some void rewards be moved to different mission types outside the void?

Yes? No?

-> No opinion on this topic.

What would be the point?

A reward that has a 7% drop rate in its current pool wouldn't be any more likely to drop simply because it was moved to a different pool.

My issue here is twofold: Junk rewards, and the unreliability of keys on top of their consumable nature.

 

Say I want to run a T3MD. I have no method that even pretends to grant me one in any predictable time-scale.

So I go off to do 'hard' Excavations/Survivals. (They do still have assured T3 keys in Rot B, right?)

gl getting the right one.

gl getting more than one of the right one.

Further, I may have 50+ T1MD, 30+T2MD, 10+T4MD and a total of 200ish T3 keys. Makes no difference, either.

I have no problem with consumable keys, if I had any semi-reliable method of getting the one I want more-or-less when I want it.

 

Alternatively, say I'm looking for, oh idk, a Scindo Blade. (Wonder where that example came from...)

I have to run T3MDs, like it or not, because that is the pool that reward's tied to.

 

Remove the junk rewards from the reward pools and either

A) Give me a semi-reliable, predictable method of gathering specific keys, or

B) Uncouple specific rewards from specific missions. e.g. 'I'm running for a <Prime part>, which I select while in the Lobby. I can run anything for it, with varying levels drop-chance (and maybe certain missions are more or less likely to give me it) vs anything else (or the preset reward pool).'

 

There's also the aspect of 'overexposure' to the enemy faction and the tileset, but I find the Corrupted to be the most entertaining to fight against (before they got Bombards, anyway) on account of their being the most variable faction.

 

 

PC players, in your opinion, the Overtake Tactical Alert was…

both trivially cheeseable, and way too hard. (Not difficult, hard.)

The combination of Nullifer bubbles + multiple nullifiers + thrown weapons only was not appreciated, and encouraged cheesing the mission.

'All right Runners! The Marathon is about to being! Everyone take your places... and wait while we cuff your feet together.'

If you insist on melee vs double-bubble Nullifiers (Arctic? Really?), we would have been better served with a 'melee' limitation.

At least then we'd be decently equipped when we had to run inside the globes to melee the Nullifers to (someone's) death.

 

Voted: Other

 

PC players, How did the Overtake tactical alert compare to previous tactical alerts?

I may be misrecalling, but while previous TAs could be cheesed by (e.g.) going Rhino/Boltor and unequipping everything else, it was reasonable possible to complete them 'normally'.

(I'm specifically thinking of the Christmas trio.)

Or, in other words: No other TA, as I recall it, so strongly encouraged players to cheese it.

 

Voted: Overtake was worse than previous tactical alerts.

I have no problem with any individual aspect of Overtake (Hijack, Cold hazard, Arctic Nullifiers, Thrown Melee only), it was the compounded result of all of them together that I found excessive.

 

Console players, do you feel prepared/excited for the Overtake tactical alert?

-> No opinion. I'm purely a PC player.

 

 

In your opinion, how do bows compare to other weapon types overall?

Way too unspecific a question.

What situation are we comparing them in?

Star chart? Level 60+ endless content? Skill ceiling? Ease of use? Damage output? ... Taking down a Nullifier bubble?

I have nothing new to say about Bows in general; it's all been said before.

Bows are the true sniper weapon in this game.

This game isn't very conducive to snipers.

 

Voted: Overall, bows are more powerful than some other weapon types, but they're all correct.

Generally speaking, bows are better than shotguns, worse than rifles, and in a different constellation from launchers.

 

Would you like to see more bows added to the Warframe arsenal?

-> No opinion on this topic.

Don't care either way, but first straighten out what you intend vis-à-vis Bows vs. Snipers.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Chroia