The New Utility Mod Slot, It's Actually Backwards Thinking And A Band Aid Solution

[7grims]

You can point out problems all you want but that doesnt make a solution to said problem appear like magic either

 

You need solutions to fix problems

 

Like i said, I pointed out the problem.

 

So as far as being ahead, I figured out there is a problem, before this, we were all blindly celebrating it.

And no, I wont post solutions, its not the point of this tread.

[Arenzo4]

Thr problem with most forums is if #1 is the only thing in the thread then most people will shrug it off as complaining

[Alphafox]

Yup it's literally another band aid. Some things could be made added to the default gameplay, like handspring. Just make it a mechanic in the game and reward players for getting it right.

 

Less mods and more functionality  please.

[PookieNumnums]

So are we forgetting about dmg combination types as well as ability affecting mods like power strenght efficiency range duration?

Edited July 25, 2015 by PookieNumnums

[7grims]

Removing "essential" mods has been talked about for a while, but as that isn't likely to happen, one option might be to revalue mods closer to their true worth, and be less restrictive on mod slots.  This would require adjustments to mod points given as well.

 

eg:  say you get 4 points per level, doubled to 8 for potato.  Level 30 = 120 / 240.

 

Then "essential" mods get their drain values increased, say 80-100 points (so slight more expensive than currently).  

Damage mods get a straight 4x increase to 28-44 (so no net change).

Utility mods, would then be quite cheap to throw on, and you could have 4+ utility mods for the price of one Serration, Multishot, etc

 

Given this wouldn't work with the current 8 mod-slot system, it'd either need to be something like "mods less than 15 points don't use one of the slot limits", or something.

 

Yes i've not thought this through properly, before it gets pulled apart, but something to rebalance drain costs may make utility mods more appreciated also.

 

I like this.

Seems a like proper way of re-imagining the mod system.

Instead of mod slots restrictions plus mod points restrictions, we could have something more progressive that could give more room for choice.

+1

Edited July 25, 2015 by 7grims

[wolf96781]

While I totally agree I need to bring this up.

 

 

What would YOU do to solve this? DE is trying, but I don't hear helping.

[Wurdyburd]

The number of people demanding that OP provide a better system than the currently existing one is unbelievable. An art critic doesn't need to know how to paint to know that a painting sucks and needs to be taken off the wall.

 

That said, people want a better solution? Here's a better solution:

Make weapon damage tied to weapon level. Give it a slider, from 1-30, so you can decrease damage if you want to, which would in turn exchange damage points for Utility points, such as different types of rounds, a larger magazine, faster fire rate, etc.

At first glance it's easy to dismiss said system as no better than the current one, as specific point allocations designed to maximize weapon potential will arise, but if the system is designed well enough, each gun will have multiple 'maximized potential' loadouts.

 

Alternatively DE can pull a note from Guild Wars and make everyone's frames/weapons/abilities the same at max level, so that nobody is put ahead or left behind, and we can finally focus on team play. Much more difficult to implement, but the system is proven to work.

[Hypernaut1]

Everyone has this idealized "perfect mod system" in their heads. Truth is, whatever system you could come up with may have just as many problems, one way or the other.

 

while i didnt like the idea of adding more slots, im glad it at least still uses up mod points. Personally, i wouldve prefered if they made utility mods more entcing instead of just throwing us a slot, but this may work out in the long run.

 

i just hope they dont start throwing augment slots at us too. Modding is more engaging when you have choices to make and get to discover what works best.

[DoomsDayDan]

so do you want a stat upgrade tree and a set of utility slots?

This would be a much better progression model than what we currently have, too bad we'll never get it because they've dug themselves into a hole with all these rank 10 and rare mods nobody wants to lose

[7grims]

So are we forgetting about dmg combination types as well as ability affecting mods like power strenght efficiency range duration?

 

The "serration" problematic is very tricky indeed.

I thought in the past such things as element mods, and strength, or even continuity/duration mods should also be gone.

But, not all the frames needed strength, nor all the frames rely on continuity or duration.

And even though element mods create diversity, they are all immediate replacements for serration, multishot, heavy caliber, etc.

It's damn tricky.

[7grims]

While I totally agree I need to bring this up.

 

 

What would YOU do to solve this? DE is trying, but I don't hear helping.

 

ur not the first to state that.

yet again, its not a solution/feedback/suggestion tread, its general discussion, and I'm only pointing a problem, that otherwise is just a feature we were all blindly celebrating, whiteout noticing whats under the ice berg.

Edited July 25, 2015 by 7grims

[Arenzo4]

The "serration" problematic is very tricky indeed.

I thought in the past such things as element mods, and strength, or even continuity/duration mods should also be gone.

But, not all the frames needed strength, nor all the frames rely on continuity or duration.

And even though element mods create diversity, they are all immediate replacements for serration, multishot, heavy caliber, etc.

It's damn tricky.

if all the damage/elemental mods were gone people would just mod for whatever shoots the fastest or can shoot the longest amount of time

Edited July 25, 2015 by Arenzo4

[tutzdes]

Like i said, I pointed out the problem.

 

 

So as far as being ahead, I figured out there is a problem, before this, we were all blindly celebrating it.

And no, I wont post solutions, its not the point of this tread

You believe you figured out the problem. The basis of your belief is that you think that you know how the mod system works and what are the reasons beyond its implementation. You would be right if the sole reason of Mod system to exist was the build diversity.

 

If we for a second assume that leveling the essential mods gives us some long-term sense of progression, existence of these couldn't be considered a "problem". More so, some people will be pissed that their sign of accomplishment and reward for their dedication, maxed Serration, Vitality, Blind Rage, Narrow Minded, Primed Point Blank is gone.

The second point is that for each specific task in hand there IS one ultimate build for warframe/weapon, which is the most efficient and other builds are more of "fun builds". For various task there is plethora of builds already (less so for weapons, more for warframes).

My point: the current state is ok, the system IS NOT a problem. It's just can be done better (as all the things under the sun are) and DE actually try and do their best to improve the game. That's why we love it. So, with this in mind, pointing out the "problems" is a pointless thing to do without proposing a "solution", i.e. the way to improve already nice current state. Utility mod slot is a step in a direction of more variety. We think it's for the better and we'll see if it will be better in reality, or not.

[Lost_Cartographer]

The utility mod slot is a quick fix to a deeper problem that will require some real excavating to fix.  And by that, I mean pretty much rehashing the whole game.

[Buzkyl]

The utility mod slot is a quick fix to a deeper problem that will require some real excavating to fix.  And by that, I mean pretty much rehashing the whole game.

 

We have seen DE:

 

We have seen various warframe 2.0's

Melee 2.0

even a complete change on how Damage works from the old system of armour ignore or GTFO

To add onto the list a complete revamp of Parkour.

 

 

To say that affecting the modding system will be like "rehasing the whole game" doesn't make sense as every major 2.0 fundementally changes the game, melee 2.0, damage 2.0 and now parkour 2.0 changed the way people play the game.

 

 

Mod 2.0 will not be any different, will it be tough? Yes. But that hasn't stopped them in the past.

 

 

I both Agree and Disagree with OP. I gladly believe we  needed special mod slot for utilitarian purposes so i gladly welcome the extra slot. However, i do agree that at this current time it is a bandaid.

 

70% of utility mods are either useless, take up too much mod space or are to underpowered to warrant use.

 

 

Mods which affect abilities such as efficiency, range and power strength need to be changed from the current modding system. They are like serration, you will need them and because of that builds nromally cannot fit space for other mods. And even if you did move them, you would need to buff a variety of other mods effect to warrant usage. for such massive mmod cost, Masterthief is horrible and the kubrow version is much better, as an example.

[Katinka]

Personally I don't think half the 'essential' mods are actually as essential as people think.  A lot of my frames now run with just Vigor rather than Redirection & Vitality.  Not all my frames min/max for Strength.  Not all min/max  Range.  Some actually have a balance with a bit of everything that I find works okay for most missions.  Sure I'll be using the new slot for Rush on most of them but that's because I already have Rush in them and I know it'll be an option, leaving a free slot for anything, then I'll think about how to adapt my build.  

 

As to the matter of Serration, Split Chamber etc. you could run through the entire list of mods for Primaries and I'm pretty sure they can all boiled down to how they affect DPS.  When do you start calling them 'utility'?  If you were to trim down the primary mods, at what point would you decide that you had ones that give the player 'real choice' and aren't just going to lead to optimal builds?  Currently we have the choice of element types but even that is usually just considered for what will do most damage (while any who mention the various status effects get laughed at).

[vashyoung]

like DE will delete all the mods for the sake of refactoring the whole system, nope thats not gonna happen, this feature are already at the pinnacle, all they have to do is add something new until such time that all of there plans are implemented and the game will end in a 5year span, then maybe a sequel warframe 2 your idea might be included hopefully... lol

[Hypernaut1]

The more i think about it, the better i feel about the utility slot. Truth is utility mods can not compete with stat mods unless they gave ridiculous advantages. DE needed to create a system for utility mods to compete amongst themselves. This actually gives us more choices to make now, which is good in my eyes. I hope DE still decided to make more enticing utility mods though, because right now its just a choice between handspring or Rush.

The most annoying thing to me now is the placement of the utility spot. They definitely need to polish this. It shouldnt sit even next to the aura slot. The aura slot adds mod points and is shared among players. The utility mods shouldnt share its hierarchy design wise. It needs to be off to the side or something.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Hypernaut1

[PookieNumnums]

The "serration" problematic is very tricky indeed.

I thought in the past such things as element mods, and strength, or even continuity/duration mods should also be gone.

But, not all the frames needed strength, nor all the frames rely on continuity or duration.

And even though element mods create diversity, they are all immediate replacements for serration, multishot, heavy caliber, etc.

It's damn tricky.

They aren't immediate replacements because they go on first and affect them.

While I'm not completely against weapon level affecting damage the arguement arises that firing a gun more doesn't make it shoot harder so rank of affinity shouldn't affect output directly.

We are essentially putting technical modifications to the weapons which I acknowledge is silly being shared among weapons removed and reapplied at will.

Perhaps making weapons mods permanent, easier to fuse up, and increase the mod slots to whatever the capacity will hold when maxed and completely formad.

Slots would be an issue with that but meh plat can be earned in trade

If it's easier to rank mods the idea of losing mod progress with less cost and core refund a lot easier to stomach

Edited July 25, 2015 by PookieNumnums

[Hypernaut1]

Personally I don't think half the 'essential' mods are actually as essential as people think.  A lot of my frames now run with just Vigor rather than Redirection & Vitality.  Not all my frames min/max for Strength.  Not all min/max  Range.  Some actually have a balance with a bit of everything that I find works okay for most missions.  Sure I'll be using the new slot for Rush on most of them but that's because I already have Rush in them and I know it'll be an option, leaving a free slot for anything, then I'll think about how to adapt my build.  

 

As to the matter of Serration, Split Chamber etc. you could run through the entire list of mods for Primaries and I'm pretty sure they can all boiled down to how they affect DPS.  When do you start calling them 'utility'?  If you were to trim down the primary mods, at what point would you decide that you had ones that give the player 'real choice' and aren't just going to lead to optimal builds?  Currently we have the choice of element types but even that is usually just considered for what will do most damage (while any who mention the various status effects get laughed at).

IMO, the problem with serration is that it gives too much of a boost in strength- but i like how its a mod that shows progression. I think multi-shot mods need to go though, have a bigger drawback, or should be capped at 50%. It should be a choice between "random burst in damage" or "consistent damage"- not just a mod you slot to double crit, stat and dmg all at once.

[Shehriazad]

Well....all DE needs to do is Man-Up and remove weapon main damage and Warframe basic health/shield mods. Obviously those stats would have to be given back to the Warframes naturally.


For some reason the very thought of that seems to scare DE even though they could just reimburse everyone for the destroyed mods (or don't reimburse...it's a beta...change is expected)


Things like these are the very reason why the game still carries a beta tag. It has been going on for WAY too long but DE won't fix this longstanding problem.

There is no gameplay enhancing value in mods like Serration and Vitality/Redirection...all they do is put a burden on new players and veterans alike. New players because they're forced to grab the mods as soon as possible and max them as fast as they can (what a fun task that is, eh?) and Veterans because build options get reduced by the fact that these mods are way too mandatory (with very few exceptions).






Buuuuuuut....Utility slot at least gives us back SOME more build options and decisionmaking there...assuming enough mods actually fit in there.

[Shimonoki_Ryuji]

Utility slot sure is a good thing. Now i can use Handspring or Rush now, if it doesn't take too much capacity. Wouldn't want to forma all my 20+ frames for that.

 

Merging flat base damage mods and multishot mods with the weapon itself would be a nice change, cause they're required in every single build anyway. I'd like to use reload/ammo/proj.speed mods, if i had enough space, which i don't.

 

As for augments - i hate them taking precious slots. I'd rather they are a part of a giant skill tree with augments, passives and other stuff.

 

To make some fundamental mods unnecessary, the only way to do it, is to stop enemy scaling at some point. If one has to keep farming hi-lvl endless crap, fundamental mods are a must to stay alive. Ridiculous drop tables are the most evil thing here, but the most profitable.

Also it's important to make worthwile not only killing, but doing various side-objectives. Until then, it's gonna stay as it is, unfortunately.

[Omnimorph]

There is nothing drastically wrong with the mod system at all, and the utility slot is an idea that's long overdue.  So is an Augment slot.

 

There are quite sufficient "hard choices" with the 8 slots we have, in terms of min-maxing vis-a-vis the Frame abilities.  There are very few slam-dunk builds for any frame, there are definite pros and cons, sacrifices and gains, and numerous possible effective builds with every frame.

 

But it's always been the case that min-maxing for frame/weapon effectiveness, regardless of build, has been too tight to "afford" any utility - the utility mods have always been far too weak to figure into the cost, so they're largely unused, bar a few enthusiasts here and there.  Same with most of the Augments, in fact (bar a few noticeably effective and gameplay-affecting - therefore build-affecting - augs like Resonance, etc.).  All the variant builds for any given frame are usually too tight to afford the minimal impact most of the Augments have on playstyle.

 

None of that delicious hard choosery is lost by having a utility slot.  Nor would it be lost by having an Augment slot.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Omnimorph

[BETAOPTICS]

While I agree with your point here OP, it can be solved by this way as well. The question arises which system is the best? One issue I had thinking about this was that there might now be a mod capacity limitation and how much dedicated work will be required to maximize a Warframe now? It is already a bit of work for your average player. And weapons? Don't get me started on weapons if that would also extend there too.

I am not saying I do not like this, or that i have a too much of an issue necessarily with how there are necessary mods right now either but the issue I would have personally, would be with how we can achieve these goals and how it scales between different player demographics.

[7grims]

The second point is that for each specific task in hand there IS one ultimate build for warframe/weapon, which is the most efficient and other builds are more of "fun builds". 

 

That is the big problem in case u didn't realize it.

Everything is meta, its all about only having the best weapons and the best builds.

 

There is no point, or its counter productive for DE to keep adding stuff, if it isnt used or if its weaker.

 

For a system that only makes us obsess about meta, then a skill tree would have been more accurate (and i dont want nor im defending the return of a skill tree system).

But the fact is DE made an awesome mod system, sadly it is tainted with meta mods.

For weapons I only need 1 or 2 builds to win any content of the game.

For frames I have 3 to 4 mods, that are present in all the builds, and the rest isnt diversity or my own choice, its what adapts or what that frame needs to beat the meta content.

 

So the new utility slot, its great and awesome, as much as it ignores and avoids the same old core problems we always had.

Edited July 25, 2015 by 7grims