How to Balance Shadow Step But Keep it Interesting

[phoenix1992]

7 minutes ago, blaes said:

i had forgotten about those. basically yes, but without the delay to enter invisibility they suffer. as soon as you get a crit melee hit, you go invisible until the start of your next offensive action.

Can't argue that this will sufice the "Nerf hunger". But.
It won't change much. It is ridiculously easy to hit an crit those days, and Shadowstep will become frustrating to use - you are chaining attack after attack and you will gain the invisibility only when you stop. In the mean time - epileptic flash dance.  I would flat out prefer Shadowstep not being 10 seconds, or not being triggered on any crit. Something like "50% chance to become invisible on critical strike with melee". This way it will even up with Arcane Fury any way.
And while it sounds as a noble idea, it won't change the fact that this is unneeded clipping.  Focus should be end game content, yet end game people want it nerfed. While totally ignoring how strong arcanes are. Instead of progressing, we are pushing down one of the only thing that does not require praising the Random Drop Gods. No seriously - what other system in game, provides you buffs without the "random" factor in it? 
In the end I would like to see all focuses with an workable and smooth status, not only 4/6 of them having use.

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 hours ago, phoenix1992 said:

I almost forgot. The builds...
Disclaimer : OP thinks that only critical melee can compete with fire arms. I am here shoving in his face why it this is not the case. Secret: multiply the damage by "n" number of mobs around me in any given time. 
Orthos prime PvE build up to 60 level mobs (it can go further, but it starts to drag) : 
http://goo.gl/SgbL7u 
I was actually surprised, that I can count in the berserker effect. Pleasantly surprised. In a nutshell this is "back you damned heap of mobs". Optimaly the point is to strike fast and strike all together - with "fire rate" of 2.7 per second (this is excluding Strike), and hitting up to 15 mobs (best case) in one combo swipe... Yeah I can deal with triggering critical, status effects and overall survive. What I can't see to input are the arcanes (fury and strike, because I take my melee seriously) and the Steel Charge aura. If someone can do the math - please.
Virtually the same build on Galatine : 
http://goo.gl/xDu0mO
Wow. This sword makes me love it even more.
Add to the fact, that I can also whip out War, but I have event mods and Primed mods on it. You will not enjoy the overkill.

I was going to avoid direct responses until things calmed down a bit, but you are blatantly misinterpreting what I have said.

I never said that melee was not viable at all without crit builds. I said that melee could not compete with firearms in terms of raw DPS... which you have shown to be true with the builds you have used as examples. A non-crit Lex Prime deals 20k+ damage per second. Essentially all of my firearm builds use punch-through, so you don't even have melee range multihit going for you to even the playing ground. 

BR+BC Shadow Debt combo makes closing that actual gap possible, which is why I've said that those mods should not be nerfed for the time being. They only make our melee more similar to our firearms; it's not a big deal. 

[phoenix1992]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I was going to avoid direct responses until things calmed down a bit, but you are blatantly misinterpreting what I have said.

I never said that melee was not viable at all without crit builds. I said that melee could not compete with firearms in terms of raw DPS... which you have shown to be true with the builds you have used as examples. A non-crit Lex Prime deals 20k+ damage per second. Essentially all of my firearm builds use punch-through, so you don't even have melee range multihit going for you to even the playing ground. 

BR+BC Shadow Debt combo makes closing that actual gap possible, which is why I've said that those mods should not be nerfed for the time being. They only make our melee more similar to our firearms; it's not a big deal. 

I did promise to show you that if it comes down to base damage, critical is not higher than non critical. And while lex can do "20k+ DPS per second" to maybe 2-3 mobs,  this is not the same as the multi hit.
Let me try to explain this in even smaller bits.
You have weapon with 10% critical. You do average 2-3 hits on mob per second. This is not an good way to trigger Shadowstep.
You have weapon with 5% critical. You do average 15 hits on mobs per second. This is much more likely to trigger Shadowstep. 
The point if triggering Shadowstep is not deathblow. It is simple hit with critical. My argue with you came to the fact, that I and many other players never did have to rely on two specific "combo counter mods": in order to get our Shadowstep to work.

Another point you are not understanding 

 

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I never said that melee was not viable at all without crit builds. I said that melee could not compete with firearms in terms of raw DPS

I really "love" this builder since it does not show up couple of things.
a) Punch trough.
b) Reach
c) Reload time
d) How many times you will miss
e) Ammo issues.
f) Arcanes 
g) Effect of the status effect (hur durr stupid puns)
h) How will this effect the enemy, and for how long.

Again simple down - my non crit hek has over 100k burst DPS (http://goo.gl/M5r7vL). The builder states that I can also sustain 48k. 
This is not true. I can inta slay up to 20-30 mobs with an simple burst. After that - cross my fingers, and hope nothing is behind me. Fine - i will get my secondary out and empty that clip too.  But... This is not efficient. A much more simple strategy would be to use an melee, that can already dispatch any mob up to level "n" and keep with it. No reloading, no ammo, more status effects per second, more rag dolls per second (for some weapons and stances). The game is not math. We are in 3D environment with too many variables.  You are not an sentry gun. 

And in the end it all boils down to... simple greed? Naramon does what it does for a long time. People started whining against it, only when new players stepped up to the game and are also able to use it.  And as stated many times, by many peoples it is not "instacure" for all issues in the game. It is not also so easy to obtain by any casual player. For the same time you need to reach it, you can polish any type of equipment to an "end game level". Why are you hellbent on removing that?

PS: I have not used shadowstep in weeks. I do not need to. It is just an egocentric tool, that does not improve my team play and will not resolve any real survival situations. Invisible or not, the mobs with AoE attacks and the Bursa units will get you.

Edited March 8, 2016 by phoenix1992

[crackbeard]

The way i feel about it is i love it but it's definitely OP. Whatever they do they should keep it so it turns you invisible, but maybe only when you do a charge attack or a channeled charge attack or keep it crit and give it a cooldown or something. It could even be on melee finishers like arcane trickery.

[vazerd68]

the introduction of arcane trickery allowed for very powerful high uptime invisibility builds on warframes without invisibility abilities

shadow step makes such powerful builds irrevellant, to the point I had forgotten that I was using this arcane

your suggestion is interresting, I would add a threat level reduction to it

+1

[ashrah]

naramon is well made its not op now are meele wepons viable as playstyle...!  zenurik need nerf infinity energy with maxed u dont need any efficancy mod

[DiabolusUrsus]

I think the key disconnect here is that we all have different perspectives on what qualifies as 'overpowered.' We can argue in circles about it for as long as we like, but at the end of the day some of us feel like unlimited access to something that prevents enemies from fighting back is OP, while others disagree.

The most important thing to me, though, is that the meta is very niche in terms of aesthetics at the moment. In order to be effective, you rely on one of three things:

1. Abilities that render you invisible.
2. Abilities that stop enemies from attacking (Radial Blind, Prism, etc.)
3. Abilities that stop enemies from moving entirely (Bastille, Avalanche, etc.) 

There's no in-between, and to me that is exceedingly boring. 

That's why I would like to see modifications to enemy accuracy and detection added into the mix; it would add some much-needed variety to an otherwise extremely bland meta, and it might even open up some options for expansion in new directions with customization in general. 

This is intended as a facilitation of change, not vindictive punishment. 

[Dragazer]

No, keep shadow step the way it is. Melee is already in a S#&$ hole as is. Guns outdamage and outrange melees by far.

With the reintroduction of shock eximus draining ALL of you energy in melee range, melee needs all the help it can get right now.

Your suggested change would literally turn the passive into the most useless focus passive in the game for 2 reasons:

1: Enemy accuracy scales with level, and we all know how out of hand that gets in the lvl 100s

2: Detection range is pretty much useless considering the only time you really have a chance to activate the passive are on endless missions where all enemies are already alerted.

Focus is advertised as powerful endgame abilities that require massive grind so the benefits should be great for the amount of work you put into it.

As it currently stands your suggessted changes would be terrible  

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by Dragazer

[DiabolusUrsus]

The hyperbole is real. I think it's safe to say that while the modified Shadow Step would start to fall off in effectiveness a bit at higher levels (that's kind of the point; we're not supposed to scale infinitely...) it would still be far from the most useless Focus passive. It's not like I'm arguing for the simultaneous removal of Unairu and Madurai. 

Shock Eximi need to be changed, not compensated for. 

Enemy accuracy scales? Remember that we're not supposed to be balanced against level 100+.

Detection range would be fairly useful when combined with the new minimap changes and any sort of enemy detection modification if you wanted to do stealth missions.

If Endless missions are the only missions where Focus abilities can be brought to bear... don't you think that calls more for an adjustment of Focus and how long it takes to put into effect?

As I've said before... Grind does not justify imbalance. 

[RealPandemonium]

On 3/8/2016 at 6:03 AM, phoenix1992 said:

Iease, do not use all rounder frames. They tend to fail miserably at certain point.\

This is extremely toxic feedback that promotes game exploitation and indulging the CC/Immunity bandaid meta.  Variety is the greatest asset this game has and if anything the exploitable  "specialized" frames need to be normalized for gameplay to matter.

On 3/8/2016 at 6:22 AM, DJ_Vauban said:

How about instead of nerfing everything, we bring the other focus trees up to par? I used to use Unairu before switching over to Naramon, there is like nothing in that tree that is remotely as powerful as shadow step, now I actually feel rewarded for starting over in Naramon since I actually got something of value now <w< I have always wanted something that helps me be less squishy when I go melee only without having to use an easymode frame, looking at you Valkyr and Loki..

I don't really know about the other trees but it's always shadow step that I hear about, so yeah...buff the other trees instead of nerfing shadow step <w<

While it's true that a lot of the trees are unpolished and contain some highly questionable effects/passives, buffiing everything to the Naramon/Madurai level would also just create another "can I cheese everything in the game, skipping all gameplay" gear check of the kind that this game definitely doesn't need more of.  DE needs to revise these trees with player input, but that isn't exactly happening since people typically request powercreep instead of interesting and rewarding gameplay.  

[phoenix1992]

Just now, RealPandemonium said:

his is extremely toxic feedback that promotes game exploitation and indulging the CC/Immunity bandaid meta.  Variety is the greatest asset this game has and if anything the exploitable  "specialized" frames need to be normalized for gameplay to matter.

I am sorry mister all rounder, I do not see any good enough reason to use Hydro in high level spy mission. There is an reason we are encourage to catch all frames and one of the more famous quotes is "the proper tool for the proper job". Do not say meta, when I am talking about something that is vastly different. If you want to do defense type of mission (excavation is good example) on a certain level without frames that utilize any "protect that objective" abilities (Frost, Nova, Atlas, Vauban, Nyx, Limbo, Ember, Mirage, Banshee and so on) , well call me toxic all you want and good luck with the grinding aspect of the game.

[AM-Bunny]

The main thing that I dislike about Shadow Step is how it only functions for niche playstyles. In my opinion, since Focus applies to all your Warframes, the effects should be general enough to be beneficial regardless of loadout or playstyle.

However, Shadow Step only functions with melee weapons - which is already a small category of playstyles - and only functions with the further exclusive crit-based melee weapons. This means to really take advantage of it, your limited to a relatively small pool of weapons, which is just bad design in my opinion.

Additionally, when you do try to take full advantage of the effect by using a crit-based melee, it's far too powerful. I've gone an hour in T4 Survival using an unranked Warframe with this. That's not an exploit - it's not some aberrant combination of powers that work together in a way the devs didn't expect... it's just trying to get a use out of the power!

So basically, Shadow Step is an all-or-nothing design. Either it gives you no benefit, or it gives you way too much of one. Which - as I said earlier - is just bad design. I would prefer if it got completely changed into something else, to be honest.

[DJ_Vauban]

15 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

-snip-

Well I personally don't mind the fact that it's only/mostly for a niche playstyle because since melee 2.0 I have been running mostly melee only anyway, and a "buff" like this was kind of needed to give me a chance with a melee weapon in high level missions because either, I died before I can reach the enemy since blocking doesn't do anything at high levels or I do basically no damage anymore which forces me to use primary or secondary weapons.

To me, it kind of sounds more like giving players more options to play with instead of less to play the way they want. Sure, at first glance shadow step is really powerful, but that's balanced out by the fact that you have to use your melee weapon more than your primary/secondary and have to run around constantly, depending on the gametype and frame you use, this may or may not benefit the player or the team owo

Long story short, don't nerf shadow step since this will only force players to leave their melee weapon at home once more and to also return to the "meta" <w<

And another thought which came to mind, if we think about shadow step builds as a class, has there ever been a melee class in a game which was not really powerful IN close combat? That's how I see it basically:

Close combat = higher mobility, higher damage output in close combat compared to ranged weapons, higher risk to die

Ranged combat= wider field of view, enemies can be killed before they get even close, lesser chance of dying, less damage output

Basically, the higher the risk, the higher your damage output, at least that's how I think it should be.

Edited March 9, 2016 by DJ_Vauban

[DiabolusUrsus]

27 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

The main thing that I dislike about Shadow Step is how it only functions for niche playstyles. In my opinion, since Focus applies to all your Warframes, the effects should be general enough to be beneficial regardless of loadout or playstyle.

However, Shadow Step only functions with melee weapons - which is already a small category of playstyles - and only functions with the further exclusive crit-based melee weapons. This means to really take advantage of it, your limited to a relatively small pool of weapons, which is just bad design in my opinion.

Additionally, when you do try to take full advantage of the effect by using a crit-based melee, it's far too powerful. I've gone an hour in T4 Survival using an unranked Warframe with this. That's not an exploit - it's not some aberrant combination of powers that work together in a way the devs didn't expect... it's just trying to get a use out of the power!

So basically, Shadow Step is an all-or-nothing design. Either it gives you no benefit, or it gives you way too much of one. Which - as I said earlier - is just bad design. I would prefer if it got completely changed into something else, to be honest.

I would not mind this either. 

I would prefer it if every Focus tree had passive options for firearms/abilities/melee so that people could pick and choose from their favorites while enjoying the stylized buffs attributed to each school's theme. 

[phoenix1992]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I would not mind this either. 

I would prefer it if every Focus tree had passive options for firearms/abilities/melee so that people could pick and choose from their favorites while enjoying the stylized buffs attributed to each school's theme. 

Now this sounds sweet. Many firearms need love.
PS: But not like shadowstep. You say it is overpowered now... but there was an bug that triggered it with riffles. Oh boy, now that was mega broken.

Edited March 9, 2016 by phoenix1992

[Dragazer]

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The hyperbole is real. I think it's safe to say that while the modified Shadow Step would start to fall off in effectiveness a bit at higher levels (that's kind of the point; we're not supposed to scale infinitely...) it would still be far from the most useless Focus passive. It's not like I'm arguing for the simultaneous removal of Unairu and Madurai. 

Shock Eximi need to be changed, not compensated for. 

Enemy accuracy scales? Remember that we're not supposed to be balanced against level 100+.

Detection range would be fairly useful when combined with the new minimap changes and any sort of enemy detection modification if you wanted to do stealth missions.

If Endless missions are the only missions where Focus abilities can be brought to bear... don't you think that calls more for an adjustment of Focus and how long it takes to put into effect?

As I've said before... Grind does not justify imbalance. 

Not balanced for level 100s?

Please just stop right there. It looks like someone hasn't been playing the high level sorties.

Yeah, yeah, definitely not level 100.

Yet zenurik restores the same amount of energy no matter the enemy level

Yet Madurai Provides the same damage bonus no matter the enemy level

Yet Vazarin revives and shields allies effectively regardless of enemy levels

Grind doesn't justify imba? 

Yeah tell that to any mmo developer. 

Its common sense that you should be rewarded more for the amount of work you put in. Its called progression

And no that aspect is fine as it is. If you completed the mission before your focus is off CD than you never needed it anyways to begin with for that mission

There's no hyperbole, your suggested change will literally make it the most useless focus passive. 

There's no point in using it in low levels due to how fast and easy it is to finish missions and high levels its useless anyways due to enemy scaling.

Nobody wants to invest a large chunk of their time into something that barely makes a difference.

Like I said before Focus is meant to be an end game system. 

The huge grind and equally huge benefits are intended, it gives us something to work towards.

Maybe instead of crying for unneeded nerfs, we can fix other things such as Unairu being weaker when compared to the other focus trees.

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by Dragazer

[AKKILLA]

27 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

 

Like I said before Focus is meant to be an end game system. 

The huge grind and equally huge benefits are intended, it gives us something to work towards.

Maybe instead of crying for unneeded nerfs, we can fix other things such as Unairu being weaker when compared to the other focus trees.

 

PREEEEAAAACH!!!

Shadow Step is great and it doesnt scale at all it doesnt even effect damage only Crit Chance is what activates Shadow Step. Unless if I missed out the fact that crit chance scales with enemy levels as well?

I mean its simple all you do is equip the Highest Crit Chance Melee You have (Tekko 43%Crit Chance) plus Berserker, and if You have Deadly Intent Maxed as well even better! Its a reward ofcoarse for what we paid and worked for. Now I agree the other schools need major buffs to stand out, wouldnt be fair to ruin more stuff to keep everything at a low level. Too many Nerfs just sets the game back from Progress.

Which is what we need Progress

[-dicht.Amducias-]

16 hours ago, ashrah said:

zenurik need nerf infinity energy with maxed u dont need any efficancy mod

Thats wrong in so many ways

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Naramon is a gimmick. Outside of survival it's useless except affinity bonus. Already USELESS. Someone wants to make it complete trash, useless everywhere?  Buff unairu instead. 

And those mods you named are not on consoles. Nerf mods maybe? 

 

Because if I don't wanna be gimmicky and want max efficiency - naramon is already trash. Zenurik plus ash with arcane trickery, or loki. Much better for survival. You are suggesting nerfing an already meh focus to trash level wtf are you thinking? 

As I said buff unairu instead. It literally has no purpose, gimmick or otherwise. 

[RealPandemonium]

7 hours ago, phoenix1992 said:

I am sorry mister all rounder, I do not see any good enough reason to use Hydro in high level spy mission.

You can use pretty much anything in spy missions (although a decently-powered melee weapon for stealth kills is helpful in some vaults.

6 hours ago, Dragazer said:

Not balanced for level 100s?

Please just stop right there. It looks like someone hasn't been playing the high level sorties.

picture

Yeah, yeah, definitely not level 100.

Grind doesn't justify imba? 

Yeah tell that to any mmo developer. 

Its common sense that you should be rewarded more for the amount of work you put in. Its called progression

Nobody wants to invest a large chunk of their time into something that barely makes a difference.

Like I said before Focus is meant to be an end game system. 

The huge grind and equally huge benefits are intended, it gives us something to work towards.

 

 

Level 100 content is typically abused with permaCC, overtuned weapons, and exploitative power combos.  It's not really "gameplay" at that point.

Progression in this game is kind of false since 90% of it happens once (you get core mods) and the rest of the perceived grind is just to obtain the cherries for the top of the game-trivialization cake.

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Kontrollo]

Well, Shadow Step in its current form is OP at max rank, no doubt about that. It was OP even before the Shadow Debt mods, but they've clearly made it even better.

Now your suggestion here would definitely solve the part of the ability that is broken, so yeah why not. But I wonder, why not just reduce the time or implement one of the other, simpler suggestions that were made in the big thread?

 

[ClinkzEastwood]

No. 

I have the intelligent of a toddle with the react speed or a snail. Anything that doesn't give me complete invulnerability is too hard for me.

[ClinkzEastwood]

8 hours ago, Dragazer said:

Not balanced for level 100s?

Please just stop right there. It looks like someone hasn't been playing the high level sorties.

Yeah, yeah, definitely not level 100.

Yet zenurik restores the same amount of energy no matter the enemy level

Yet Madurai Provides the same damage bonus no matter the enemy level

Yet Vazarin revives and shields allies effectively regardless of enemy levels

Grind doesn't justify imba? 

Yeah tell that to any mmo developer. 

Its common sense that you should be rewarded more for the amount of work you put in. Its called progression

And no that aspect is fine as it is. If you completed the mission before your focus is off CD than you never needed it anyways to begin with for that mission

There's no hyperbole, your suggested change will literally make it the most useless focus passive. 

There's no point in using it in low levels due to how fast and easy it is to finish missions and high levels its useless anyways due to enemy scaling.

Nobody wants to invest a large chunk of their time into something that barely makes a difference.

Like I said before Focus is meant to be an end game system. 

The huge grind and equally huge benefits are intended, it gives us something to work towards.

Maybe instead of crying for unneeded nerfs, we can fix other things such as Unairu being weaker when compared to the other focus trees.

 

He said 100+, I don't see any number above 100 in the screenshot you provided.

And I did sortie long before even farming for focus.

[AKKILLA]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

You are suggesting nerfing an already meh focus to trash level wtf are you thinking? 

As I said buff unairu instead. It literally has no purpose, gimmick or otherwise. 

I still Die in Shadow Step and Arcane Trickery too. 

That makes it OP? Or do as intended? Its a survival tool to  Cloak You, You still can take lethal damage and Die. Like Homie said Buff the weaker Schools up to par would be the right thing to do

[ShortCat]

17 hours ago, Dragazer said:

No, keep shadow step the way it is. Melee is already in a S#&amp;&#036; hole as is. Guns outdamage and outrange melees by far.

Melee is not in bad place, especially not ofter ShadowDept mods. If you look at melee separately, it is a well balaced mechanic with high risk high rewards. I wouldn't say it is perfect, as it certainly need some tweaks here and there. Now weapons on the other hand obliterate dozens of enemies with 1 click.

Of course it is harded to utilize melee playstyle with certain frames (like Mag), however there are a lot frames, which support this playstyle (like Wukong).

13 hours ago, Dragazer said:

Not balanced for level 100s?

Please just stop right there. It looks like someone hasn't been playing the high level sorties.

The game is not balaced for level 100. Sorties are there to provide challenge as endgame content. Whether they fulfill this role or not is another question. If the game would be balanced around Sorties, it would just be another gearcheck, but most certainly not endgame.