Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[bubbabenali]

Don't play Saryn much, don't even have a potato on her, thus not able to test her properly. So I have a question for people who played her after rework: now that she relies on on viral and toxic procks that much, how does she perform agains Healers who suck all status effects and have high resistance against those procs?

Kill them like everyone else and use your Galatine of course.

[Helch0rn]

"Use Gas Ignis" So Saryn HAS to be locked into one weapon to be useful? That sounds like bad design if she needs a crutch to be able to do stuff.

Read my post again because you seem to have missed something

 

I said I use a gas Ignis, I did not say you have to.

 

I use the Ignis for fun and profit not because it is needed.

 

Protip: you can use any weapon to pop the spores, you just have to hit them

[(PSN)l0r3n7step]

Every thread. Every single thread. Oh my god.

 

This is very simple. Decreasing an enemy's health by 50% is identical to increasing your damage by +100%. Completely identical. Think about it. Really. Just think. Please. Please think.

 

And after thinking start reading. Health is health. Damage 2.0 is multifactorial and complex. Toxin damage is toxin damage.

Completely different.

Just read. Please. Please read.

[ShortCat]

Kill them like everyone else and use your Galatine of course.

What I mean is, when she relies on status procs that much and one enemy unit covers the whole group by collecting the procs, how much is she gimped by them?

[(PSN)OMGITSNUKERXD]

she got a "berf" ... buff and a nerf at same time T-T

Berf.Guess I'll use it in the next poll.

[(PSN)SancticuS]

A warframe is only playable if it is "superstrong". All warframes must have the ability to clear the whole map with the press of a button, without any trade-offs or disadvantages of whatsoever. No sarcasm. I just want effortless fun.

 

Saryn was deemed "superstrong" before, even though her damage actually did fall off rather quite. She had the ability to clear a whole map of trash mobs for sure. She had one extremely weak ability Contagion and the 3 others were applicable and useable. So when a frame that had those things you list are "reworked" and lose all those features and become a overly complicated and melee oriented frame that excels at nothing while also getting a nerf to her EHP there is no reason to voice any concerns right?

 

Oh and the mindless super argument that every Saryn user ever or people who raise concerns "just want effortless fun" "lazy" "only press one button" is in no way over generalization at all.

 

Some people even quote the OP as being elitist, when in effect that applies to any of those using such arguments as "I press more buttons therefore I am more l33t"

 

This solution is also quoted as a way to fix players issues with regards to the game. Yeah loosing players is such a good solution I wonder why not more developers embrace such infinite logic.

 

 

Which brings me to this

 

So much denial in here. All these posts seem to just support blindly every change DE makes. They can show you all in your face cold, hard evidence and you'd still cover your ears and eyes and deny it. What the hell is wrong with you all? Saryn is completely all over the place stat wise and her skills are messed up just to create artificial complexity.

 

pretending that there's no problems doesn't make it go away.

 

It is not even possible to have a normal debate regarding any change when you get such indepth superb constructive answers as those I listed.

Edited November 11, 2015 by [DE]Danielle
Removed hidden posts

[NKDG]

If anyone is still defending this rework, try this video on for size.

 

 

It's not necessesarilly the actual way she plays is useless, it's more the fact that the numbers don't back up any way to scale into late game.

 

as well as his thoughts on possibly fixing it

 

Edited November 7, 2015 by NKDG

[Dreadwire]

I.... don't get it

[Denwise]

This nonsense about how people didn't want to press '4' to win - play another frame. People saying that they're being "forced" to play that way - the feeling is self-inflicted. You have options on other frames so use them.

 

Saryn filled a role of having a hefty AoE with a self-heal so she was amazing for so many things. This rework is total garbage. The new kit requires so much energy to pull off that it'd be better to simply shoot enemies and forget the skills altogether. You could run Fleeting, but with duration playing such a role in her new kit, it brings a whole mess of issues with its efficiency. The energy pool doesn't support these synergy concepts.

 

Thanks for killing my favorite run-and-gun frame. New skin looks great but you won't be getting my money to gift-wrap this steamy pile of a rework. Positive threads are saying to change my outlook and think of her as a disease-spreading melee combatant. Well, with lower health and a molt augment that isn't THAT good for close-combat, I'd rather have my nuker.

 

"I was so tired of just hitting '4'." WTF? That's like going to a buffet and eating your least favorite item hoping it was something more delicious like the food that was right-****ing-next to it.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Denwise

[VoidNomade]

Some people even quote the OP as being elitist, when in effect that applies to any of those using such arguments as "I press more buttons therefore I am more l33t"

 

I said the OP used elitist sub text. Text passages like "Next time you try to bring out fancy pencil math, remember that if you do not have proof for the very thing your argument depends on, you're standing on nothing." are snarky and elitist because he want to show how good his own arguments are. Something inappropriate if you just want to correct something with maths. Specially if the topic he wanted to correct had the intention to do something good for the community.

 

So you mix now what i´ve said with something i have nothing to do with. Stop that please.

Edited November 7, 2015 by VoidNomade

[BlackCoMerc]

All you need to know about Saryn:

 

-We went from press 2+4 to press 1 + 2

 

-By the time her Spore starts to spread and deal its damage, Ember, Equinox, Excalibur and Oberon have already killed the enemies and Nova has set them up to die to anything faster than Spore can do the job. 

[Kuestenjung]

What the hell is wrong with you all?

 

I would ask the same question to people like you.

Saryns revivisit is the first step into the right direction to balance this game without infinite enemy scaling.

 

 

"No nukers" we still have nukers and they are really good at what they do which is way faster and efficient than Saryn right now.

 

And what nuke frames do we have now? Saryn was the last nuke frame. You only could count Equinox as nuke frame but her nuke needs time and damage to charge up.

 

Lots of frames kill faster than Saryn, tank more damage, have skills that shine on their own and compliment others without a forced combo.

 

Oh no there are frames that can kill faster then Saryn? Is this your argument, cause it is a stupid argument. Every frame needs a synergy like Ember and now Saryn. Frames that have 1 or maybe 2 skills that outshine are only used for this skill(s).

[Djego27]

If anyone is still defending this rework, try this video on for size.

 

 

It's not necessesarilly the actual way she plays is useless, it's more the fact that the numbers don't back up any way to scale into late game.

 

Why? It is clearly shown that this person doesn't use power strength, falls into the new player trap of adding to much duration, like so many do with Ember and does not use proper weapons to keep viral and toxin pocs up. Saryn currently does ok till L80 ish(quite similar to before the changes), but it is much more complex to play effective and lacks the utility and dps for high levels compared to a similar close range caster frame(what is Ember).

 

Spores:

 

Spores need some sort of CC component. Be it by slowing down targets under the effect or stun them for 2-4s when they get infected with spores. This is my main complain about the skill at L80+ and would help Saryn a lot to stay alive.

 

Molt:

 

Molt should probably lose the HP component being just duration based or absorb damage for the first 4s as extra HP like snow globe. The main problem is at high levels it dies so quick that it will not be much use if you want to revive somebody, it dies just as quick to L80+ tech as your frame itself(what is like halve a second). Combined with the slow/stun of spores this would also allow some more strategic placement in defence or survival to slow down enemy units from that direction.

 

Toxic Lesh:

 

Should be upped to 150% toxin damage added(affected by power strength, doubleing the toxic on weapons with both toxic mods) and apply to all weapons, not just melee. The garanteed toxic proc should use the total amount of toxic on the weapon as baseline when it comes to the dot amount instead of the damage on the weapon itself. This will give Saryn a fairly well scalable source of damage at high levels and lessen the need to spam miasma, puts the focus on status weapons(similar like with Ember till U17) while not being over punishing for useing other weapons that are not as good at toxin dot stacking, because of the garanteed toxic proc, useing the toxic modifier of the ability.

 

Miasma:

 

Misama should be slightly increased to 500 base damage, given the complexity to keep all dots up for full output.

 

Weapons:

 

Rakta Cernos or Rakta Balistica with a toxic modding and the AOE viral proc are fairly efficent. However both kind of lack the status to keep toxin up. Braton prime and prisma Grakata do work for toxin procs and keeping viral up with spores, however this is much more energy intensive at high levels. Embolist could work great on her if it would have a sufficent range(like 15 to 20m instead of 6m), since it combines a toxic status weapon with the AOE viral proc of red veil. Overall the game, different to Ember and fire(where you have 3 for all primary weapons and a primed one for the secondary weapond) simply lacks another toxin mod for weapons to archive high damage with the single element. A new NM mod that adds toxin damage and increases status duration would be fairly nice for the the new saryn.

 

Survivability:

 

I don't really agree on the HP nerf. Adding CC to spores and makeing molt more useful at high levels will fix most of the current issues most likely, however haveing the old HP back, given her much more active and close range gameplay would be helpful.

 

Edit:

 

Overall I do actually like the basic idea of the general rework, it makes the frame a lot more active to play and what weapons to use becomes a more important choice. The main problem currently is just that there are some issues, like surivivability, scalability(what is just as limited as before the changes in my opinion, since you depend on misama to much) and CC that need some changes to make the new concept overall more viable and enjoyable to play.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Djego27

[GhostLacuna]

Miasma with the rework works ok up until Armor scaling units hit around level 50. At level 70+ it does nada even if spore and lash has been used on the same enemy before miasma is cast.

 

1+2 or 1+3 is faster and deals more damage with less setup time then 1+2+4 or 1+3+4.

 

Still my melee weapons does the most damage when testing .....

[akira_him]

Why? It is clearly shown that this person doesn't use power strength, falls into the new player trap of adding to much duration, like so many do with Ember and does not use proper weapons to keep viral and toxin pocs up. Saryn currently does ok till L80 ish(quite similar to before the changes), but it is to much complex to play effective and lacks the utility and dps for high levels compared to a similar close range caster frame(what is Ember).

 

Watch the whole clip, He used strengths mods at latter part

Edited November 7, 2015 by akira_him

[NKDG]

Why? It is clearly shown that this person doesn't use power strength, falls into the new player trap of adding to much duration, like so many do with Ember and does not use proper weapons to keep viral and toxin pocs up. Saryn currently does ok till L80 ish(quite similar to before the changes), but it is much more complex to play effective and lacks the utility and dps for high levels compared to a similar close range caster frame(what is Ember).

Umm... if you look at the entire video, he returns to test it with a different build that is more akin to what you're talking about. His dragon nikana is based in radiation viral full status to keep it up, and it's still doing **** for dmg. (his "competent" build is about 15 minutes in)

Spores:

 

Spores need some sort of CC component. Be it by slowing down targets under the effect or stun them for 2-4s when they get infected with spores. This is my main complain about the skill at L80+ and would help Saryn a lot to stay alive.

 

Molt:

 

Molt should probably lose the HP component being just duration based or absorb damage for the first 4s as extra HP like snow globe. The main problem is at high levels it dies so quick that it will not be much use if you want to revive somebody, it dies just as quick to L80+ tech as your frame itself(what is like halve a second). Combined with the slow/stun of spores this would also allow some more strategic placement in defence or survival to slow down enemy units from that direction.

 

Toxic Lesh:

 

Should be upped to 150% toxin damage added(affected by power strength, doubleing the toxic on weapons with both toxic mods) and apply to all weapons, not just melee. The garanteed toxic proc should use the total amount of toxic on the weapon as baseline when it comes to the dot amount instead of the damage on the weapon itself. This will give Saryn a fairly well scalable source of damage at high levels and lessen the need to spam miasma, puts the focus on status weapons(similar like with Ember till U17) while not being over punishing for useing other weapons that are not as good at toxin dot stacking.

 

Miasma:

 

Misama should be sligthly increased to 500 base damage, given the complexity to keep all dots up for full output.

 

Weapons:

 

Rakta Cernos or Rakta Balistica with a toxic modding and the AOE viral proc are fairly efficent. However both kind of lack the status to keep toxin up. Braton prime and prisma Grakata do work for toxin procs and keeping viral up with spores, however this is much more energy intensive at high levels. Embolist could work great on her if it would have a sufficent range(like 15 to 20m instead of 6m), since it combines a toxic status weapon with the AOE viral proc of red veil. Overall the game, different to Ember and fire(where you have 3 for all primary weapons and a primed one for the secondary weapond) simply lacks another toxin mod for weapons to archive high damage with the single element. A new NM mod that adds toxin damage and increases status duration would be fairly nice for the the new saryn.

I also included his thoughts on improving saryn's rework in a post edit. 

Survivability:

 

I don't really agree on the HP nerf. Adding CC to spores and makeing molt more useful at high levels will fix most of the current issues most likely, however haveing the old HP back, given her much more active and close range gameplay would be helpful.

This is what he failed to mention  in his video, but it's been the biggest of sore spots in my opinion.

Edited November 7, 2015 by NKDG

[VoidWraith]

• Molt Revisions
  • Spore can be cast on Molt, infects units which attack Molt.
  • Miasma cast in range of Molt will feed into Molt, creating more damage on explosion.
  • All Spores on Molt Clones will detonate and spread on the clone’s death.
• General Revisions
  • Saryn now has a passive 25% increased Status effect duration.
  • Updated some visual FX on Saryn’s abilities.
  • Saryn can now cast Spore and Toxic Lash while moving.
  • Saryn’s base Armor is now 175.
  • Saryn’s base Health is now 125.
  • Saryn’s maximum Energy is now 150.

 

For Molt, when you say it feeds into it. I know it basically causes the Molt to explode with all apply effects of anything on Molt. So it procs Viral, and Toxin, because Molt death procs Toxin. But does that mean there are now two Miasma Radials (one at Molt's location, and one at the caster's?) Or is it only at the Molt's location?

 

I think with all the Skill synergy, the cost of energy is a li ttle high, even with energy efficiency, is very costly. So if it had the first effect, as mentioned where it radial damages at caster and Molt location, the effect it does and cost of the energy altogether, might be worth it?

I don't know, just my take. The damage output altogether is very VERY nice, though. It's just the energy cost after you set cast.

 

The Health she has now seems to be low, and not fit toxic lash, since you are melee'ing. The Armor is nice, but having the Health also helps too.

Edited November 7, 2015 by VoidWraith

[vrdwrst]

So Saryn got nerfed from godlike nuke master to only an excellent crowd crippler. Wow, that's so terrible. I'll have to actually shoot my Boltor Prime a few times.

[GhostLacuna]

And after thinking start reading. Health is health. Damage 2.0 is multifactorial and complex. Toxin damage is toxin damage.

Completely different.

Just read. Please. Please read.

 

Oh FFS DsMatticus has already had the patience to show you the basic math. 

 

X/(2Y) = (X/2)/Y

 

Math is not subjective its just is.

 

damage 2.0 is not complex in the slightest we have the formulas and can use math to see the results directly.

 

Also we where discussing viral procs not toxin damage what so ever.

 

Viral procs deal zero damage with a debuff  of - 50% health which is exactly 100% increased damage on that enemy during the viral proc.

 

M prime is a 100% increase in damage as well but its debuff is 75% slower movement speed of enemies as well as explosions on death.

 

If your going to discuss mechanics in this game perhaps you should take the time to actually understand what you are talking about.

 

Toxin procs deal poison which for your information is a flat 50% of your weapons or abilities base damage for 9 ticks in 8 seconds which by passes shields(making it effective against corpus)

 

Poison is only useful against ferrite +25%, flesh +50% it has no bonus against infested.  in fact is has -50% against fossilized  just as it has -25% against machinery and -25% vs robotic

 

The good thing about poison aka the procs from toxin is that it can stack. That is what makes the damage type good.

 

Viral the proc people seems to have "rediscovered" not that spore is saryns best ability can never stack. The proc itself is always -50% health over 6 seconds no matter what ability or weapon it is that deals the viral proc.

 

Once again please learn how the damage system works then we might actually listen because telling us to read when we have read far more about this game then you already does not do anything but waste our time. 

Edited November 7, 2015 by GhostLacuna

[fatpig84]

As I already said before, just spam 1 and use molt as needed to heal or take off the heat.

Don't bother with any fancy setups, just play as the same old Rejuv Molt + Venom Saryn.

 

Other setups are just a waste of time.

Edited November 7, 2015 by fatpig84

[Makinar]

People tend to forget that the majority of players were complaining before the hotfix came to rescue.

She isn`t far from the frame she needs to be but still the hotfix fixed a few things significantly.

Hope she gets there eventually.

Post your ideas in the warframe abilities Saryn feedback thread instead.

Upvote the ideas you like or post your ideas of how Saryn should work in that thread.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Makinar

[Thaumatos]

Let me make it simple for you. If the enemy has X health and you deal Y damage per shot, it will take you X/Y shots to kill that enemy. If something doubles your damage (2Y), then it will take you X/(2Y) shots to kill that enemy. If something halves the enemy's hitpoints (X/2), it will take you (X/2)/Y shots to kill that enemy. Fun fact: X/(2Y) = (X/2)/Y. They are the same damn thing. However many shots it took you to kill the enemy before, it will take half that many after doubling your damage. However many shots it took you to kill the enemy before, it will take half that many after halving their hitpoints. That is true for all X and for all Y. Because they do the exact same thing. Exact same.

 

If you are conceptualizing viral procs as dealing damage (which I suspect is the problem here), you are conceptualizing them wrong. Viral procs do exactly zero damage; they half the enemy's current and maximum hitpoints for their duration, and then when they end they double whatever hitpoints the enemy has left. If you slap a viral proc on someone and let it wear off without dealing any damage to them, they will have exactly as many hitpoints when the viral proc wears off as they did before you put it on them. If you slap a viral proc on someone and then murder them, it will take exactly half as much damage as it would have had you not put the viral proc on them at all and dealt the same amoun. if you slap a viral proc on someone and then deal non-fatal damage to them, when the proc wears off they will have lost twice as many hitpoints as they would have if you had not put the viral proc on them at all and dealt the same amount of damage. Viral procs are not damage, they are a damage multiplying debuff, and they are worth exactly +100%. Full stop, end of discussion. That's how they work and what they do. Putting a viral proc on someone is exactly like coating them with molecular prime (except molecular prime comes with extra bonuses).

Your second paragraph is runs exactly contradictory to what your first one says.  Viral is absolutely not 2x damage.  In most instances it can have that effect...but it isn't equal to 2x damage.  It isn't exactly the same...

 

You just explained why.

 

I think you're confused.

[Thaumatos]

M prime is a 100% increase in damage as well but its debuff is 75% slower movement speed of enemies as well as explosions on death.

MPrime is also an ability a frame gets that costs energy and can't happen every single time you shoot targets.

 

Whats with people and their apples-to-oranges comparisons?

[achromos]

I'll be honest with everyone here, full disclosure.  I was never a fan of saryn BECAUSE of her nuke spam.  Same reason I refused to play Mesa after a while, it was so mindless.  I applaud DE for making her skill set quite synergistic, and less mindless.  Yes, I am going to call what Saryn had, at least on the outside looking in:  A Mindless playstyle.

 

Now, hold-on I agree with you guys on how you are saying that:  Saryn is underpowered compared to all other frames as far as their kits go.  I spent the time since she was reworked to now to actually test her myself on outer terminus in Pluto and I was doing semi-fine, however Meanwhile as I was jumping through those hoops, setting up spores, and such to deal my damage a Ember for instance can just charge through the whole room and make what I was doing quite moot by just simply outright killing enemies by being in the room.  It was rather discouraging vs any other frame really, every time I'd get a good string of spores up, they'd just walts right in and everything would burn or die at least twice as fast as I had it going as Saryn.

 

No, I'm not complaining about Ember or other frames, heck Ember herself is in a good place finally.  I wouldn't mind Saryn being as slow as she is on set-ups if it scaled better, or was quicker and at least cost me less to do her full set-up .  I wouldn't mind it either if her ult was akin to World on fire.  Have it spread weaker spores on enemies within range in addition to the damage, and then those spores increase the damage slightly, and rinse and repeat while Miasma is up.  Give Saryn that full feeling of a Toxic frame...

 

As it is, it's hardly worth using Saryn outside of having fun with the new mechanics on a full Efficiency or melee build, but good luck doing applicable damage playing on anything with enemies higher then level 35, once you get 10 minutes in it's pretty much GG for the abilities while I am still going strong gun-wise and if I bring other frames... like trinity, mesa, excaliber, chroma, ect.  I can stay much longer I don't have to go through a three-ring circus just to do what other frames do with less damage then they do.

 

Imagine if as trinity to use blessing, you had to stay in range of a enemy that had both Energy Vampire and Well of life on it and have link working on it.  I imagine players would try to utilize well of life alot more just out of convenience.

 

I support DE in trying to take the mindlessness out of the game... I don't mind jumping through those hoops as saryn though I can see how people who were used to the pre-rework playstyle would mind it, but I actually like the idea... I just don't feel rewarded for actually DOING it.

[Exodess]

  In my opinion Sarin got a major nerf in her rework.

  I will now endever to explain why I feel this way buy compering her to her old low duration self as well as to other reworked/new frames.

  Afterwords I'll go over her abilities and give some suggestions for possible buffs.

 

  A) Comparison:

     1) To old Sarin: While not the best end game (+40m T4 S) frame out there Sarin's Miasma did do app 13000 Corosive damage in a significant aoe for about 100 energy (depending on build). While not the most fun way to play this game (personally I hated it) the power of this build is without question having Miasma damage, decent CC, great range, and a very small prep time(get in, cast, gtfo). Now whilst while our current Sarin cam possibly out damage her predecessor, this is significantly harder to do. The prep time has been drastically increased (Lash, Spore, get in, Molt,Mele hit, Miasma, gtfo). The range has been drastically reduced since u need to have both debufs to do the full damage. And the cost is now insane 25+50+50+100=225.

    2)To other frames: Now here's the sad part. All the recent reworks(Excalibur, Frost, Valkyr, Mensa, Nyx, Ember) have turned the respective frames into endgame monsters capable of easily dispatching lvl 70+ Orokin enemies with ease while hardly getting damaged (if played well). The new frames (Atlas, Equinox, Chroma) Are also amazingly devastating in new and interesting ways, they make extended duration runs both easy and a lot of fun. Sad thing is even Mag and Volt are currently better than Sarin.

 

 

  B)Abilities:

    1)Spores: Currently this is the only ability that is on par with the rest of the frames, as it's basically Equinox's Rage with a different drawback.

    2)Molt: Sadly this ability in currently almost useless versus end game mobs, it dies in app 5s. A simple fix would be to give it the same scaling as Alas's Tectonics, and making Regenerative Molt a default part of this ability (The augment can be made to increase the healing amount or to also regenerate energy). Also if default regeneration seams to OP we could base the explosion damage on the new health of the molt.

    3)Toxic Lash :As of now this ability is a pain it needs to be made toggleble. Sadly even after it's made toggleble this ability is still lack luster as hell. Even with the block damage mitigation increase you can still be knock down, staggered and pulled. Now I see two ways of fixing this. First we could hive her cc immunity while the buff is active (just like Atlas's passive). Secondly we could simply allow the buff to affect ranged weapons

    4)Miasma: Wat can I say.... this ability is garbage now, but how do we fix it? I see two possibilities. First we could simply bring back the low duration build. While this would be a simple change, sadly negate the revamp completely since the other abilities become almost useless. I really hope this dose not happen. Secondly we could make Miasma's damage be finisher damage just like Ash's Blade Storm only with a corrosive prock in stead of slash.

 

 

 

  Well my dear teno these are my suggestions. If you have any other ideas please post them.

 

  

   Update:

 

  After sleeping on this problem I managed to realize something. People really love low duration Sarin and it's not our place to deny them that love (if you don't like press 4 to win then do not play press 4 to win) but other people want a more complex and interesting way to play her. So let's compromise, bring back low duration Sarin in all her previous glory but make the high duration one worth buy making her Miasma do finisher damage only if the target has both debuffs on.

 I think that will do it. What's your opinion?

 

I'd like this, actually.

 

Though it still doesn't address my eHP woes. >.<