Ember Prime Nerf Please. Specifically, World On Fire.

[YasaiTsume]

I think we are beating a dead horse at this point. 

Information and arguements are being recycled and vomited back out again and again at this rate.

[(PSN)Hayabusa_3-17]

No one said anything about weak or strong builds, and no one has said anything about end of mission results actually mattering.

 

The entire last couple pages have been about respectful and considerate gameplay.

 

Respectful and Considerate gameplay is relative.

 

A player limiting himself/herself may get annoyed when a person speed runs the level but at the same time a person speed running the level might also be annoyed at players intentionally slowing themselves and take a whole year to get to the extraction point when the objective is complete

 

When you join a public match the only mindset you should have is "I'm playing with random people. I have no control on what they may or may not do and that's ok"

[MagPrime]

I think we are beating a dead horse at this point.

Information and arguements are being recycled and vomited back out again and again at this rate.

We've stopped beating the horse and moved onto the cow.

[YasaiTsume]

We've stopped beating the horse and moved onto the cow.

I like my beef tender.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

I like my beef tender.

 

i like my beef salty

[zNightWolfz]

beef jerky anyone

[pumaferd]

No one should be required to make a private lobby just to enjoy the game.  If they can't ever go public, then there's something wrong with the game.

 

That's it, that's all.  It's not a matter of controlling other players or having the perfect run.  The game mechanics are flawed and it's removing fun for some players because it's making it easier for other players to just spam one ability and rush through the content, in a self-center, rude and inconsiderate manner.

 

First off, I want to make it clear that your response is to my response to a specific claim by DeMonkey in which I questioned his reasoning behind his statement.  Your view has different information which would need to be responded to on its own.  His view implied that there should never be a circumstance that results in a player not having fun in a public game.  Your statement implies that if they can never go public, then there's a problem.

 

The game mechanics are flawed and it's removing fun for some players because it's making it easier for other players to just spam one ability and rush through the content, in a self-center, rude and inconsiderate manner.

 

I'd agree with you absolutely if 100% of the time all players cannot play public.  But, since I am a player, and since I play public and the majority of the time I can enjoy myself playing the game, this cannot be true.

 

Let's break this down:

 - "The game mechanics are flawed" -- assertion without proof

 

 - "it's removing fun for some players" -- granted, but this is happening to all players at various times for various reasons.  If you have a magical solution to solve this, I'd suggest you start a game company.

 

 - "because it's making it easier for other players to just spam one ability and rush through the content, in a self-center[ed], rude, and inconsiderate manner" -- speculative.  You don't know what is bothering each individual person, and you don't know that they aren't the ones being inconsiderate or rude either.  Also, these situations are not homogeneous even for individual players -- there may be, and likely are, different circumstances each time.  You know what bothers you, and you know how you feel about it.  You may also know what other people have said if they've gone into that much detail about this or any issue (can you compare how many and how many warframe players there are?).  What proof do you have that the players that are doing what you are alleging are doing it for the reasons you have stated?  As mentioned in this thread, at least some people thought they were doing people a favor to get through what they perceive as a grind more quickly.  Will you accuse them of being selfish and inconsiderate for that?  Be careful about seeing your perception as reality, as that can be a very dangerous thing.

 

Now I'll make a claim: until you have proven that anything is against the intention of DE, it is not a game flaw you are reporting, it is a game change you are requesting -- a game change which impacts every other player, possibly in all circumstances, not just the ones that offend you personally depending on what it is.  Leave it to DE to classify a game change request as a game flaw please.

 

 

And I disagree that if my definition of fun infringes on yours, I'm the one that has to go to private lobbies and not the person with specialized builds.

You have a specific set up for specific situations - good on you. But that doesn't mean that since I don't play that way, I get pushed out of public play because it's inconvenient for you to be a respectful teammate.

 

I agree that you should not have to go private either.  Just as he should not lose out, neither should you.  Do you have any recommendations to make sure neither of you have to play private and both of you can enjoy how you prefer to play in public?

 

 

No ones mad that you put time and effort into making a decent build - other players are mad that you're coming into the public matches and ruining their fun by playing the way you want to play and not being considerate about how they want to play.

 

If you're capable of face rolling content, why are you bothering with public matches?  Honestly the only reason I can see is some kind of epeen or just massive disrespect for others for enjoyment. 

 

Looks like your recommendation for rawr1254 is to stay out of public matches or play by your sanctioned playstyle for Ember...  That's unfortunate.  I thought we were getting somewhere, but your response has such an astonishingly high level of hypocrisy in the same sentence that I'm concerned you may not even realize it.

 

He can play in public matches because he can play in public matches.  Your speculation here could have been stated with a little more tact and with more openendedness especially since some of the Ember players have already given you their intentions.  Remember, you have no idea what other players are thinking, feeling, and intending unless they've said so, so it is just speculation.  I haven't seen any Ember respond and say that's why they do it.  I've seen them say it's to speedrun or to reduce grind for everyone, which actually seems like they are trying to help other players.  This seems like a slightly obscured insult towards Ember players with contradictory reasons provided by the actual players already present in the thread.

 

Also, as a tip: don't forget, this game has chat: you can say you feel it's rude and inconsiderate.  Start a dialog and try to resolve that issue.  Amazingly, not all people are trolls.

 

 

You're being rude and inconsiderate of your team and you're refusing to acknowledge that it might be a problem for the people you're forcing your play style on.

 

Your playstyle is to go into public matches, flip the bird to anyone else on the team and do your own thing.  

 

So what evidence are you providing that shows that is both what he is doing and what his intention is?  Or did you mean to say that "I see your playstyle as offensive, as if you are flipping the bird to the team and doing whatever you like."  See how big a difference that is?  Your perspective, vs his perspective, vs reality.

 

 

The game itself is flawed and needs to be improved - heavens yes.  But now you're using that to justify being one of the most complained about player types.

 

We agree!  In my opinion, there are things that could be changed/added/reworked in this game, some that specifically address some of the topics in this thread.  But I can almost guarantee you that at least some people will view any of those changes as major detriments and will hurt their enjoyment of the game.  I won't claim I have the "right" answers or that my suggestions are somehow more valid than anyone elses; I certainly won't try to badger them into conformance with statements like the one above.

 

 

How you play - is fun to you.  I'm not telling you to play any differently.  What I am saying is that how you play is causing problems for other players.

 

Again, it looks like you are trying to shame him into conforming, if not directly telling him how to play, by judging him and all other players that play in a playstyle you deem inconsiderate and rude.  Tell me, how do you know your playstyle has never been a problem for other players?  How do you know other players don't think your playstyle is inconsiderate and rude?  If they do, would you change your playstyle?

 

I would change your last sentence here to:

What I am saying is that how everyone plays causes problems for other players at some point.

 

Now that is a statement I can agree with and doesn't single out types of players that don't agree with you.

 

 

To rawr, and every other Ember player who is just playing the game as its made and to their playstyle with no intent to offend or annoy other players (and possibly with the complete opposite intention), you have just as much right to play it how you want as anyone else does.  Don't let someone tell you you are being rude and inconsiderate when you aren't intending any of that.  How in the world are you supposed to know how every single person in every single match wants you to play so that you don't appear rude to them, and what gives them the right to dictate that to you?  The answer is you can't, and they have no right to do that.

 

If people are passing judgement on you or trying to demean you (which can be veiled, so be astute), it's a good indication that their opinion probably isn't worth your time or concern.  Do standup for your desired gameplay and make sure your voice is heard, as it's usually the quiet people that are more willing to conform to not be a burden to others that get the short end of the stick.

 

I'm fully aware that there are viewpoints I am vehemently against, but as long as they are not imposing a self-righteous, judgemental viewpoint, I support everyone's right to voice their opinion without having to worry about being judged and badgered.  Rational, critical analysis is constructive, but just trying to shame people until they conform to some viewpoint is unacceptable.

[(XBOX)Master4733]

This thread is going downhill.....

And ember WoF isn't that op as far as damage(range maybe) but the damage isn't really a problem, I run ember for cc using its aguement it kills stuff easily because it knocks them down and repeatedly hit them, her WoF is almost perfect imo(like I said range may be op), but at any low level mission it will kill everything easily but that's almost every ability, you could mod and forma a lato and it would kill everything but it's considered weak. Also if somone is using a WoF ember have you ever asked them not to do it and gave your reasoning, we are all warframe players(I hope) And most players arnt trolls and hateful

[alergiclaprosti]

are you people this stupid?!

 

For almost 3 years Ember was S#&$. The moment it can deal some damage, not too much, you call for nerfs!?

 

People like you are the reason Saryn was nerfed. Go play your new Saryn, and have fun. 

 

Stop ruining the game experience for other people. If you don't like speed runners in your game, PLAY THE F*** SOLO!

[NKDG]

Again who cares about the stupid mission rewards. Especially when your teamwork means one persons frame nuking everything into unfunness. (not a word, I know).

I am talking about extreme cases here, but I do actually not roll my WoF that much because of the boredom. So, unless the mission really calls for it, yeah nerf yourself. Or, do something, anything to keep it interesting. Especially, consider being considerate of how others play. I can't even get my brother to play this game anymore because he has no investment in the game. Because all to often, while he is trying to play others are stream rolling the level. He could go solo, but that is backwards, he shouldn't have to be the to do that.

News flash: the reason you're on a mission is usually for "stupid mission rewards" how long has it been since you've played, or when did that anvil hit your head and make you lose half your memory?

[NKDG]

This thread is going downhill.....

And ember WoF isn't that op as far as damage(range maybe) but the damage isn't really a problem, I run ember for cc using its aguement it kills stuff easily because it knocks them down and repeatedly hit them, her WoF is almost perfect imo(like I said range may be op), but at any low level mission it will kill everything easily but that's almost every ability, you could mod and forma a lato and it would kill everything but it's considered weak. Also if somone is using a WoF ember have you ever asked them not to do it and gave your reasoning, we are all warframe players(I hope) And most players arnt trolls and hateful

No! Go away! The logic is hurting our brainssssszzzz!!

[NKDG]

This isn't farmer simulator.

But it is

[kleerr2]

I think the main problem here is being ''The best!''. Seems some people need to be the best in order to have fun, but you don't really need to have all the kills or all the loot etc. to have your fun, or do your own thing. That along with the seeming urge to make WOF unable to 1 hit even low lvl mobs.

Honestly... i think if any of Ember's abilities needs rework, or rather tweaks, its Fire Blast.

[(PSN)Bowjangelz]

TLDR of the last 10 pages ihmo

 

If you are op (frame/weapon/anything) compared to the level of content you are running, don't play public since there may be someone in the squad who gets offended by you steamrolling. Even if what you are running is not op in whatever you consider to be endgame, you are risking an outcry for nerfs, whether they be inspired by jealousy or boredom.

[(XBOX)Master4733]

I ran a draco about an hour ago for a test and leveling stuff, I took a Excal built for tanking, on my teen was moderate slowva(almost no movement difference) a ev trinity and WoF ember, my only maxed weapon was my Telos akbolto, in the end I did 44% of damage with my pistols and occasional eb for coverage when reviving, the ember came in second for damage I had 100 more kills than them, she's not op

[(XBOX)lotus503]

I have a question for the Nerf callers, those specifically with over 1000 posts who by all accounts have been playing a good long while.

 

 

What are you doing in low level missions where you feel WOF is an issue? Most of you should have completed the Starmap a few dozen times by now, so why are you playing Jupiter and below?

[Latiac]

The problem i'm seeing is that the community is too 'nerf happy'

 

Nerf this, nerf that. ESPECIALLY nerf anything I don't like!

 

No. Nerfing is not the answer. Nerfing has destroyed many aspects of this game. Do we really want to make ember useless again? No.

 

Try having an ember run around at level 40+ enemies. Then tell me she is overpowered.

[Windy_Wind]

How about.....NO

[(XBOX)Skode]

The problem i'm seeing is that the community is too 'nerf happy'

 

Nerf this, nerf that. ESPECIALLY nerf anything I don't like!

 

No. Nerfing is not the answer. Nerfing has destroyed many aspects of this game. Do we really want to make ember useless again? No.

 

Try having an ember run around at level 40+ enemies. Then tell me she is overpowered.

^ this. People forget how terrible she was six or so months ago. Even after she and Nekros got tweaked she was still lacking, this recent buff has meant truly for the first time for non-MR purposes people are picking her... why? because shes OP? lol dont be daft, shes goon on earth but endless T4 runs? Nah, theyre playing her again because shes FUN! Tactical Potato did a video in response to people STILL saying shes worst frame in the game, this was AFTER the duration buff.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

are you people this stupid?!

 

For almost 3 years Ember was S#&$. The moment it can deal some damage, not too much, you call for nerfs!?

 

People like you are the reason Saryn was nerfed. Go play your new Saryn, and have fun. 

 

Stop ruining the game experience for other people. If you don't like speed runners in your game, PLAY THE F*** SOLO!

Ember's damage wasn't buffed, what was truly buffed was the energy efficiency which made it so WoF barely needs any energy to function, which is what makes it broken right now. It's also a press and forget ability, which really shouldn't happen for offensive abilities, if you want to kill anything there should be some effort involved. While she can't kill anything with WoF later on, her ridiculously high energy efficiency plus Firequake makes her rather ridiculous later, as she can lockdown enemies on the ground with minimal energy usage and no interaction at all (CC abilities still require you to slightly interact with the game, slightly at least).

Duration removal only increased energy efficiency over time, it didn't make her stronger, it just, coupled with the drain buff, made it so she barely needs energy to sustain WoF. That only made it more obvious the problems with other toggle ultimates as some of them always had drain issues, which now seem a lot worse since a passive ability with very little drawbacks gets a minimal cost.

Well, I actually like the new Saryn better than the old, so by your logic, older Saryn players were ruining the game experience for me, therefore they should go play solo. See, this is a flawed logic, as changes always lead to something being lost, but something else being gained as well, that's why it's called changes. Saryn wasn't nerfed, she was reworked, which means that there was changes, so older playstyles aren't as viable anymore, while older playstyles that weren't viable at all got immensely buffed.

Sure, she stopped being a frontline nuke and went to being a front~mid line team support that has a weaker nuke (with minor CC) and can still be fully be front line offensive in low~mid levels, but that only meant that she's not just good for 40 levels, and that she actually brings something to the party at high levels (which she could do before the rework but it was harder to accomplish without all the QOL changes, but I've been on 1 hour long survival runs where the nuke didn't matter at all and her 1 was what made it so my team of randoms got to last that long, she was terrible at anything that scaled, now she actually brings something without a metric ton of effort to just make the first ability work).

[rawr1254]

-snip-

I have a friend :D

 

[FrostSpecter]

And I disagree that if my definition of fun infringes on yours, I'm the one that has to go to private lobbies and not the person with specialized builds.

You have a specific set up for specific situations - good on you. But that doesn't mean that since I don't play that way, I get pushed out of public play because it's inconvenient for you to be a respectful teammate.

 

Actually, you both need to either shut up or play in private lobbies.

 

As mean as that sounds, it's the truth. You play in public? You're gonna get people who do things differently than you do/want/like/dislike. You play in private, you get a guaranteed match to yourself/+your friends. DE has made a way for you to have your fun, your way. It's really not hard - it's called 'Friends Only'. Or 'Solo'. Also, there's a 'Recruiting' tab in chat. You wanna talk about being 'respectful'? Respectfully ask them to change or leave. If they will not, reform your group. It. Is. Not. Hard.

 

Ember is finally a decent frame. Nerf her? No. Leave her as-is. If you invite me to a game, or I join your game, and I have Ember, you can ask me to change or leave. I will do so. Got no problems doing that; if that's not what you like, not a problem. I can go play with a friend or by myself. Heck, me, my wife, and a couple friends can all grab our Ember Primes and just ROFLSTOMP an Infested mission, just for the heck of it. Why? Because it's fun. Don't go asking for nerfs on frames simply because you don't like them when you have a very easy way of avoiding them.

 

Don't mean to rant here, but this idea is, to be frank, stupid. The options are available to you. Host a private match? Easy. Recruit people for no-Ember run? Easy. Just as easy as it is for me to play in private.

 

You don't see me calling for nerfs on every frame that out-kills me. Most of the time I play as Frost Prime and help people with defense. I can end up 1st or 2nd in kills, but usually I'm only 2nd, and sometimes 3rd. Well, it's a defensive frame. I would expect that. Maybe there are people with 'madd skillz bruh' who have better stuff than me and can out-kill everyone as Frost Prime. Good for them! But I'm not going to scream NERF ALL THE MESAS NOVAS AND EMBERS because I don't out-kill the CC damage frames. I'm going to realize I'm playing team support, and I'm going to shut up. And team support.

 

TL;DR - you have many options, and the freedom to choose and do as you will. This also means other people should have the same freedom. A ridiculously-awful nerf like what the OP is suggesting will once again send Ember to the dust bin of history, and remove that freedom to choose from everyone who would play her. Just leave her alone. She's fine.

Edited November 23, 2015 by FrostSpecter

[Oriviagene]

Suuuuuure...but bring back overheat :p

No overheat no complaints from OP

[(XBOX)lotus503]

Ember's damage wasn't buffed, what was truly buffed was the energy efficiency which made it so WoF barely needs any energy to function, which is what makes it broken right now. It's also a press and forget ability, which really shouldn't happen for offensive abilities, if you want to kill anything there should be some effort involved. While she can't kill anything with WoF later on, her ridiculously high energy efficiency plus Firequake makes her rather ridiculous later, as she can lockdown enemies on the ground with minimal energy usage and no interaction at all (CC abilities still require you to slightly interact with the game, slightly at least).

Duration removal only increased energy efficiency over time, it didn't make her stronger, it just, coupled with the drain buff, made it so she barely needs energy to sustain WoF. That only made it more obvious the problems with other toggle ultimates as some of them always had drain issues, which now seem a lot worse since a passive ability with very little drawbacks gets a minimal cost.

Well, I actually like the new Saryn better than the old, so by your logic, older Saryn players were ruining the game experience for me, therefore they should go play solo. See, this is a flawed logic, as changes always lead to something being lost, but something else being gained as well, that's why it's called changes. Saryn wasn't nerfed, she was reworked, which means that there was changes, so older playstyles aren't as viable anymore, while older playstyles that weren't viable at all got immensely buffed.

Sure, she stopped being a frontline nuke and went to being a front~mid line team support that has a weaker nuke (with minor CC) and can still be fully be front line offensive in low~mid levels, but that only meant that she's not just good for 40 levels, and that she actually brings something to the party at high levels (which she could do before the rework but it was harder to accomplish without all the QOL changes, but I've been on 1 hour long survival runs where the nuke didn't matter at all and her 1 was what made it so my team of randoms got to last that long, she was terrible at anything that scaled, now she actually brings something without a metric ton of effort to just make the first ability work).

 

The issue I have with this logic is that there are several frames where I can press a button and clear low levels with ease. With my Loki I can clear many mission types without engaging the enemy at all, IF THAT'S HOW I CHOOSE TO PLAY. 

 

And really this is what were talking about, we have a group of people that want to dictate how other people play & what is acceptable in PUGS. The flaw with this approach is that these people have the option to play how they want with people they want, but that's not good enough, they want to force you to play how they want you to play, otherwise its not fun for them.

 

Thats why I have said, Warframe needs two modes

 

1. The way it is now

2. A mode where all frames are equal so nobody gets their feelings hurt.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

The issue I have with this logic is that there are several frames where I can press a button and clear low levels with ease. With my Loki I can clear many mission types without engaging the enemy at all, IF THAT'S HOW I CHOOSE TO PLAY. 

 

And really this is what were talking about, we have a group of people that want to dictate how other people play & what is acceptable in PUGS. The flaw with this approach is that these people have the option to play how they want with people they want, but that's not good enough, they want to force you to play how they want you to play, otherwise its not fun for them.

 

Thats why I have said, Warframe needs two modes

 

1. The way it is now

2. A mode where all frames are equal so nobody gets their feelings hurt.

But lower levels are an issue that goes beyond frames, as it's an issue by default in any game with progression but that lets you travel back.

Another issue is how low levels is just about anything at the starting point of the mission, even T4 enemies are at rather low levels and easily get cheesed down to nothing, the only difference is that in T4 enemies have a multiplier on their damage, which is only there because if DE scaled them up instead, it would bring up the scaling issue very early rather than just later on (which is not that we don't scale but how armor and HP scale in a bad way).

Though honestly, most people in this thread are going into the "play the way I want" road, there's barely any one being constructive, most are just focused in opposing the OP in any way possible without any argument or even understanding of the situation at hand, which isn't really something new, Ember always did what the OP describes, all the buff did was to make it so she can do it with much less effort now.

 

All that the Ember buff did was to switch the extremes. Before energy consumption was a problem in a negative way (drain is too high), now it's a problem in a "positive" way (drain is too low). And I mean the actual problem with the ability itself, not the overall problem with Ember and WoF.

 

This threads are nothing more than the same thing as the "buff Ember" threads, which didn't really understand what was WoF problems, and just blamed everything else instead. Duration wasn't her problem, if anything +5 seconds would make it a lot better, the energy consumption being too high couple with recasts was the issue. Now the drain is too low and there's no duration to force you to recast which would slightly increase the energy costs to balance it out a little, which would either force you to sustain higher costs for higher damage, or to get higher long term efficiency and less damage.

What DE did was to come up with an alternative way that if slightly changed could improve toggle abilities that used duration, but instead they tried to make it so it was a disadvantage if you dropped Duration too low, which then only puts some frames into disadvantage, frames that were already in the borderline disadvantage point and that were only holding on because they could use all abilities without major issues, and Ember wasn't one of them (it was mostly just Banshee). The whole Toggle and duration change was all based on how duration in reality only increases long term efficiency in many abilities, including toggles, so if they could make low duration act negatively on toggles it would remove the recast limitation as it would put the recast negative effect into the energy consumption calculation, but that only works in theory, because in practice, frames like Ember end up avoiding that negative effect altogether and only benefited from the change that was supposed to give a benefit and a disadvantage as well, by just not getting full STR, which is only like, 5 levels worth anyway, so a lower damage number leads to more energy to use with Accelerant since WoF won't need much anyway, and compared with before, WoF energy cost is so low, that now she seems stronger, as you can drop duration to very low numbers and it will still cost less than before. The idea was good, but simply doesn't work well for offensive abilities.

The main difference is that before she was only good for speed runs, now you can see people AFK in Draco (I rarely go there and already saw a bunch of them which is sad) with her since she will take several minutes to run out of energy.

This whole thread is nothing but the repercussion of a badly executed buff and mechanics change, that while it's seen as good, even good can do harm, and in this case, it brings up all the bad parts of the game even more accentuated than before.

IMO, WoF does need a nerf, but not the damage, energy costs is the issue. Though I'd take that nerf as a placeholder, I'd rather see the ability go and get replaced with something else, much like how other frames are being changed into "be active and be rewarded".