Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[RHuckebein]

~'The entire rework needs to be reverted'. No, there is a lot of great potential in the rework that can fix Saryn from being so useless and boring. Try to fix the changes to make them better instead of demanding they restart the entire thing, because you're not helping anyone achieve anything.

Easy fixes

Stats:

~Either boost health back up to normal and keep the increased armour as is (keeping her as a slow tanky frame) to compensate the increased need for melee action, or increase her speed and revert her health/armour values to the previous settings (making her a bit less armoured, but faster and just as healthy)

~Increase base range of all abilities to make it more feasible to sacrifice a bit of range for other mods. Currently, her range is so low that increased range is mandatory for basically every possible build. If she's going to become a plague-spreading caster-themed frame, she needs comparable range.

Abilities:

 

~Toxic Lash: Needs to apply to nearby allies, like War Cry. Must be re-castable, so you can re-cast it for allies without needing to wait for its duration to end. This makes Saryn much more of a team player, giving allies a damage buff. It also means that allies can help burst Saryn's spores and continue spreading viral procs

Instead of a blocking bonus, Toxic Lash should give Saryn (and affected allies) a small regeneration effect based on the ticks of the Toxin procs each attack inflicts. This means stacking heaps of toxin procs also stacks a fair amount of health regeneration and makes Saryn awesome for team play, while also compensating her own survivability issues. As toxin procs end on enemy death, so would the regeneration, so you would need to keep engaging new enemies to keep the healing up, preventing it from being OP. Saryn's passive 25% boost to status duration means she would potentially regen more out of each Toxic Lash proc than her allies using other warframes

~Miasma: Needs to fill the area with a cloud, instead of only affecting enemies present at the time. Any enemy inside the cloud or who later enters it needs to be stunned initially, with a random chance to be stunned by each tick of damage. This gives her back a bit of CC which adds to her survivability and her usefulness in a team. Damage needs to be stackable, so multiple casts of Miasma can turn choke points into DoT death traps, leaving Saryn free to use her other abilities instead of spamming 4 so frequently. If an enemy leaves the Miasma zone(s), they need to continue to take the damage over time for the remaining duration(s), otherwise the damage would be negligible. 

Probably most importantly, Miasma needs to go back to doing corrosive procs per tick. Her damage is otherwise laughable because although base corrosive damage is useful, high-armoured enemies just scale up so ridiculously at high levels.

 

 

All of these ideas are really, really good.  I especially like the idea of the toxic lash buff giving a benefit for enemies taking ticks of poison damage, though I'd prefer a way for saryn to self-restore energy even if it's just something like 'if an enemy dies with a toxin proc on it she recovers a tiny amount.'

[Leriel]

I'm not sure whether if its a bug but Torid does not increase the Toxin damage transfer when popping the spores. Is it due to the fact that it burst all 3 spores in one shot? 

[bubbabenali]

Funfact: A Synoid Gammacor with a gas build is a better Saryn, becuz all you do is aim and spread the gas to proc the toxin on to everyone.

I play a melee build at the moment with the lash augment for gas everywhere.

But to be honest I'd rather hack and slash around with a staggered shield Mesa

[--Sensei--]

Off topic... but this confuses me. I love using Ballistic Battery with snipers/single shot weapons.

 I also use opticor on my mirage and mesa and opticor is a single shot/sniper type of thing, so idk what banding is saying either

[--Sensei--]

I play a melee build at the moment with the lash augment for gas everywhere.

But to be honest I'd rather hack and slash around with a staggered shield Mesa

 

Yeh pretty much, essentially what I can do with Synoid Gammacor gas build is basically what Saryn does, but better because I'm not wasting 175 energy to do it and I'm not limited or restricted to do x y or z, also I can use other frames that can probably buff it further than Saryn can, ie Mirage.

 

Synoid Gammacor gas build for the new Saryn? =D

Edited November 6, 2015 by --Sensei--

[Unholyrequiem]

Has anyone tested to see if gas procs affect Miasma? If so then the Telos Boltor OP.

[Rhundis]

Well, with spore now activating on death and spreading with a reduced range it makes it much more useful the more ENEMIES there are. I literally watched as spore became self procing, and its pretty much like popcorn, starts slow then ramps up until everyone is dead.

[Dragonofdarkness13]

I've been play testing Saryn almost non-stop since the rework ... I'm really happy to see the Spores pop on death now, Step in the right direction.

Now I think I have a few suggestions that aren't too unreasonable.

1. Health - Return her Health back to what it was, you want us to use Toxic Lash Lowering the heal doesn't make sense in conjunction with at melee power
2. Molt - Increase it's detonation range, Increase it's aggro Draw, Either add Regen molt into the power and change the augment to something like a absorbing energy as the molt takes damage OR Increase the recovery of Regen.Molt to 100 per tick / increase the speed at which you recover

3. Toxic Lash - If you don't feel like the Health returning to the way it was is something you wanna give us, than make Toxic Lash affect your fire arms, otherwise, Return the health as mentioned in #2, Make it a toggle
4. Miasma - Put the Corrosive proc Back on Miasma, Like the health there was NO reason to remove it and she's going to need it for armored targets... Plus it helps your team

5. Passive - I think this needs to be boosted to 50% rather than 25% .. also Clear up if it's just her powers that have the boost or do her weapons get this too .. can it stack with Continuous Misery ?

[DeMonkey]

Remove Toxic Lash ffs. It does not fit her AT ALL. We have good melee frames now, you do not need to keep forcing more.

 

Yeah, not going to lie I feel kinda forced to melee if I want to make the best Saryn. Excalibur and Valkyr both let you be perfectly optimal with guns if you want despite being melee frames. But with Saryn, yeah, not really feeling it.

[RHuckebein]

I don't mind the idea of saryn as a melee frame, she's just too fragile for it since she doesn't even have any emergency CC/escape powers of note.  Spore and molt are decent and toxic lash is almost worth using.

 

The main things she needs:

 

1: her health back
2: either a bit of speed or a lot more armor
3: Spores should have a bit more base range for explosions

4: Toxic Lash should have a more tangible passive benefit, blocking boost is a joke - if you're up in melee attacking you aren't blocking and enemies will just chew her up immediately.  Either a straight damage reduction a-la mesa/trinity or some HP/EN recovery effect based on toxin damage ticks around her (I like the idea of recovering a small amount of HP with each tick and, if HP is full, a small amount of energy - which would also help with her thirstiness)

5: Miasma should have CC/Armor-reducing properties

 

Then she'd be a solid frame.  Not necessarily a frame with a well-defined role, but a solid damage frame.

[Misgenesis]

There is no nerf, only change and butthurt

[Weltraumfred]

I don't mind the idea of saryn as a melee frame, she's just too fragile for it since she doesn't even have any emergency CC/escape powers of note.  Spore and molt are decent and toxic lash is almost worth using.

 

The main things she needs:

 

1: her health back

2: either a bit of speed or a lot more armor

3: Spores should have a bit more base range for explosions

4: Toxic Lash should have a more tangible passive benefit, blocking boost is a joke - if you're up in melee attacking you aren't blocking and enemies will just chew her up immediately.  Either a straight damage reduction a-la mesa/trinity or some HP/EN recovery effect based on toxin damage ticks around her (I like the idea of recovering a small amount of HP with each tick and, if HP is full, a small amount of energy - which would also help with her thirstiness)

5: Miasma should have CC/Armor-reducing properties

 

Then she'd be a solid frame.  Not necessarily a frame with a well-defined role, but a solid damage frame.

 

Awesome suggestions. Giving Toxic Lash a little regeneration which correlates with her toxic procs, and having it bleed over into energy when her health is full (which it won't be most of the time) sounds really nice. Helps with her energy and fragility issues right away.

 

As for Miasma and armor reduction ... just let it proc corrosive on every tick, that should do the trick.

 

Saryn would then be a Jack of all Trades, with decent damage, survivability, and debuffing skills via corrosive and viral procs.

 

If we had these changes, I'd pack up all my salt and be a happy gamer.

[MaverickZero]

I'd like to point out one unmentioned issue: Saryn's kit gets blocked by Sap aura which is more than likely going to be implemented into more enemy units in the future.

[fatpig84]

The new Spore is pretty good now. Because it spreads on death.

So even if I did nothing but chuck spores at my enemies, I will not be left out as my team mates can help me detonate em. 

 

That is a good start.

 

2-1-4 is now the currently powerful enough to qualify as a semi nuke power.

But ultimately I will just stick to sporing and hit miasma for a stun.

[RealPandemonium]

ATM she is great agains flesh units, but Amored units are just laughing at those poisons & spores. Miasa needed a guaranteed Corrosive proc or better would be guaranteed corosive spread on destoyed molt.

Armor in general is a problem at high levels, and that goes doubly for powers (since we can't mod them for armor-ignoring damage.)  I think we should be campaigning for DE to finally fix armor scaling in general instead of asking for bandaids on literally everything.  

 

That said, Saryn actually has it better than most since Miasma ignores 75% of Ferrite armor (while also dealing 75% bonus damage to it) and Viral procs halve TTK regardless of either armor type's DR.  

 

Still literally no reason to use this frame as it exists now. At least with the old Miasma we had a reason to use Saryn at all.

 

Now, she cannot kill quickly enough to crowd control and survivability through damage dealing. The stun on Miasma does not last even a full second, making it insufficient for crowd control. And her Molt, even with regen, neither draws aggro well enough not lasts long enough not spreads enough toxin, to offer her survivability with that strategy. Saryn is a throwaway frame now. 

 

I get what DE was going for. But admit you missed the mark and fix it. We have an utterly useless frame at this point. Even the fire mage can deal more damage to armored enemies than the Toxic frame now. And since the later parts of the game are all about armor, well...there you have it: Largely useless frame.

If you can't exploit it to get 30 rotation Cs out of each key with little effort, it's clearly trash.  

 

Also, anyone staying for level 70+ is gonna have CPs.  Also, Miasma will beat Accelerant-boosted WoF against a group of level 70 Heavy Gunners.  New Miasma is only 10% weaker than old Miasma when the x3 multiplier is in effect, and if you count the Viral proc it's actually 86% stronger. The difference is that you have to wait a few seconds for the damage to tick (and the enemies are stunned for those few seconds anyway.)  Miasma's stagger lasts  4-5 seconds on humanoids, 3-4 on MOAs and most Infested, and 2 seconds on Chargers.

 

The problem with your posts is that they're relatively well-written and appear thoroughly researched, which makes them all the more toxic since people are more likely to take them seriously despite their inherent bias and incorporated falsehoods.  

 

 +++++++++++++++    small energy refund on spore pop will feed this beast    ++++++++++++++++

Even if only gave 1 energy that would mean infinite energy pretty easily.  It would need a significant cooldown.

 

 

 

Ignis with viral damage.

 

But I found myself hitting 4 to give Ignis time to do damage, soo yea.

 

Ignis with 100% Gas proc is what you should be exploiting.  I wonder if they'll nerf Ignis, or nerf Spore?

[StratosOmega]

I just love how Saryn works currently. It has the nice feeling of devastating damage without being a no brainer.

Old problems were solved, duration is now somewhat necessary. Her armor rating is pure love.

[inflatable_fish]

oh while we're at it:

 

please make Molt targetable like Loki's Decoy. as it is now, if you cast it while moving (which you will 99% of the time), you have to actually step back/turn around to target it with Spore, which means you a) are wasting time you could otherwise spend on shooting; b) are getting hit instead of the Molt clone anyway because you're closer to the enemy, which is dumb.

[akira_him]

-snip-

 

Ignis with 100% Gas proc is what you should be exploiting.  I wonder if they'll nerf Ignis, or nerf Spore?

nerf miasma!

[Arkhenbarn]

My feedback on Saryn :

 

+ :

- The synergy between powers has given her a unique style I lov.e

- We should see less brainless "press 4 to win".

 

- :

- The health "sacrifice". I mean, why seriously ? I'd rather never get the armor buff, if I can keep my health pool... Saryn didn't benefit at all in terms of survivability from this change.

- The cost of the powers that has not been revisited to encourage the synergy. We have to use our powers way more to get all the benefits, but our energy pool is not adapted to allow it.

- The cap for blocking damage reduction with Toxic Lash. Excalibur can block EVERYTHING with his Exalted Blade, with less energy... Why couldn't Saryn ?

- The damage overall (as they are, or buffs), are underpowered in my opinion. It kinda "forces" us to boost Strength, which sacrifices Efficiency and/or Duration and thus the synergy,  to make our powers viable against higher level enemies.

[BlackCoMerc]

Armor in general is a problem at high levels, and that goes doubly for powers (since we can't mod them for armor-ignoring damage.)  I think we should be campaigning for DE to finally fix armor scaling in general instead of asking for bandaids on literally everything.  

 

That said, Saryn actually has it better than most since Miasma ignores 75% of Ferrite armor (while also dealing 75% bonus damage to it) and Viral procs halve TTK regardless of either armor type's DR.  

 

If you can't exploit it to get 30 rotation Cs out of each key with little effort, it's clearly trash.  

 

Also, anyone staying for level 70+ is gonna have CPs.  Also, Miasma will beat Accelerant-boosted WoF against a group of level 70 Heavy Gunners.  New Miasma is only 10% weaker than old Miasma when the x3 multiplier is in effect, and if you count the Viral proc it's actually 86% stronger. The difference is that you have to wait a few seconds for the damage to tick (and the enemies are stunned for those few seconds anyway.)  Miasma's stagger lasts  4-5 seconds on humanoids, 3-4 on MOAs and most Infested, and 2 seconds on Chargers.

 

The problem with your posts is that they're relatively well-written and appear thoroughly researched, which makes them all the more toxic since people are more likely to take them seriously despite their inherent bias and incorporated falsehoods.  

 

Even if only gave 1 energy that would mean infinite energy pretty easily.  It would need a significant cooldown.

 

Ignis with 100% Gas proc is what you should be exploiting.  I wonder if they'll nerf Ignis, or nerf Spore?

 

 

What falsehoods? 

 

Ember does not require three other abilities and more than 125 energy to nuke a room. Nor does Nova. Nova can nuke a room with Antimatter drop from a significant distance, without putting herself in harm's way in the manner Saryn is required to do. 

 

Equinox can use a stun lasting several seconds to get within range of a group, after having built up oodles of damage quite easily, and pop that damage with virtually no risk, in a second, without spending all of her energy to do so. 

 

The new Saryn, on the other hand, is clumsy and difficult to use. And by difficult I dont mean challenging, or engaging. I mean cumbersome. And add to that, the only thing you get from the effort is a quarter second stun and a "nuke" that is about as powerful as Volt's. 

 

It might of course be possible to get slightly better damage than this. Provided you are willing to melee. Which I'm not. Not with a low armor, low health frame whose decoy has no survivability nor aggro draw. There are - just off the top of my head - four frames in the game who excel at melee to a degree which absolutely shames Saryn in the role. So tell me why I would use Saryn as a Melee frame over Atlas, Excalibur, Valkyr or even Rhino, once his Iron Skin overhaul is released. 

 

As established, Saryn does not excel at melee. Nor does she excel at nuke. Nor at Crowd Control. She lacks survivability and her "synergy" is at present a clumsy mess of ability spamming of that closely resembles an MMO damage rotation combo-counter. Which might work with tab targeting in a game where you dont need to look at combat but fails utterly in Warframe.

 

And the same can be said for damage over time. Justice procs are literally killing my enemies before Saryn can. Reliably. And that's when playing solo. Whereas Saryn once cleared rooms for people - or parts of rooms, anyway; Miasma radius was never GOOD - now people need to clear rooms for Saryn, and then WAIT on her to get her combo going. With the damage other frames and weapons can deal, why WAIT on damage over time in Warframe, when you can simply use something that kills or crowd controls things RIGHT NOW?

 

Saryn has no role, no point, no purpose. She contributes nothing to a team. There exists literally no reason to play this iteration of Saryn. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by BlackCoMerc

[Brozime]

Posted in here earlier but this explains in much more detail

 

[RHuckebein]

New Miasma is only 10% weaker than old Miasma when the x3 multiplier is in effect, and if you count the Viral proc it's actually 86% stronger. The difference is that you have to wait a few seconds for the damage to tick (and the enemies are stunned for those few seconds anyway.)  Miasma's stagger lasts  4-5 seconds on humanoids, 3-4 on MOAs and most Infested, and 2 seconds on Chargers.

 

You do realize that Saryn could spread viral before 17.10, right?  'if you count the viral proc it's actually 86% stronger' is a blatant lie, as if you were playing against high-level enemies you were already viral procing them before using miasma.

[BlackCoMerc]

One last thought: I especially like how it was apparently wrong for Saryn to nuke whole groups in a second while its perfectly okay for Excalibur to do the same. 

 

In order for Old (aka, good) Miasma to function, Saryn needed to get into close proximity to a group. This is still true, except that now, Miasma is mostly a garbage nuke worth about as much as Overload, with a stun lasting a fraction as long as Sonar or Chaos. 

 

But Excalibur? You put him in the same proximity to the same group? One, two energy waves, and the group is dead. In a blink. In the cast of one ability for 25 or so energy. 

 

Of course, Saryn has to work just to get within Miasma range of a group. Use her decoy, spam Spores, dodge and juke. All to get within range to launch a Miasma you hope will kill something.

 

Meanwhile, Excalibur just blinds the room, Dashes into the group - killing on the way - and nukes them all with Exalted Blade energy waves, taking down straggers with his Javelins. 

 

None of which is to say Excalibur needs a nerf. Quite the contrary. This should be the new bar frames need to MEET. Instead, DE is nerfing other frames into the ground at Excalibur's feet and I for one would like to know why. 

[Stolen1101]

She lost 10% EHP. She's still the 2nd highest EHP Frame in the game.

 

 

 

 

Your math is super wonky, here's what I got:

 

 

The %Change is roughly -10.5% when using all mods, -11% when using some like SF or AA

 

She went from being 5th to being 6th tankiest, just under the survivability of Rhino P

[BlackCoMerc]

Posted in here earlier but this explains in much more detail

 

 

This says everything that needs saying between 2 and 4.5 minutes into the video. 

 

"You're asking me to get within melee range." Yes, DE is. And herein lies Saryn's first problem. As I stated - and this review plainly states - look at other frames that prefer melee range. They outperform Saryn to a degree that cannot be expressed in words. 

 

"When I close that distance, when I get into range, I need results, and those results need to be immediate."

 

This. Sums up everything. Its all that needs saying. Atlas with his scaling punches; Excalibur; Equinox, with a massive AoE stun and a AoE Nuke; Valkyr; Even Rhino with Stomp and Battlecry...all of these frames get immediate results from within melee range. Even Mirage with a good weapon and her clones offers better results, from within melee range, than Saryn can hope to. Heck, I would take Ember or Chroma at close range over Saryn as she is now. 

 

"There is no reason to be this frame" (or very close to that statement).

 

Exactly.