Survival Balancing

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Life support was always the necessary evil--the thing we needed to guarantee everyone leaves eventually, but not really something that improved the experience IMO. For me at least (I started playing well after Survival was created, so vets may disagree) what made it great was the nearly overwhelming odds, yet without the current situation where one enemy can drop you if you're not careful you stop spamming CC or using effective health buffs. Honestly, I think player progression is at the point where that's barely feasible, at least without (frustrating) enemies designed to ignore player power, but the way to try to get that back in my opinion would be to introduce minibosses that appear more and more consistently as the missions go on. The old, pre-revamp version of bosses would be an easy place to start. Life support should be minimalized as much as possible, only existing so you can't keep going without killing anything.

[UnworthySeraph]

Survival needs a bigger rework than this. It could be much more interesting.

[ntyd1s]

You cannot expect support from some of us by increasing RNG role in it... :((((

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

My proposed changes:

1)The whole level is constantly being drained (like in hive missions).

2)Enemies don't drop life support at all.

3)There is only one Lotus capsule active at any given point in time.

4)Every capsule provides 30 seconds of the tile it's in not being drained.

5)Once it is used up Lotus will beam another capsule into the level and the team has to make its way there.

6)The AI will frequently try to lock the team in and block doors in the teams path.

 

This should:

1)Make the teams movement as a unit more purposeful and mission-oriented.

2)Make teams less dependent on Oxyfarm-frames.

3)Create more tension and atmosphere.

This right here.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

No, You don't need LS in surviva at all, .  Remove it entirely, and make the mode live up to it's name.  Keep all the same mechanics, of getting a reward every 5 minutes and enemies becoming stronger.  The mode would work better than ever, by not relying on RNG and pod camping, and it would be way more fun as a straight up horde mode.

 

EDIT:

 

For the people going to complain about tension, just have a group of assassins (e.g. stalker, gustrag 3, syndicate squads) released at every 5 minute mark.

Edited August 26, 2015 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

No, You don't need LS in surviva at all, .  Remove it entirely, and make the mode live up to it's name.  Keep all the same mechanics, of getting a reward every 5 minutes and enemies becoming stronger.  The mode would work better than ever, by not relying on RNG and pod camping, and it would be way more fun as a straight up horde mode.

 

EDIT:

 

For the people going to complain about tension, just have a group of assassins (e.g. stalker, gustrag 3, syndicate squads) released at every 5 minute mark.

Then that will come to be much too predictable. No tension from monotony.

[ashrah]

i think survivals are  think what keep end game live......rewards should be much better life support should be same as before

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Then that will come to be much too predictable. No tension from monotony.

 

When did I say you had to release them in the same order?  I am also pretty sure that I implied past wave 15 you would be fighting multiple hit squads at once.  If you don't think fighting level 60 enemies + the Stalker + the G3 at the same time is tension-inducing then I don't know what to tell you.

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

When did I say you had to release them in the same order?  I am also pretty sure that I implied past wave 15 you would be fighting multiple hit squads at once.  If you don't think fighting level 60 enemies + the Stalker + the G3 at the same time is tension-inducing then I don't know what to tell you.

That's broken to hell, not tension inducing. That makes the Phoenix escalation tactical alert look look a tutorial and child's play. No thank you.

[Urlan]

In my experience, killing nonstop, if my team doesn't have a Nekros, the Large life support runs out quite quickly and it becomes a random game of did the enemies drop enough portable life supports. Especially during survivals in the Derelict, during the 15-20 marker and higher, the enemies seem to switch from a more numberous horde wave to more elites and subsequently there is a gap in enemies dropping life support which forces popping large life support just to keep enough air to finish the 20 wave. These changes seem like they would force more teams to use Nekros or go home, I am not sure if this sounds positive to the game honestly. One option, that might be a good point is as DesecratedFlame stated, add some different challenges to the survival, make it so that it isn't always about the enemies turning off life support but possibly different survival scenarios. We could have one where assassins and other elites attack us from room to room causing lockdowns; Radiation or energy levels fluctuating and forcing teams to move to temporary safe rooms; Lockdowns forcing players to go into control rooms to disable the lockdowns while enemies pour in like a mini mobile defense. Something to make it so the mission is less of a required loadout for the team just to succeed while giving some surprises or variety.

[BlutAdler]

I really hope he reads this and actively makes changes based on what people are suggesting rather than a blanketed "We welcome your criticism about the pls drop" 

 

Survival does need somewhat of an overhaul or more intricacies introduced. A lot of missions do, but since you're on the topic of survival.

 

Please add events to survival that challenge our ability to SURVIVE? 

 

Suggestions:

-Unique Mobs that can spawn more mobs over time if not killed fast enough.

-Lockdown puzzles that access certain rewards/areas

- special mobs that require special ways to defeat them

 

things like that would make playing the survival more intricate and interesting for the entire mode, so that we're not forced to camp and stay in one place waiting for items.

[taiiat]

along with this, it may be good to... either increase the Chance earlier, or increase Enemy Density faster.

as when the PLS rate isn't terribly high, getting started on a Survival can be finicky. i.e. if Enemies one time Spawn a bit less than average you could find yourself leaving very early.

once it's established, then absolutely, Life Support has been very easy.

so as long as we compensate a bit for the start of Survival so that the lower Enemy Density doesn't become a problem, it should be alright.

Does that mean that other items will have higher chance to drop instead. Not sure if lifesupport overrides drops or goes as additional.

nope, Life Support is a completely separate thing.

Actually what would be great would be to add another "big" tile onto the three we get now, and to add Survival-exclusive tiles that are scary and tense into the game.

could maybe be interesting.

however Tiles made just for Survival would be the best ones for the Game Mode, naturally, so i worry that the best areas of the map for Squads to play in would be those Tiles.

so you'd always play there statistically, but aesthetically it may get boring over time as you'd always be seeing the same things.

theres already too much of a perception that Nekros is is a must-have for survivals.

well, it's been a false perception for a very long time. years ago (give or take)? yes, Desecrate was once mandatory.

but it has long since not needed l00t Farming Abilities to work as long as Players are capable of Killing Enemies quickly. there was a stent where it was a bit low for lower Player counts, which was addressed once we could identify how much of a problem there was.

- - - - -

however, if i gather correctly, you're saying, no Life Support of any sort to manage, but instead Life Support Pods allow you to continue, and since the Mission will fail without them, you are completely forced to follow them around the map.

unless i'm missing a facet however, i don't see anything here that is forcing Players to Kill Enemies.

because Survival needs to force Players to deal with the Enemies, and also should be making Players move around the map.

you've definitely addressed the second part of that, but the first one is vacant from what i gather.

-snip-

if the entire Map is always draining, doesn't that effectively make Survival permanent Nightmare no Shields mode?

some Warframes are very Shield based, and if you never have Shields, that kind've hurts them a ton, while some others not so much.

yes, the Life Support Pods would allow you to disable the Effect temporarily, but still, Shields aren't equally valuable to every Warframe, and due to that, it makes some Warframes predisposed to be ineffective in Survival.

however, i do like Enemies trying to block you from getting to your next Life Support Pod. it kind've forces you to deal with the Enemies, though you can also blow by them and not bother with them.

Players need to be forced to Kill Enemies in Survival. otherwise they're just picking their nose and getting rewards.

-snip-

this sounds neat, having extras to spice things up, and absolutely, yes, using existing assets to get it implemented faster.

provided such MiniBosses also are more valuable to Kill than the Enemies around them (such as guaranteed to drop Life Support / can drop a bunch more, Et Cetera), then Players will definitely want to Kill them.

it certainly doesn't help with how Overpowered Players are, mmm.

however, Life Support taking a back seat allows Players to be quite passive or lazy about their Killing of Enemies. i don't 'enjoy' it, just like nobody else does. but i don't think it can take a back seat because without something like it, Players don't have much of a need to Kill the Enemies that are around. taking a back seat only requires that Players Kill Enemies sometimes.

*shrugs*

[HellEnforcer]

When survival first came out I was excited as I thought it was a hold as long as you can. That's not really the case as it is more of kill as fast as you can or bring Nekros. I am not much into survival, so I will try to refrain to give big opinions into something i barely know.

 

 

I think it would be prudent to remove PLS altogether, because even without Nekros, if you get enough kills in one area you no longer need the big pods.

Actually what would be great would be to add another "big" tile onto the three we get now, and to add Survival-exclusive tiles that are scary and tense into the game.

Also, because it's going to be said - y'all really need to take a look at the drop tables.

 

PLS are the Personal Life Support. Pretty much the capsules the enemy drop on death. Doing what you are saying makes no sense as you will absolutely rely on the "big pods" and kills would not be related to this at all.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

That's broken to hell, not tension inducing. That makes the Phoenix escalation tactical alert look look a tutorial and child's play. No thank you.

That's about as hard as it gets without cheap, artificial difficulty tactics.  It would actually be a fun fight too.

[H1ndenburg]

Not sure about reducing the drop rate, theres already too much of a perception that Nekros is is a must-have for survivals...

 

Infact, had an idea;

 

Remove PLS entirely.

 

Instead of restoring a set amount of remaining time, using the LS capsule will simply prevent the mission from failing until the next one arrives.

 

When the next one arrives, players have a certain amount of time to activate it before mission failed.

 

This will require players to move at some point, will end those boring tunnel camps everyone only ever seems to do, and it removes the dependance on loot drops for the mission to continue, and it kills the noob trap of players just using the capsules as soon as they arrive without realising what it actually does.

I like this guy's thinking ...

 

 

The nerf is good and well but it isn't enough.

 

My proposed changes:

1)The whole level is constantly being drained (like in hive missions).

2)Enemies don't drop life support at all.

3)There is only one Lotus capsule active at any given point in time.

4)Every capsule provides 30 seconds of the tile it's in not being drained.

5)Once it is used up Lotus will beam another capsule into the level and the team has to make its way there.

6)The AI will frequently try to lock the team in and block doors in the teams path.

 

This should:

1)Make the teams movement as a unit more purposeful and mission-oriented.

2)Make teams less dependent on Oxyfarm-frames.

3)Create more tension and atmosphere.

... This guy's idea works great with the first guy's idea.

 

+10

 

From a solo player's perspective - its so touch & go sometimes. Random drops mean you can get to 15min with 6 Capsules on hand ... or only a deuce. The spawns seem to take forever to get to you - and there simply aren't enough of them to either pose a challenge or keep you air supplied.

 

And for the love of Lotus - if you're going to insist on making it more difficult - there must be reminders about sticking together!!

 

Multiples of them - excessive redundancy - Lotus audio - Ordis warnings - BIG NEON signs ... there should be no reason for anyone getting into arguments with randoms because they're completely convinced being 5 tiles apart doesn't affect the spawns. 

I feel this guy's pain, solo survival can be really touch and go sometimes. T1 survival shouldn't be a challenge simply because the game didn't feel like cooperating right then and there. Also added extra bold text for extra emphasis! Maybe if the information comes from Lotus or, god forbid, Ordis then maybe people will group up for better enemy spawns.

 

That's about as hard as it gets without cheap, artificial difficulty tactics.  It would actually be a fun fight too.

Fun story about that. I was in T4 Sab one time when Stalker's comms screen popped up on my HUD. I was VERY surprised to hear Vor's voice come out of his mouth. For a moment I was convinced that Stalker had actually been given spoken lines! In reality, it was just Corrupted Vor and Stalker attacking me at the same time and their respective taunts got borked as a result. This is also the story of how I got my Dread.

[Evanescent]

As a solo player I am opposed to these changes. Right now without Nekros I can kill enough to have 4-5 canisters handy in-case things get hectic. What you propose will do nothing to team players because they will keep on with the desecrate/pilferdroid spam and increase difficulty needlessly for solo players. Now you can be comfortable without a Nekros as long as you kill fast enough. With the changes we might go back to the days where no nekros=no long survs for you.

Please post videos, and take feedback vefore implementing the change in solo and team play.

[ograzzt]

It's ok if these changes won't affect solo survivals.

[(XBOX)iReapDeep]

So solo players are going to get hit with this and all campers need to do is add a runner to go and get a pod every once in awhile?

[SonicSonedit]

When survival first came out I was excited as I thought it was a hold as long as you can. That's not really the case as it is more of kill as fast as you can or bring Nekros.

Pretty much this. All this "press x to refill air" so-called "frantic gameplay" gets boring really fast and becomes annoying instead of interesting. "Survive as long as you can" sound much more fun to me. Just throw in some strong enemies every 5 minutes, Manics, Juggernauts. So after being almost wiped at 30 minute mark players would just say "next wave of manics will wipe us, it's time to exit".

[NetSlayer]

In order to promote Teamwork and team proximity why not have a life support version of 'Link'

Being within close proximity could boost energy regen and reduce the loss of life support over time.

All players would have this link. Within range of 2 players forms 2 links etc.

1 Link offers minimal energy regen and minimal effect to reduction of life support decay over time.
(The equivalent of one energy siphon and effectively an extra minute of time maybe?)

 

3 links offers the most benefit.

2 players with one link and another 2 players with 1 link, only count as a total of 2 links.

To encourage the whole team stick together it must double per number of links.

the benefit of 1 link is half as much as 2 links which is half as much as 3 links etc.


Solo players receive 3 specters that can form this link.

Edited August 26, 2015 by NetSlayer

[low1991]

Cool! a nerf in oxygen drop rate = the more need for nekros. (time for double nekros)

 

I Still prefer the event survival. Defense map fitted for survival with lots of enemies swarm in to kill you.

 

Of course there's the FPS drop on tons of oxygen capsules. The possible solution for this is, remove it. Replace it with an increase in Lotus' oxygen life support system rate.

 

Too many enemies that it lags? reduce it & replace them with eximus, ALL of them. 

 

*can't survive any longer?, DE time to shorten the length between rewards*

Edited August 26, 2015 by low1991

[reedknoll]

I think if we decrease the drops and duration, more teams will require nekros. I like survival the way it is

[YourMoms]

I don't appreciate such changes.Not only it is difficult to overcome 60 min barrier but also you have to worry about life support now. Not really good.

[Sibernetika]

oh hell... with Solo being barely doable for the 1st 15 minutes if you manage to even get that far with the crappy life support drop I can sense I will need to use only nekros or a kill everything instantly with a press of a button so I can increase my chances of even lasting to the next life support..

 

nether the less I will wait for the update and hopefully be proven wrong..

 

Edit: I also sense an old school draco build will surface here with Mesa, Frost, Nekros and Mag.. mag can pull all the life supports yay.. unless that is nerfed

Edited August 26, 2015 by Sibernetika

[Flanyr]

WHY NOT JUST HAVE EVERY ENEMY KILLED GIVE YOU BACK A SET PERCENTAGE OF AIR INSTEAD OF HAVING AIR REGULATED BY RNG BS?!

 

 

This, This, So much This. Either that or make a set enemy type drop LS, like in Excavation.