I Feel Like These Forums Are Mostly A Waste Of Time Since We Are Almost Never Heard.

[7grims]

Not even sure they read the bug posts either, I have some ongoing bugs since U14 and reported many in both the support tickets and also in the forums.

Plus I have seen some bugs treads being posted over and over again by many ppl, after months I saw a dev replying in one of those bug treads, stating they were not aware of those bugs.

 

Anyway, the forums dont work, partially because of the community that makes thousands of post even though there are mastertreads or official "issue" tread and yet they start new treads, the other part is also at DE's fault, the way the forums are made is impractical to search treads or for them to manage them, and it seems they are very few devs in community management, compared to the so many treads.

They created a monster called "DE listens to their players base" and afterwards they don't have means to actually listen to it.

Edited August 7, 2015 by 7grims

[DJ_Vauban]

You also have to remember that sometimes things like X, which are a terrible ideas actually, are getting upvoted by a lot of players, BUT sometimes, those are not the majority of the community, the rest might not even know about the thread.

 

Let's try to explain it this way, these are JUST examples:

 

1: Person A suggests that we add cooldowns to powers in a thread

 

2: Group A likes this idea and upvotes it, 100 upvotes already

 

3: Group B, which is that part of the community who is actually on the forums, does NOT like the idea, but since there is no downvote option, get less attention that those 100 upvotes, probably.

 

4: Group C is that group of players, who just doesn't see the thread and therefor, doesn't show their opinions about the idea

 

5: Group D is the rest of the community who does not visit the forums and is probably the biggest group of the players, they don't even know what's going on

 

6: DE visits that thread and notices the 100 upvotes, but then they remember that this is only group A, the majority of players either doesn't like or doesn't even know about it, now they have to think if they even consider adding cooldowns or not.

 

7: DE now either:

 

A: implements it anyway, not worrying too much about the possible outcome

 

B: Puts it aside for later

 

C: Forgets about it completely

D: Explains why they don't implement it, don't like it etc

 

That explanation was probably totally wrong and totally S#&$ty but I tried my best to explain as to why some things get implemented or not, etc etc <w<; if anyone get's what I was trying to say, help me to improve this post

Edited August 7, 2015 by DJ_Vauban

[Kestral9999]

no such thread exists, de likes to feel special and original so they tend to avoid using anything that is popular opinion so they don't have to revoke their make believe special snowflake status. besides if they went listening to our good ideas it'd suggest we were some sort of equals or nearly such, le gasp.

I don't even know what you're on about.

 

DE has implemented countless changes built around player feedback. They're quite transparent with their development process considering they livestream their new changes for over an hour every two weeks in these little things called Devstreams. They've also implemented multiple items that were created by fans. Silva & Aegis, Kronen, Saryn, Mios, Riot Moas, all come to mind.

 

I don't play many online games (which is where participating on the forums is actually a thing), but with Hawken listening to player feedback and making changes from there was actually a thing back when the devs where actively working on the game.

I'm not saying there aren't other developers out there that are in tune with their playerbase, but DE does a great job at making sure that players know what's coming, what they're working on, and that they care about their fans. Compare DE to a more opaque developer like Bungie and I'll take DE over them any day. At least DE doesn't outright lie to us.

 

And before anyone tries to throw the whole "Baro's next primed mod" deal at me, that wasn't even confirmed to be coming this visit, don't even bring it up.

 

No, they aren't the absolute best. Yes, there are areas where they can improve. That doesn't mean they don't deserve credit where it's due.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Kestral9999

[Kestral9999]

You also have to remember that sometimes things like X, which are a terrible ideas actually, are getting upvoted by a lot of players, BUT sometimes, those are not the majority of the community, the rest might not even know about the thread.

 

Let's try to explain it this way, these are JUST examples:

 

1: Person A suggests that we add cooldowns to powers in a thread

 

2: Group A likes this idea and upvotes it, 100 upvotes already

 

3: Group B, which is that part of the community who is actually on the forums, does NOT like the idea, but since there is no downvote option, get less attention that those 100 upvotes, probably.

 

4: Group C is that group of players, who just doesn't see the thread and therefor, doesn't show their opinions about the idea

 

5: Group D is the rest of the community who does not visit the forums and is probably the biggest group of the players, they don't even know what's going on

 

6: DE visits that thread and notices the 100 upvotes, but then they remember that this is only group A, the majority of players either doesn't like or doesn't even know about it, now they have to think if they even consider adding cooldowns or not.

 

7: DE now either:

 

A: implements it anyway, not worrying too much about the possible outcome

 

B: Puts it aside for later

 

C: Forgets about it completely

D: Explains why they don't implement it, don't like it etc

 

That explanation was probably totally wrong and totally S#&$ty but I tried my best to explain as to why some things get implemented or not, etc etc <w<;

That's actually rather succinct. Good job.

 

Making a change for the entire playerbase around the suggestions and affirmations of a small percentage of the total playerbase is downright asinine. They need to protect the integrity of their game while also letting players know that their voices are heard. Maybe not every little topic you start or comment you leave will be picked up by a member of DE's staff. But overall, rest assured that if you have a groundbreaking suggestion for how to improve the game it will get attention in one way or another.

 

DE simply needs to add a way to let players know that their input has been seen, even if it's not going to end up making an impact on the game.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Kestral9999

[Cubewano]

I don't even know what you're on about.

 

DE has implemented countless changes built around player feedback, they're quite transparent with their development process considering they livestream their new changes for over an hour every two weeks in these little things called Devstreams. They've also implemented multiple items that were created by fans. Silva & Aegis, Kronen, Saryn, Mios, Riot Moas, all come to mind.

care to share some of these alterations de has done based on player feedback, and no i don't mean we say something is broken and de goes freestyle on the repairs, list some times where de legitimately takes player feedback and applies part of it to the actual repair process. And with all the concepts they use they tend to only loosely adapt them, like the riot moas who were meant to be slowly moving tank units that could be ridden by npcs or even tenno alike, but how did they end up? super fast, with spammable knock down, and no mounting mechanic. Anything close to core mechanics is completely dismissed on the community, sure they might listen to us about a design (and even then that could be taken with a grain of salt), but anything of actual matter de seems to care little of our input on. 

[Archistopheles]

I wonder if that's why they got rid of the ability to see who was reading what.  Used to be able to see who was actively viewing your thread.

 

That's my guess. Not only could you see if a staffer was reading your thread, but you could also see their name, which lead to them being "called out." I think a more anonymous indication would be better for both player and dev.

[AM-Bunny]

Most the feedback that we give isn't worth considering seriously, unfortunately.

 

A decent chunk of this embarrassment of a community seems incapable of providing any insight that extends beyond their own personal goals and agendas, never paying a thought to what decisions might benefit the game in the long run, for future generations of players -- even if it means giving something up on a personal level.

 

A good example would be the change a while back to the Syndicate Void Key offerings. The devs came to a decision that the pricing and availability of T4 keys was far too generous, and made an attempt to involve the community by giving us a poll that provided possible replacements. Of course none of these options were as generous as what we had at the time, because that was the intent of the change. I have seldom seen as much hostility as I did in that thread, as people outraged, comparing the choice to "cutting off your arm or your leg" and insisting that we keep the Key offerings that we had currently. The community will never accept anything that could harm their convenience.

 

A more recent example might be the Natah quest. Personally, I like the RNG aspect of it. Most people were eagerly awaiting U17, and of course were disappointed they couldn't dive right into the Quest. However, imagine as a new player, working their way through the current quests and the Solar Chart, how exhilarating it would be to encounter the Oculyst and the ensuing Quest. It would be similar to the thrill of your first encounter with The Stalker. This is the perception that people seem to lack: the game as a whole. 

 

Sorry for ranting, these topics get to me.

[IfritKajiTora]

DE only picks what they like.

Nope. They cant write everything, so they read only these which have the most of LIKES!

This forum community ignore too much content and hate too many good ideas. And its just being ignored by devs because of BAD WARFRAME FORUM COMMUNITY

Like for the TOPIC!

[Kestral9999]

care to share some of these alterations de has done based on player feedback, and no i don't mean we say something is broken and de goes freestyle on the repairs, list some times where de legitimately takes player feedback and applies part of it to the actual repair process. And with all the concepts they use they tend to only loosely adapt them, like the riot moas who were meant to be slowly moving tank units that could be ridden by npcs or even tenno alike, but how did they end up? super fast, with spammable knock down, and no mounting mechanic. Anything close to core mechanics is completely dismissed on the community, sure they might listen to us about a design (and even then that could be taken with a grain of salt), but anything of actual matter de seems to care little of our input on. 

Your complaint that they take creative liberty with their implementation is pretty negligible. It's their game. Not ours. Plain and simple. Anything going in is going to be altered in some way or another to suit their specifications. We don't have creative authority, and if we did this game would be a steaming pile by now.

 

I'm not here to humor you with research during my working hours. But needless to say, I've seen plenty of suggestions that made it into the game in some form or another. Pretty much anything TennoGen is a perfect example of literal implementation and the creators even get proceeds from the sales! Liset battles turned into Archwing, desires for a dragon themed frame turned into Chroma, removal of ability mods turned into progressively unlocked abilities, evolving powers turned into augment mods, augment slots turned into Exilus slots, social hubs turned into Relays, weapon testing range turned into the Simulacrum, Syndicates spawned from players' desire for more radiant endgame, Kubrow Armor was a fairly common suggestion that was implemented, Catbrows were a popular desire from feline lovers myself included, and I followed multiple threads regarding parkour needing to be revamped. These are just a few examples.

 

I'm not pretending like they take people's ultra popular suggestions and implement them exactly as they were written nor am I pretending that every implementation is perfect or better than it was originally written. But they're implemented in some way or another, and that's more than I can say for most forums/communities I've been involved with.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Kestral9999

[Hatzeputt]

People feel they are rarely heard because 99% of their suggestions would be catastrophic to one game aspect or the other. Most people have to look up the word balance in the dictionary and have no clue and no shred of common sense. I mean people do suggest things like Vectic P should have 50% base crit, 3.0 base crit modifier on top of like 500 base damage and other ludicrous suggestions like that. 

 

Generally speaking, there is a reason why people do game developing for a living and others are just wanna be amateurs. 

 

That is why most "feedback" goes through seemingly unheard while it is actually heard or rather read but it either is catastrophically bad, does not fit the road map or is taken into consideration for future development. Sometimes things take time. 

 

Also players requested Braton P buff, it got buffed, players requested Supra buff, it got buffed, so yes we are indeed heard or read.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Hatzeputt

[Cubewano]

Your complaint that they take creative liberty with their implementation is pretty negligible. It's their game. Not ours. Plain and simple. Anything going in is going to be altered in some way or another to suit their specifications. We don't have creative authority, and if we did this game would be a steaming pile by now.

 

I'm not here to humor you with research during my working hours. Needless to say, I've seen plenty of suggestions that made it into the game in some form or another. Liset battles turned into Archwing, desires for a dragon themed frame turned into Chroma, removal of ability mods turned into progressively unlocked abilities, evolving powers turned into augment mods, augment slots turned into Exilus slots, social hubs turned into Relays, weapon testing range turned into the Simulacrum, Syndicates spawned from players' desire for more radiant endgame, Kubrow Armor was a fairly common suggestion that was implemented, Catbrows were a popular desire from feline lovers myself included, and I followed multiple threads regarding parkour needing to be revamped. These are just a few examples.

 

I'm not pretending like they take people's ultra popular suggestions and implement them exactly as they were written nor am I pretending that every implementation is perfect or better than it was originally written. But they're implemented in some way or another, and that's more than I can say for most forums/communities I've been involved with.

Using the excuse its their game to dismiss any kind of feedback is possibly the most worthless thing you can say in a discussion board. No crap it's their game, doesn't mean they can't screw it up or that we can't dislike what they have done. Just because you make something doesn't mean you always know right and are a being of absolute perfection within all that area pertains to.

 

On another note, everything you've offered here are very broad instances, which I implicitly stated I wasn't looking for, give me actual mechanics that have been derived from the players, fixes that the community inspired, what frames have been given buffs the community suggested, what weapons have been altered based on community suggestions on how they could be made vastly better? Not when de made a frame loosely off of player art, or decided to make archwing because players are interested in flying around space, give me more instances of community prompted changes that had specifics from the moment we offered them. 

[Kestral9999]

Using the excuse its their game to dismiss any kind of feedback is possibly the most worthless thing you can say in a discussion board. No crap it's their game, doesn't mean they can't screw it up or that we can't dislike what they have done. Just because you make something doesn't mean you always know right and are a being of absolute perfection within all that area pertains to.

 

On another note, everything you've offered here are very broad instances, which I implicitly stated I wasn't looking for, give me actual mechanics that have been derived from the players, fixes that the community inspired, what frames have been given buffs the community suggested, what weapons have been altered based on community suggestions on how they could be made vastly better? Not when de made a frame loosely off of player art, or decided to make archwing because players are interested in flying around space, give me more instances of community prompted changes that had specifics from the moment we offered them. 

Two big things here:

 

Using that response in the context that I did is entirely valid. If I were dismissing feedback, this would be a different story, but I'm dismissing a claim that they don't listen to their playerbase which is an entirely different discussion. Clearly you're triggered.

 

And again, I'm not here to be your research monkey. You want that answer? Find it yourself.

 

 

 

Don't quote me again. This discussion isn't going anywhere productive.

[Kestral9999]

I'm not pretending like they take people's ultra popular suggestions and implement them exactly as they were written nor am I pretending that every implementation is perfect or better than it was originally written. But they're implemented in some way or another, and that's more than I can say for most forums/communities I've been involved with.

Quoting myself for posterity's sake, since apparently I was arguing the exact opposite and saying DE implements changes exactly as players suggest them. Weird, considering I don't even believe that.

 

Straw man? Is that you?

[(PSN)Folkeye]

 

 

The only place where fan ideas get turned into actual stuff to be implemented into the game is on the design council, but that is just throwing a bone to the people who people gave a chunk of the startup capital for this game....

 

 

That there is far from true. DC members are no longer limited to founders. 

[Cubewano]

Two big things here:

 

Using that response in the context that I did is entirely valid. If I were dismissing feedback, this would be a different story, but I'm dismissing a claim that they don't listen to their playerbase which is an entirely different discussion. Clearly you're triggered.

 

And again, I'm not here to be your research monkey. You want that answer? Find it yourself.

 

 

 

Don't quote me again. This discussion isn't going anywhere productive.

I'm triggered because I don't agree with you? Nice logic. And how is that response valid for that situation? They don't listen to anything vital from the community because they want to feel special > its their game they can do as they please > that doesnt make it right??? 

 

As for the research, you are the one who tried to disprove my claim, if you can't then why respond? I'm not here to do the homework for you, I know my side and presented my points, if you don't have the same then that isn't on me. 

 

And oops, did it anywho, but I'm glad to know you run from conversations that don't go your way. 

[ChameleonDude]

Read the title, ignored the posts. Quite fitting, if I may say so myself.

 

These forums are read by the devs and they do action what they deem appropriate in a timescale that can work. I've flagged up small issues and seen a quick fix the next hotfix. I've brought up issues with underlying game mechanics and seen them overhauled. I've seen feedback that hasn't magically made its way into the game yet, but I'm confident is being worked on right now as I'm typing this; or in a queue behind other, more pressing issues.

 

Things take time, priorities must be made and players opinions aren't always correct. That's about all there is to it.

[(PSN)NachoZissou]

I think DE will be a lot more interested in seeing people pointing out bugs etc which need fixing, rather than taking creative advice. I'm sure they have confidence in themselves that they have done well so far on their own steam and while they will appreciate the (occasionally rabid) passion and interest shown in these forums, they have to keep on making their own decisions.

[Kestral9999]

Ad hominem, straw man fallacy, AND a non sequitur all in one post. Props.

 

To the point, because you're asking me to provide support to an argument THAT I'M NOT MAKING.

 

Yeah, I'll not hesitate to admit that I'm too lazy to go tooling through 1,000+ threads to prove a single inconsequentially adverse opinion wrong. Not to mention I'm about to leave work where I have access to the resources to do so more conveniently. 

 

Anyway, I stated my views on the subject while remaining as objective as possible. I even stated areas where it could be improved but instigatory prodding and begging the question is not something I'm up to dealing with today.

[Siekier]

This is exactly how I feel most of the time.

After seeing countless threads and posts providing constructive feedback and highlighting more or less important issues (ranging from weapon balance to core game mechanic) and close to none response from devs... It almost feels hopeless.

 

Recent Hydroid nerf is a perfect example. A change that nobody asked for was implemented even though there were dozens of player responses against it. They were simply ignored, all of them. There wasn't a response from devteam, there wasn't anything. They could hold up with this change, see what the community is thinking about this but no. They ignored all the feedback that was given to them.

 

Communication between devs and us is in terrible state and it's getting even worse.

I feel like community hot topics are just something to give us an illusion of having impact on changes made by devs.

[Maxis_55]

As it has been mentioned in the past by DERebecca, the developers do in fact frequent the forums and review feedback given by players, however they do not always have the time to reply to every piece of feedback that goes up.

Incorrect. As long as the criticism adheres to the rules (mature, respectful and objective) then there's no risk of it being removed.

If it spews vitriol, profanity, insults and rage, then yes, it will be removed.

The best feedback is negative feedback made with level headed, objective arguments and proposes alternatives with the intent of improving the game.

So you want to say that people on forum never give objective feedback or they never propose things, that dev can implement? Like seeing energy of you teammates? And, anyway, how many feedback (not about broken things, that make game unplayable) was actually heard? Or, if they were many, how much of them community faced with joy? Because I know that we have Baro repeating useless staff not because of developers, but because of community, and I know that arguments about making him as now was criticized, but they anyway pushed Baro in bad direction.

 

Also, regarding void trader, see:

There was a rant thread about how bad the trader's items were... they changed them immediately.

 

You mean threads, that appeared every 2 week, like 5 times or so? This is immediately?

Edited August 7, 2015 by Maxis_55

[Kasseopea]

DE will start answering once people stop paying. As long as they get their checks anyways - why bother? It would require time and passion to actually deal with suggestions and respond to them in a proper way.

 

They simply can't be bothered with community problems as long as it does not affect sales.

[[DE]Danielle]

The thread continues to deteriorate into a malicious back and fourth with no real foreseeable end. Locking.  

 

Please be respectful to one another Tenno. Thank you.