Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[EchoesOfRain]

Honestly, if Toxic Lash just gave all weapons a 100% toxic proc, I'd be happy. It doesn't even have to have a damage buff, just enough to spread spores easily

[(XBOX)a salsa wizard]

You know they are changing Ash's ultimate don't you.

they are? Why?

[Tesseract7777]

Because it lacks player interactivity for an extended period of time while a cutscene plays the game for you. The devs are changing it for the same reason they changed Peacemaker. 

[Sebastianx]

so much cons, it's blinding my eyes

Well, they're just 3 major cons really...

[Tain_OSkoom]

My only real complaint is that Molt is way too squishy for soloing T4S. Past 30 minutes, it just evaporates as soon as it is dropped.

[RHuckebein]

Honestly, if Toxic Lash just gave all weapons a 100% toxic proc, I'd be happy. It doesn't even have to have a damage buff, just enough to spread spores easily

 

As near as I can tell it does.

 

 

No, before the change I said "Saryn is a one trick pony. If you're going to nerf her 4, she needs more versatility." After the change I said, "you didn't give Saryn any real versatility, she is still a one trick pony and now she sucks at that trick." You are not finding some inconsistency in people's positions. You're just strawmanning people rather rudely by refusing to read what they've said.

 

My go-to argument has always been to compare Saryn to Frost - both have a nukey 4. Frost's did less damage, but had better built-in CC - and Frost also has snow globe, a fantastic utility ability.

 

What does Saryn have besides her nukey 4, which is no longer really all that nukey and still isn't all that great CC? And the answer is; nothing that really makes her all that great. Some subpar damage multiplication from her 1.

 

This.  pushing more buttons to do the same thing isn't more interesting.  Making saryn's other abilities individually useful would have solved the saryn 'problem.'  This doesn't.

[lostinrehab]

My only real complaint is that Molt is way too squishy for soloing T4S. Past 30 minutes, it just evaporates as soon as it is dropped.

 

 

Anything past 20 mins isn't balanced for.

 

That said her molt could use like a buffer stage like ice globe.

[KenthNisshoku]

if we make it toggle skill it should be like Chroma's elemental ward but instead of a buff anyone/anything that is near her takes corrosive/viral damage per second and every enemy that dies from it releases a gas cloud

[BreadCutter]

I think Spore's mechanics is good (from what I've been able to do at least) but it does very small damage, along with the rest of her abilities. I would say that her skills now seem to be neither caster type abilities nor pure damage abilities, as they do not completely fulfill either role successfully. Also, the health nerf seemed a bit unnecessary. 

[ThePredicament]

SARYN SHOULD NOT BE A MELEE FRAME!

 

1) Spores/Venom still has the same absolutely crappy mechanic of needing to shoot spores. Why? Why are we still forced to gamble on people shooting AT the spores rather than killing them? Being able to cast on Molt is really nice, good step forward. With Contagion/Toxic Lash, not so much. Viral is a proc that only truly shines when enemies have so much health that taking half instantly is a good idea, what scales with that health? Damage and needing to get close without any kind of forward attack skill like Slash Dash, Teleport, Rip Line, puts her at a very disadvantageous position to even try to automatically pop them with melee.

 

2) Molt is still good but being destroyed by Miasma hurts the whole kits versatility. It opens her up for damage just by casting Miasma, sure it can be recast but that's more energy spent for nothing.

 

3) Contagion/Toxic Lash... SHE SHOULD NOT BE A MELEE FRAME! Why hasn't this skill been reworked to fit every equipped item instead? No reliable way to get close to enemies, less tanky than before, reliance on an augment to be tanky. It doesn't make sense at all.

 

4) Miasma, worse than it was before, even without the negative duration builds. It wasn't some late game destroying skill, it never has been. All this "synergy" stuff could have been piled on to the old Miasma and it still would have worked fine. The solution was to incentivize the other skill so BUILD DIVERSITY can open up more options for her, not pigeonhole her into old Ember's straight down the line, need to mod to fix weaknesses build.

[Bunkorre]

Please rethink the change to Saryn's health.

 

A long time ago now, Saryn could be notable for having considerable effective health because of her higher health pool as well as armor, both of which worked wonderfully with Regenerative Molt once it came around. Nowadays, a large number of frames have been getting armor buffs and stats which diminish what Saryn had, and Ash's Prime even gained armor to match both Saryn's health and armor, which honestly never made sense.

 

Those of us who've always loved Saryn herself (for more than Miasma) appreciated her having the defensive stats that she did, but watching as most other frames made it a null point over time (especially due to powers), this health change is last thing we wanted to see.

[akira_him]

What I see from the general reaction

 

Before the change:  Saryn is a one trick pony! We need more synergies!

 

After the change: It takes so much time to cast abilities, Saryn should be a one trick pony!!

 

well...

 

I generally like this change. At least much better than previously.

Except most people misunderstood the revisit, Saryn is still a one trick pony, and she now sucks at that trick

 

I am glad they didn't used the word "rework", or it will break the myth "DE does great job when they use the word 'rework' "

Edited November 5, 2015 by akira_him

[tripletriple]

Anything past 20 mins isn't balanced for.

 

That said her molt could use like a buffer stage like ice globe.

Are you trolling? Where do you get your information from? Raids? 

[Seruu]

Those of you trying to use Saryn for her ult are going to be miserable, there's simply no way to deal with the 100 base energy cost and the fact that its output is crap. Start focusing on her other abilities, my clan mates and I have found a handful of niche/fun builds using 1 and 3 and her new passive.

 

Our main Saryn fnatic has achieved a 40min+ T4 solo with his build, which he asked us not to share till get can put a video up.

 

The re-work isn't THAT bad. 

[mcryseria]

I have over 2000 hours of playtime with about 25% of that time spent playing Saryn. I'm really happy that you guys (DE) actually tweaked her abilities. Most of the tweaks are really nice but it doesn't mean that there's no room for more improvement.

The EHP nerf I think was not necessary as Saryn is a warframe that needs to be up close and personal in order to deal damage. She actually needed a slight armor buff instead of the EHP nerf. Her energy pool buff is nice but I also think her ability energy costs should be tweaked in order for her to deal a more constant stream of damage while not having to worry about draining energy at a high rate with each ability use.

I like what you guys did with her first 3 abilities but miasma seems to have lost its usefulness. The CC stun duration is not really that great and it now requires her to use spore and toxic lash in order to deal real damage. I don't really have a problem with that but if you guys could actually just make miasma have a non-stackable 100% corrosive proc it would really help her usefulness in higher level missions. Casting miasma on an enemy would apply a corrosive proc (-25% enemy armor) and deal damage overtime and recasting it on the same enemy would just refresh the proc duration (non-stackable meaning enemies would still just have -25% armor not -50% etc.) while also dealing a fresh damage overtime. I think this would also synergize well with her current kit (viral procs using spore) and would make her the "tenderizer" for higher level missions.

[akira_him]

Anything past 20 mins isn't balanced for.

 

That said her molt could use like a buffer stage like ice globe.

Enemies pass Level 50 (old system's Lv150) are the ones who isn't balanced for (not counting raids)

T4 past 30 mins is 40-ish

[AdunSaveMe]

On the subject of all the Saryn hate, I'll just throw this in;

 

So we ignore them and their complaining, and instead wait a little while for the proper reviews from people who have analysed every number of her kit, and then we listen to them and discuss their points and work towards a better skillset, if it can be achieved.

 

Simple.

 

Wait till people use her properly, then discuss their comments on what does and doesn't work, since it'll be more valid.

[letir]

Miasma should at least stay in one place, as AOE cloud.

[Husla]

Simplest solution to fix Miasma would've been to that, it can't go below 100% duration Or make it LoS...

[DeMeritus]

Maybe it's just me, but saryn seems to be a LOT more squishy than before.  Very noticably so.

 

And from what I'm seeing, getting off the intricate combinations of abilities, melee and ranged attacks, etc off to get anything remotely approaching the same damage on one single enemy that miasma could pull of consistently on every enemy within a crowd is... awkward, to say the least.  Not really seeing the crowd control staggering that miasma used to cause, either.

 

And If I'm going to have to effectively do the exact same series of abilities and attacks, requiring a very specific, immutable build that requires a very specific combination of weapons and weapon mods...  DE, can you just add some macro functionality into WF at this point?  Initial experiences seem to be saying this is the direction the game's going to need to head, unless you like repeated mandatory patterns of finger gymnastics.

 

I'll need to experiment more, but...  This series of changes doesn't seem to really add fun to playing saryn so far.

 

Perhaps up the DPS back up to the levels it was at, or even higher, and keep the nerfed effective HP to balance.

 

Or buff the effective HP substantially, beyond what it used to be, to make up for the decrease in DPS and requirement of having to get in the enemy's face in order to get off the melee and similar attacks you need to in order to make the required synergies of abilities and such done in the right order, to make any meaningful sort of DPS happen on a single enemy.

 

Maybe add a stagger/stun to the abilities, as I wasn't seeing any such when doing so this far.  Only staggering was the default you get from melee strikes.  Which... probably isn't going to help in preventing the rest of a crowd from shooting you in the face while you're trying to get abilities and status effects to go off in the proper order.

 

She's initially coming off as being intended to be a hybrid of ranged and melee, with both capabilities being compromised to the point of being good at/for neither.  Her abilities seem... not so good on their own.  Even a bit tiring to use.  Moreso than just hitting 4 to poot things to death.

 

Not to mention burning through energy.

 

Many people were/are hoping for more versatility, not a frame that requires macros.  Yay.  We now have button rotations like WoW and LoL.  Only macro programs are banned, right?

 

Still have to test a bit with scaling to higher level enemies of various factions.

 

Also, aren't synergies what DE is constantly nerfing and trying to prevent?  Syndicate weapon mods on excal come immediately to mind.  Countless others could be brought up, though I'm feeling le tired, and am going to take a nap.

 

But for now, it seems the Bean Queen has become the Flower Child.

 

Maybe further testing will reveal more.

Edited November 5, 2015 by DeMeritus

[N1ightstrider]

Not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing but Nova's Molecular Prime affects the Miasma damage timer. If Nova is modded for slow, then the timer is increased to almost 4 seconds longer per tick meaning less damage output for Saryn. If Nova is modded for fast, the timer ticks more rapidly meaning higher dps but more spam on Saryns part requiring more efficiency. However Fleeting takes from duration so there really isn't anyway to mod against a fast nova unless you get Trinity EV spam. 

 

I think you guys need to sort out the cost for casting Molt and Spore if you want 'synergy'.

[Eswe666]

Low energy, low health and i am forced casting more skills in shorter time to buff miasma? Sorry DE i can´t see sinergys. Maybe playable in good team, not in a random group or solo.

[Arachne.]

- and now her other powers are more usefull, casting spore on molt is a great combo now.

as for all the people i played with calling it a nerf, youre wrong, sayrns effectiveness is increased. her 3 is actually an option now as well.

 

 

 

 

played with a few tenno today who said"sayrn sucks now" i aked them what their build was, they all said neegative duration. i asked them if they read the patch notes and changed their build to utalize the changes and of course they said" no I only want to spam 4"

[bubbabenali]

Not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing but Nova's Molecular Prime affects the Miasma damage timer. If Nova is modded for slow, then the timer is increased to almost 4 seconds longer per tick meaning less damage output for Saryn. If Nova is modded for fast, the timer ticks more rapidly meaning higher dps but more spam on Saryns part requiring more efficiency. However Fleeting takes from duration so there really isn't anyway to mod against a fast nova unless you get Trinity EV spam.

I think you guys need to sort out the cost for casting Molt and Spore if you want 'synergy'.

See, thats called synergy, not this damn synergy forced to use 2 - 3 skills to make something. Like Limbo or new Saryn.

Edited November 5, 2015 by bubbabenali

[KiloFoxx]

Those of you trying to use Saryn for her ult are going to be miserable, there's simply no way to deal with the 100 base energy cost and the fact that its output is crap. Start focusing on her other abilities, my clan mates and I have found a handful of niche/fun builds using 1 and 3 and her new passive.

 

Our main Saryn fnatic has achieved a 40min+ T4 solo with his build, which he asked us not to share till get can put a video up.

 

The re-work isn't THAT bad. 

do please update the original post with a link to said video, I'd like to see some fresh insight on how to do that kinda thing, particularly with Saryn