Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[Dr_Dac]

As much as i agree with the action i find her lacking in the actual reward. Her build has become monstrus strengh duration range and you need way more energy too.... combined with being forced in melee range with less HP than before. I find her interesting, the skin looks beatiful but i do not

see her in any mission that could be considered more difficult. She is now a medicore frame without serious place in any decent squad or raid

composition. She got more interesting but she lost her role. That may change when they fix the 2 already confirmed bugs or rescale some numbers.

But in my case she just evolved from ugly infested to beatiful glasscannon that shoots cottonballs.

[Dr_Dac]

After playing a few sessions of Interception with the new Saryn I'd have to say my favorite part of the rework is playing Ember instead.  While I too can see where DE was going it just doesn't work.  While I am doing damage over time the enemy is doing damage to my face.  Trying to get in range to use Toxic Lash on high level Grineer is suicide.  I ended up spamming Miasma to stay alive, ironically.  Admittedly I did like the DPS increase from just spreading spores and hitting miasma but it was too risky of a playstyle to be sustainable for a frame with few defenses.

 

This rework feels like a step backwards.  Not nearly as satisfying as the Frost or Excal reworks.  The new skin is gorgeous though, it's too bad.

 

This brings it very much on point, lackluster defense combined with a high effort play style with lackloster reward.

[DraccoDoom]

agree,saryn now have a fun(and good) play-style

 

i went to relay,simulacrum, and i fought against some eximus lvl 75,press only 4,hadn't worked,then redo, tryed various combinations(like 2+1 then 2,,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 and 4+3) all eximus were dead in less than 15 seconds,now it's not just a press 4 to win,and with the correct comnbo+primed mod the energyis no longer a problem

my saryn:

duration 158

strenght 130

efficiency 130

range 145

 

it works good

 

classic dumb players,still yelling and complain for the changes(cuz no more press 4 to win),make combos?nhaaa too hard we want the easy win(i saw people complain for the "hard" combo you have to do,for a bulletjump,then i suppose make  combos with saryn by pressing differents buttons It is out of their reach...."),whatever GJ De now saryn is fun and enjoyable

What the hell are you smoking man ?? so I have to use 14 powers in a row??(what's that 275 energy? or more?), how long will it take me to build that energy back up? why not just use a gun and not waste energy? I really hope your joking because its not clear from your post.

Edited November 5, 2015 by DraccoDoom

[Protomorph]

I think this rework could be better than its current state.

 

It's good if abilities have synergy. It's bad if you're forced to use multiple abilities and that synergy to accomplish anything. Right now this is how Saryn works, and that's not good. You simply can't afford the necessary energy costs to be effective. When you do kill enemies it takes more time and significantly more effort than just using a gun or a different Warframe. I can't think of any mission or instance where I would pick Saryn over other frames.

 

Every one of Saryns abilities should have a useful effect and stand on it's own. If the abilities have synergy in addition to this, that's great, but this is the baseline, the bare minimum the rework should accomplish to be effective. If you need a reference look at the current state of Frost. He's near perfect.

 

Also if we're being honest about Saryns kit it has to be said that Toxic Lash/Contagion just doesn't fit in. Like Excaliburs Super Jump, or Lokis Switch Teleport, this is an ability that was just shoehorned in there for no good reason at all. It is a relic from a time when Warframes were more poorly designed than they are now. If you're serious about the rework, get rid of Toxic Lash and replace it with something useful. Having Saryn run around slashing enemies with melee attacks is time consuming, high-risk, low-reward, and out of character. It will be almost impossible to make any version of this ability that makes it worthwhile to use without making it deliberately overpowered.

 

The last thing is that the current state of Saryn is that she's overly, unnecessarily complex. It's great that you want to create synergy. It's nice to have abilities that play off of each other, and it's fun to think that players could (with infinite energy) run around casting combos of abilities for big payoffs.

 

The reality in the game is that nobody has time for that. If I run one survival mission for an hour, by the 10th time I've had to cast spores, pop spores, cast a molt, spore a molt, miasma a molt, recast spores, cast toxic lash, slash enemies, cast miasma, etc. I'm tired of it. The first 5 times you use these combos it's fun. The next few times it's time consuming. The 100th time it's a drag. The 1,000th time you'd just rather play something else. In addition to which when I've tried to set up and finish these combos in game I usually fail because either I don't have the energy or more often the enemies are dead before I can resolve a combo because the other players have already killed the enemies with weapons or more effective frames.

 

And that's really the crux of the matter here. If you take anything, one single thing, away from the feedback on Saryn it should be this: this version of Saryn is less useful, more time-consuming, takes more effort,  and is more energy-intensive than other frames or your weapons. There is no good reason to play this Saryn. When I play Frost, or Ember, or Rhino and I use multiple abilities I get the synergy because each of the abilities are useful alone. With Saryn I use multiple abilities because I have no other choice.

[Helch0rn]

Takes 1 cast to kill L30 Heavy Gunners, 2 casts almost exactly to kill L40's

One cast kills level 50 normal units (mixed types)

(This was with 184% Power Strength)

 

Her Effective health totals (Vit/SF/AA)

 

Saryn New: 5037

Saryn Old: 5631

Rhino P: 3604

Oberon: 4606

care to show the build that lets you use Vit, SF and AA, while having decent stats with your abilitys and not run out of energy all the time?

[V0LK]

If only:

- Spores spread after host dies;

- TL worked with firearms.

 

With this update you DID NOT FIX A SINGLE PROBLEM SARYN HAD but butchered it's nuke capabilities. Into the trash it goes.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Poison gas incapacitates you almost immediately and leaves you that way until you die. If you want to bring reality into it then the enemies should get immediately knocked down by miasma and stay that way until the die.

Well they do get stunned don't forget. It is a game after all, can't make it too easy. Most of the people are complaining because there are frames that can do the same job better. I still use Latron Prime over many other guns for one reason, I enjoy it more. It doesn't do more damage, it isn't faster at killing and it requires me to aim for headshots but it's an enjoyable way of playing for me. The people who like this rework are the ones who like to get more involved in their gameplay, not just sit back chillin and pressing 1 button, they're madly bouncing the room, taking cover, using combos and having a ball. It's a choice of playstyle, not everybody is concerned with purely how much DPS a weapon can do and how quickly we can rush through a mission. If I'm going to farm the void, I probably won't take Saryn, just as if I'm going to farm cores on Triton, I'll take Frost or Mag. But if I'm planning to enjoy a game with my friends, then I might take Saryn and enjoy the style of play rather than worrying about how fast I'm killing things and whether or not I'm going to be top of the scoreboard.

[PurpleLegionary]

Update seems fine to me but this flower on Saryn's shoulder for her new skin kills it for me. I think it would look so much better if we could remove it or something but hey that is just me.

Edit:  After messing with the flower a bunch I find it really distracting for it being on the right side. Why couldn't it not be there in the first place or be on the left shoulder instead? Its just an eye sore to me.

Edited November 5, 2015 by PurpleLegionary

[SwartJas]

De needs to stop creating frames that are too reliant on all the adjustable paramenter to be effective, or they must give them and insane buff in one parameter so that you do not have to mod for it.

 

This Saryn rework smashed her into the ground. She is too gimmicky, I enjoy the idea of synergy around he abilities, but DE will need to buff them significant;y to make her worth the effort,(e.g. and Equinox can do the same amount of damage in less time by just using her ult and killing three guys with a gun, at a fraction of the energy.)

I am actually very dissapointed by the rework. There have been hundereds of fan suggestiosn on how her kit could have been improved and DE seemed to sitll do their own thing without thinking it through all the way.

This was not a rework, it was a reduction in her ability to damage in an effecient manner. They prunned her too harshly and now she will never bloom again.

[StaticNoob]

While i like the general direction taken with Saryn's rework, after some playtesting i feel that there are a number of issues that still need some work.

 

1) Unless you want to go melee, you're almost being forced to use a toxin weapon for the spore/miasma synergy. However, because toxin is a component of both corrossive and viral dmg types, this leaves little room in terms of weapon choice/build. So far Torid seems to be a clear winner here, being able to bounce around toxin stacks and spores among large groups of enemies.

 

2)Energy being required to pull of the combos

 

3) Various QoL things/small fixes, e.g. Spore delay, spores being lost on enemy death, unreliable spore targeting

 

4) Status duration does not seem all to helpful

 

Some suggested approaches to deal with these issues:

0)Spores should appear instantly on targets and pop on death (though not in full strength-reduced duration or range sounds sensible)

 

1)Move away from the pure toxin/viral theme and make spore transfer all/all elemental status effects. Perhaps alter Miasma accordingly. This way, Saryn would be far more flexible in weapon choice. Cold, Radiation and Blast would also provide much needed CC capabilities when spread.

 

2)Make Toxic Lash also affect ranged weapons. Not my personal choice, just including it because a lot of people seem to like it.

 

3)Give her a new passive. Status duration is not very useful in the first place and even less so, considering that most Saryn loadouts will be having an easy time reapplying them anyway. Some sort of energy/health restoration for every enemy killed while affected by toxin/viral would be a unique effect and help bth survivability as well as the intented ability-synergy playstyle

[JohnySkarr]

The only good thing about the rework is the new skin, which I must say, looks absolutely gorgeous.

 

Pre-rework Saryn was already pretty bad, her only redeeming trait was a bug in Miasma that made it deal more damage with negative duration, but damage abilities are not good in high level missions. So her only strength was map-clearing, but only in low-level missions, and only due to a bug.

 

Her rework fixed that bug, and added some QoL stuff, but it was not enough. Saryn is now very weak, on the same level as Mag and Oberon.

 

Besides, damage-over-time abilities are bad, when the focus of the game is killing as many enemies as possible, in the shortest amount of time, before they kill you. Which they can do in seconds, due to ridiculous scaling, but that's another problem entirely.

 

I gotta say, I'm quite disappointed. DE was talking so much about this rework, and it turned out to be a (needless) nerf.

 

We had the amazing Excalibur rework, and great QoL changes to Valkyr and Oberon (who is still weak, but the changes only made him better), but this is just bad.

[bubbabenali]

So, after some tweaking I can say thanks to the Ignis at least Saryn can now be p12win

 

Full effective and so much str/ range than possible and threw the complete energypool to the enemies and pop all spores at once with one Ignis blast - gg.

[Sunslayer31]

So, what do i think about this rework:

 

Spore - Good enough, do exactly what i need from it.

 

Molt - At high levels it cant last long enough to do anything. Snow globe mechanic shoud be enough to make it viable.

 

Toxic lash - Extra spore spreading mechanic is fine, but damage bonus is too small to go melee only and damage reduction works only while blocking, means that you NEED to go melee only in order to use it. Make damage buff significantly stronger, so we can fight at high level with melee or make damage reduction work always, so we can go into close combat with our guns and use quick melee to spread spores and proc toxic.

 

Miasma - I like the idea of combos, but it's still not enough damage, especially for amount of energy that required for them. Increase damage from combo and (again) make molt more durable, it's hard to do combos with molt if it dies instantly. And it will be good to make it last longer but weaker for better CC. Also, why reduce total damage even after making spam not viable?

 

Stats - Energy buff makes life easier, but it is still not enough to make a combo, even without toxic lash. Health and armor... So, you make close combat oriented frame, that already have almost nothing for survivability and CC, and then reduce health and exchange it for insignificant amount of armor? Seriously?

 

Overall - I can't say that rework is bad, maybe because i never used full minmax for miasma, using regen. molt gunplay and contagion when leveling. Still, saryn don't have reliable CC and/or survivability for close combat, and damage is not good enough. It is not RIP, but i was expecting more from this rework.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Sunslayer31

[DraccoDoom]

Well they do get stunned don't forget. It is a game after all, can't make it too easy. Most of the people are complaining because there are frames that can do the same job better. I still use Latron Prime over many other guns for one reason, I enjoy it more. It doesn't do more damage, it isn't faster at killing and it requires me to aim for headshots but it's an enjoyable way of playing for me. The people who like this rework are the ones who like to get more involved in their gameplay, not just sit back chillin and pressing 1 button, they're madly bouncing the room, taking cover, using combos and having a ball. It's a choice of playstyle, not everybody is concerned with purely how much DPS a weapon can do and how quickly we can rush through a mission. If I'm going to farm the void, I probably won't take Saryn, just as if I'm going to farm cores on Triton, I'll take Frost or Mag. But if I'm planning to enjoy a game with my friends, then I might take Saryn and enjoy the style of play rather than worrying about how fast I'm killing things and whether or not I'm going to be top of the scoreboard.

Yeah but Latron P is still a good weapon that don't fall off to much compeered to others if you forma/mod it good. And has very good ammo consumption.

 

You can't compeer Saryn rework to Latron. She need to use way more energy now, stay closer to enemy or in melee range optimally, use more powers one after another yet she does less dmg per second, there is no buff here compeered to the old one nerf in every aspect her gameplay.

Edited November 5, 2015 by DraccoDoom

[Raso719]

I dig that they upped her energy pool, since they are basically forcing us to use multiple abilities in order to have a damage output comparable to what she use to have. That said it's not like her other abilities are cheap.

If they're all meant to combo off of each other I think it only makes sense that yhe cost of her other abilities be reduced a tad. Otherwise I feel like we're spending more energy to have less utility and damage output than similar frames.

Agian, I'm down with the skill combos. I just feel it needs a little work.

[Raso719]

I dig that they upped her energy pool, since they are basically forcing us to use multiple abilities in order to have a damage output comparable to what she use to have. That said it's not like her other abilities are cheap.

If they're all meant to combo off of each other I think it only makes sense that yhe cost of her other abilities be reduced a tad. Otherwise I feel like we're spending more energy to have less utility and damage output than similar frames.

Agian, I'm down with the skill combos. I just feel it needs a little more work.

[S0V3REiGN]

I am going to need to test her more, I brought her with 95 duration, 160 efficiency, 155 power strength and 145 range for few runs of triton. Felt underwhelming, I will try with more power duration and see how that works.

[1nn0m1ne]

Well, I dare to say that I would welcome this Saryna rework if only minor changes could have happened.

In my humble opinion there are onlys slight tweaks needed:

1st ability definitely needs AOE for its current energy cost.

2nd ability - just imagine it leaving the bait while giving Saryna 2-3 seconds of invisibility, even not affected with duration modes this will give enemies an opportunity to switch their priority.

3rd ability - please give us more significant damage multiplier & melee Saryna will see the light especially with the previous ability taken into account.

4th ability - all it needs is range, leave aside it's current damage, ridiculous stun time, but seriously - give it more range.

On having these modifications implemented Saryna would become one of the most enjoyable warframes to play with!

WIth respect and hopes to be heard.

[Xarteros]

I think a lot of people are overreacting a bit. This won't take too much to fix, and DE has slapped on some pretty quick fixes in the past.

Base changes: Saryn needs more base damage & base range so that the mods sacrificed to power efficiency/duration aren't as much as a loss, so just a basic stat change (Notably base damage increase to Toxic Lash)

Ability wise; 

Spore needs soft-targeting, and to detonate on enemy death automatically with a chance to spread to nearby enemies. Spores that are popped by shooting or with Toxic Lash need to have extra range, to reward skilled attackers. All spores popped by weapons or Toxic Lash should also drop health orbs, making Saryn more of a team player and also a bit more self sufficient (also negates the risk of closing in melee and helps reduce the impact of the health reduction).

~This means you can cast spore on a few enemies around the room quickly, and just focus on killing if you like. Once you get the ball rolling, the only time your 'plague' will die off is when there aren't enough enemies to sustain the infection, which also prevents it from being OP (since there are plenty of natural lulls in enemies on any mission)

Toxic Lash should affect nearby allies like War Cry, and be re-castable so you can add another ally by re-casting at any point. This helps Saryn be even more of a team player, by not only boosting overall team damage, but helping the team to spread more toxin procs around and pop spores, so Saryn can use the team to boost her Miasma damage

Miasma can be fixed almost entirely by making it leave a static cloud effect behind. Enemies who walk into the cloud should be immediately stunned, as it used to be (and leaving/re-entering stuns again, as most of those effects work). Once an enemy has been inside the Miasma zone, they should continue taking damage for the remaining duration, even if they leave the zone, otherwise the damage would be too insignificant. Multiple Miasma zones need to stack, allowing you to create powerful overlapping choke points, and utilizing spore/molt/toxic lash to spread procs around and make those (now long-lasting) Miasma zones all the more deadly. It also needs its corrosive proc back.

We're already dealing with DoT instead of burst DPS, which is detrimental enough, so it should still be fair, considering the preposterous amount of burst DPS other frames can very easily/cheaply rack up.


With these changes, Saryn would become much more team-friendly (with team damage buffs and the ability to generate health orbs). Using her spores to spread around would become inherently much easier, but still more rewarding to people utilising the other skills (and rewarding team efforts too). Base buffs to her strength/range would compensate for the overall lack of effectiveness for a "DoT" class at high level, and would allow a greater diversity for mod builds (allowing players to reasonably sacrifice certain stats to boost others). The ability to leave behind Miasma zones fits perfectly with the DoT caster nature that DE seem to want for Saryn, and would become a very effective tool at blocking choke points and protecting targets against close-range units. 

With these changes, a Saryn would be able to run around, leaving clouds of Miasma everywhere while spreading plagues left and right. You can still argue that "WF isn't made for Damage over Time", but with all the damage bonuses you'd be getting from stacked Miasmas, plus the extra Miasma damage from Viral/Toxin procs (from your spore plague) you would be melting enemies behind you before you had time to turn around. Taking out an entire room in 30 seconds of DoT is just as effective as taking 30 seconds to run-and-gun to clear it

Edited November 5, 2015 by Xarteros

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Yeah but Latron P is still a good weapon that don't fall off to much compeered to others if you forma/mod it good. And has very good ammo consumption.

 

You can't compeer Saryn rework to Latron. She need to use way more energy now, stay closer to enemy or in melee range optimally, use more powers one after another yet she does less dmg per second, there is no buff here compeered to the old one nerf in every aspect her gameplay.

Oh wow... Mind like a steel trap. It's called an example my friend and in this case, to make the point I made it is very viable. You and I we have a different mindset, I DON'T CARE if it's a buff or nerf, it makes the frame more interesting for me to play. I enjoy the additional challenge that's been added. Whereas some people are annoyed that she can't tank as well anymore, I enjoy the added layer of challenge to get into melee range and use her skills effectively. I play games for fun, not to see how quickly I can kill the room.

 

And before someone says, "whooo added challenge, you're so pro etc"  If it's not an added layer of challenge then why are you complaining about her HP?

Edited November 5, 2015 by Zilchy

[Sabrewolfe]

I don't understand this nerf at all.

First is simply the health nerf, which makes no sense.

Then the abilities have all been nerfed.

One major gripe is that all the abilities now need to be used together to even be effective ... but for them to be useful you need all the positive attributes now ...

You need to cast nearly all the abilities for any of them to be effective which means more energy consumption (let alone the hassle of spreading spores anyway) so you're like okay I'll put on fleeting expertise to cope with the demand for casting a lot ... oh wait your duration is then massively reduced (by like a half) which means your spores don't last as long. And your miasma does less damage etc.

Literally what's the point in these nerfs? There is no benefit spending a crap load of energy to get all this synergy going.

Where does Saryn sit now then?

Even Oberon is a better crowd control and damage dealer than Saryn now.

[Girthpanda]

Maybe... just maybe, casue it was overpowered and abused?

[AM-Bunny]

Because her old playstyle facilitated a mindless, boring method of play that the devs want to move away from.

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

Because "press 4 to wipe the room" is boring.

 

Besides, most Saryn players only use her 2 and 4, which isn't what DE wants.

[Stormandreas]

Dude... what the hell are you talking about?

Saryn got BUFFED! She's now a proper DoT Poison Frame.

Her power max went WAAAAAAY up, and now you can easily cast all the powers easily with even a little efficiency, not to mention the powers now have more range (except miasma).

You clearly don't understand the way that Saryn was designed to work then. You have to combine her powers, to cause incredible amounts of damage. I pitted her against 20 level 100 Ancient healers, and killed them all within less than a minute, but using the spores (which spread over a MASSIVE area), Toxic Lash to spread Toxic damage too, and then Miasma to do 4k damage EVERY SECOND FOR 4 SECONDS! THATS 16K DAMAGE JUST FROM MIASMA!