[Discussion] Do loot base skills cause toxicity?

[bejuizb]

Not always, but it definitely can get pretty toxic.

I personally hate running a farm Nekros. I build him with all 3 augments and some other supportive mods. With it, I have instant ranged revives, an ability that nullifies my reliance on energy and some extremely strong minions and defense. See the problem? Nekros builds that aren't desecrate focused, are considered niche in public games. I've lost count of how many times I was harassed for not running a Desecrate Nekros.

The issue with loot based abilities is that they are extremely one dimensional and do their job too well. Getting two drops instead of one automatically makes the ability 100% better than relying on pure RNG. And in a game with RNG that has some loathsome grindwalls, the mere chance of increasing drops twofold means those abilities become mandatory crutches, not tools as Scott pointed out. Warframe is entirely loot driven. Everything we do or collect is loot or loot related. I'd go as far as to say a lot of players enjoy the game because it's a giant lootfest with sci fi skins tacked on to it.

Think about it this way. If Warframe actually had some fun content under the grind, or more reliable drops, we wouldn't need loot powers in our toolbox. The powers exist to counter the main issue of grind. And for Scott to say that it isn't a problem or isn't toxic isn't that correct. Loot abilities serve the primary purpose of being a crutch to a large amount of players to alleviate grind. When these players are paired with those who don't care for much grind, you're bound to face some form of conflict. And that seems pretty toxic to me.

[Archwizard]

Original Question-er here.

In my experience, any time I play a Nekros, the minimum I encounter is exactly the kind of behavior Rebecca mentioned - people saying "If you're not using Desecrate, you're doing it wrong."  I have also encountered several extreme cases where people have shouted me down for not casting it enough, to the point where I avoid using Nekros in public matches anymore. That said...

2 hours ago, Lijka said:

The problem with loot frames is not "toxicity" but the fact that these frames are being categorised as loot only frames way too oftten.

... this may be more accurate to the point I was trying to make with that question.

I've seen people try to defend these behaviors by saying that "this is all that these frames have going for them", but with the main exception of Hydroid, that's not really true. There are more "meta powers" than just Desecrate and Pilfering Swarm - Prowl, Ore Gaze and Effigy are all equipped by frames who otherwise have no penalties toward their kits and have engaging playstyles outside of using these powers or augments. Nekros has a very strong alternative playstyle in building for Shadows of the Dead, due to its high scaling and the ability to build it simultaneously with Terrify.

What irks me about these kinds of discussions is that overall, it's not whether or not loot powers have a place in the game, it's how many places those loot powers already have and continue to receive. From what I've been informed, whenever a DC poll comes up to provide augments to Warframes, there's a following that's set to putting a looting augment on virtually every Warframe. For instance, when Atlas and Equinox both were polled to receive augments at the same time, Petrify and Pacify/Provoke both were put up with potential loot augments - and as evident, one succeeded.

At the same time, we have the original case of Desecrate. When Nekros' powers were announced, there was a universal outcry to see "Search the Dead" be replaced because it wasn't engaging and only barely fitting. Scott pushed it forward anyways saying "Try it, you'll like it", and in spite of all of the original complaints remaining true (moreso, as the RNG elements that lock players out of other actions was not originally mentioned), support for it instantly turned around because it was giving players more mods and resources.
With it, it opened the floodgates to tell everyone it's okay to want frame X to have the ability to make money out of thin air, as long as it's an incredibly painful playstyle to force upon someone else in your party - and then whenever this is pointed out, players calling for improvement are chewed out by those who have managed to make the rare Shadows build work, or those who say that loot powers are a mere luxury. Yet when you try to argue that the Desecrate could be changed, players arguing that only Desecrate is useful come crawling out of the woodwork, and "he'll never be called for in recruiting if you change that". (Because apparently, being called for in recruiting is all that matters, scrap all other frame developments and go home DE.)
Each extreme defeating calls for change, yet simultaneously highlighting exactly why he needs it.

The most frustrating aspect, however, is that there is absolutely an alternative to these kinds of abilities: Improving drops baseline (a solution I offered in the question on the devstream, which got skimmed over). If you consider the Vulpine Mask Fiasco just a few months back, it's a solution that players agree with and offer on their own, primarily because loot drop rates (even for staple items) are already obscenely low. If it comes at the cost of removing loot powers out of making them redundant, however, "no thanks".

What this tells me is that at best, players will always try to finagle a way to get more loot above all else (even at the expense of playing the game as anything more than a farming simulator), and at worst, the devs will force-feed more ways to get loot to us. It makes it very hard to trust the legitimacy of support for these types of abilities, when the argument in itself puts you neck-deep in what is visibly the self-interest and hypocrisy of players.

I want to put an end to the perceptions of "looter frames", since we all acknowledge the perceptions (if not the behaviors they provoke) are detrimental to the game. Yet even when we're all in agreement, it confuses me that nobody else wants to see change enacted.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Archwizard

[Necromanrius]

I haven't met any issue about loot based recently, though I do remember about Greedy Mag before the nerf, there were people who would complain if they saw a Mag who was not standing there and casting greedy pull all day, and the Lotus forbid that they didn't have the mod....

That said, I agree with what many said, it isn't so much toxic because of the looting system, there simply people who are convinced (rightly or not is another matter) they know best how to play a character rather than you, and will criticize everything you do until you fit their criteria. While advice is good to come by, nobody needs to have it shoved down their throat, and as long as they are not a liability to the mission, there's no reason to get upset

[Xekrin]

1 hour ago, Melos-mevim said:

certainly if you g to a pub usign a shield of shadows nekros instead of a desecrate nekros your going to most likely get fussed at because your not wasting oyur time mashign 3 every few seconds for the others

 

use a pilfering hydroid you get in arguments with other players about them killing enemies before the tentacles can grab them, their response "lol just use a nekros"

This is really my only problem with loot abilities, besides nekro each ability requires the enemies to be alive to function.  

• Atlas' Ore gaze requires petrify to be in full effect before killing.
• Hydroid requires the tentacles to holding the enemy as it dies
• Ivara's Prowl requires the longest and worst of all, depending on builds, 1 - 3 seconds to loot, and within 10m or less for each enemy.

Other than soloing, these strict demands prevent general usage, so its either solo play or a very organized team, something that isn't typically found in pugs.  The mind set of most players is kill quickly kill the most, they don't want to wait for you to do your thing even if it means a chance at rare mods/resources/whatever.

 

[Smilomaniac]

Specifically to Nekros? No more so than other builds not being optimized for a purpose.

Let's be real here, the reason people get upset is because some aren't running "optimal builds" for the specific purpose of getting maximum return for minimum effort. It's elitist behaviour that is compounded by the fact that this is a very grind-heavy game.

If I host a group for a specific goal and the people I get into my group haven't optimized for said goal, then I get annoyed - They're effectively wasting my time.
At that point I have two choices - I can take responsibility to act maturely and in a polite manner as to encourage optimized play for the purpose the group was formed for in the first place, or I can leave the group. Other people take the third option, which is to get angry and verbally attack them.

So I see a bottom line issue here, which is that time is precious and that a 1% drop rate is too harsh of a grind for some people. Unfortunately changing this has wide reaching consequences, affecting the market and plat-sales.
A better explanation of the game for new players might alleviate some of these things though.

[SolarDwagon]

I run a non-loot Nekros. My clan is probably more scared of my Nekros build than any other build in terms of the stupidity it can do.

The assumption that Nekros=Desecrate is not based on the capability of the frame, but the lack of imagination in builds. Everything is there to move away from PURE desecrate builds-in fact desecrate is a cornerstone of my build thanks to despoil/equilibrium/new Simaris mod synergy. But it's not for the loot generation. If all the extra loot got removed, which perhaps it should be, it wouldn't take away from the build at all as long as health orbs are still generated.

I don't think loot frames generate toxicity more than any other frame with a specialty- toxicity normally happens when someone had an unwritten expectation of a certain build based on a frame, rather than actually asking. That will happen no matter what you do to frames because it's to do with the players.

PS if anyone wants the actual build PM me.

[Archwizard]

7 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

Specifically to Nekros? No more so than other builds not being optimized for a purpose.

Let's be real here, the reason people get upset is because some aren't running "optimal builds" for the specific purpose of getting maximum return for minimum effort. It's elitist behaviour that is compounded by the fact that this is a very grind-heavy game.

Right, but if someone isn't running an "optimal build" as an Ember, nobody cares. Hell, that just means less competition for kills.

If someone isn't running an "optimal build" as a Nekros, the attitude is that my loot is getting penalized. That Soandso isn't playing a loot frame but is suddenly concerned about their loot acquisitions doesn't seem to matter, because someone else is running a loot frame.

[LazyKnight]

2 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Original Question-er here.

What this tells me is that at best, players will always try to finagle a way to get more loot, and at worst, the devs will force-feed more ways to us. It makes it very hard to trust any kind of legitimate support for these types of abilities, when the argument puts you neck-deep in what is visibly the self-interest and hypocrisy of players.

I want to kill the perceptions of "looter frames", and we all acknowledge the perceptions (if not the behaviors they provoke) are detrimental to the game. It confuses me that more players don't see it the same way.

I agree with your sentiments concerning the looter skills, by not using those skills your forfeiting reward and are not being as efficient. I would rather they just increase the drop rate and get rid of those skills, but I sincerely doubt that will occur after watching today's question answered.

The drop rate for some of those stance is without a doubt just horrid. With many of the loot-able mods DE is not even directly monetizing them outside those mods packs they have for sale (do they even give a chance at those desired cards?). 

Personally, If they want to make the drop rate less than 1%,I would rather just place it in the market for a direct buy. I am only missing a few stance I am not qqing about them, fyi, i'll get them sooner or later (i hope).

Edited March 19, 2016 by LazyKnight
auto correct fail

[Archwizard]

Just now, LazyKnight said:

Personal, If they want to make the drop rate less than 1%,I would rather just place it in the market for a direct buy. I am only missing a few stance I am not qqing about them, fyi, i'll get them sooner or later (i hope).

They did that with Vulpine Mask, adding it to the Destreza bundle.

Arguably, that just made things worse, since it presented as DE making things intentionally unfair so players would feel compelled to buy the bundle, without getting the right to complain (by a matter of split hairs) there's no other choice to acquire it.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I've never really encountered any Toxicity of that sort, and both Hydroid and Nekros are easy to mod for other things, and can be very effective. I don't see many people demand loot frames anymore, since the days of the "Mesa Machine" are over, and anybody who isn't desperate for a particular resource isn't really gonna care how many drops they get. it's only if they need something that they might call you out on it, but pretty much every resource has at least one good farming spot for it anyway.

Looting Skills are just a Luxury, not a necessity.

Edited March 18, 2016 by (PS4)robotwars7

[Smilomaniac]

1 minute ago, Archwizard said:

Right, but if someone isn't running an "optimal build" as an Ember, nobody cares. Hell, that just means less competition for kills.

If someone isn't running an "optimal build" as a Nekros, the attitude is that my loot is getting penalized. That Soandso isn't playing a loot frame but is suddenly concerned about their loot acquisitions doesn't seem to matter, because someone else is running a loot frame.

People always get miffed about suboptimal builds. It annoys them. Hell, it annoys me and if I turn up with a crap build, I fell downright ashamed of it for not doing the proper research. It's a normal reaction and it happens to everyone, only some haven't reached the level of maturity to cope with it.

By the way, affinity nets you a better distributed reward if someone else kills all the enemies, so in that case a suboptimal ember would not be a good thing :D

But yeah, I see the distinction and why this particular topic might raise some hostility between people - All I'm saying is that in the end, it's more about the way the game rewards you, rather than how people can "game" the system and that as far as I can see, this isn't unique to loot at all. EV trin, RJ Excal, Frost and others all have pretty particular builds and if they aren't built optimally or to peoples standards, you will see hostility. It's the same thing, whether it's loot, affinity, focus or time.

[notlamprey]

38 minutes ago, MumblesMcphatty said:

Also have to side with Scott on this. Loot skills don't cause toxicity.

Myopic, toxic players who believe in one-build-to-rule-them-all will be that way with any frame and any ability. It's just more obvious with Nekros + Hydroid because so many players are obsessed with having more useless "loot" that they don't really need. 

Nothing DE can do will change that - nor should they waste time trying. 

I'm don't blame Scott for being frustrated at the question, but I'm really disappointed that nobody was able to answer it any better than they did.

This topic has hung around for so long that I really would have expected someone to come to the couch with a reasonably complete opinion on it. We're talking about something that many of these folks should have intimate knowledge of: the core gameplay loop of Warframe.

Kill. Loot. Return.

Even a simple recounting of the topic's history would have been a better answer than what Scott gave us. Again, not blaming him for being sick of hearing about it, but the best way to avoid dealing with it any more is to put down a definitive stance. Build your opinion to last.

There is so much to kill and loot in this game that DE decided to expand the player's toolset with items that have potential to dramatically decrease the most unpleasant facets of the "grinding" process. One unpleasant side effect of these tools is the way they impact the core gameplay loop. As players, bringing these "loot kits" to a mission causes us to think much more frequently about the loot we are and aren't getting. We travel further and further down the path of "efficiency first" gameplay. The result, as I see it, is that the game becomes less satisfying.

Warframe is also a game which rewards extensive theorycrafting, and it was inevitable that the theorycrafting segment of the community would develop strong opinions regarding these loot kits.

I don't think it's reasonable to say that loot skills cause, or even significantly contribute to, the overall "toxicity" of the community. Warframe leaves a lot of room for player theory and opinion about a great many things, and it's either going to be this or something else. What we as players have to remember is that we have some options when it comes to distancing ourselves from people and situations we find unpleasant. I think a great deal of this supposed "toxicity" is a matter of perception; we imagine that we are being judged for our loadout choices, and then perhaps blame DE for what we are imagining.

That isn't to say that you will never encounter people who absolutely do start trouble over this stuff. I just think that this issue has sat unresolved long enough that our perception of its severity doesn't match the actual seriousness of the problem.

Edited March 18, 2016 by notlamprey
spelling derps

[wtrmlnjuc]

I don't think it necessarily causes toxicity, but it very much makes people build a frame solely for one skill. It'd be fine if the underlying frames are good, but for frames that need some adjustments, (Hydroid, Nekros, imo) it reduces build diversity and it somewhat obscures the issues at hand with the frame.

[SinReplica]

Simple answer is no. Some just love to complain and call everything 'toxic' for the most benign reasons these days. This player isn't playing how I demand they play, therefore, toxic...

They implement a means to help with drops and somehow that causes problems for, I guess, people who don't like drops? I mean, how dare we have Warframes use their core abilities that benefit everyone...

Scott was correct in his response.

Needless drama is needless.

[Lerzu]

It's less about the loot and more about the people. Some players will spew toxic bile on everything; it doesn't matter what loot there is or what builds you have, some people will scream because they don't use their head.

It's amazing how much you can learn about yourself if you just stop and think for a moment. I believe it's more commonly known as 'meditation'.
"It's just a game, why you have to be mad."

[Nox174]

As someone who frequently runs non Desecrate Nekros, people do assume I am doing the build, but it's not the frame that puts that subject of mind, it's what players expect. It doesn't breed toxicity, it's just something some players will latch onto, but those players would be toxic either way. 

[Aquasurge]

its pretty much the same with gun politics

Edited March 18, 2016 by Aquasurge

[Shuuro]

Now, this may just be me, but I'm pretty sure what caused the toxicity before was Mags Greedy pull, pulling everything into a pile. This in turn, was around when people were trying to enforce their *Camp in this location here because I want to be lazy* play style in others missions, trying to force the team to play the way they wanted to.

Now by all means, that's all fine and dandy, people still do that, nothing wrong with it either, just don't enforce your play style on other people and we'll all have a grand old time.

There are also other games that have enhanced loot table drops as abilities, passives, events, etc, and they do perfectly fine. If someone chooses to play Nekros for loot instead of soul punching things across the room. Let them.

[Nyrakav]

I've never really seen toxicity with Nekros or Hydroid. The occasional "Hey, do you have a desecrate build?" question, but nothing other than that.

[ChameleonDude]

Toxicity? Maybe amongst some people, but not that I've ever seen.

Balance issues? Yes. Just sticking extra loot drops on lacking abilities doesn't make it better, it just means that we have to take frame X or Y when we're after that shiny item. A rebalance of the loot system and a rework of any loot-based ability (including augments) so that they actually contribute to the mission, and not the reward, would be near the top of my list for this game. 

[Vantooth]

My understanding of things was not so much that players are toxic about it, but the mechanic itself is toxic to gameplay. By that I mean that it forces you into one build if you wish to get X mod or "drop". Some mods have 0.1% or less to drops, which is truly abysmal. With how much RNG can be against you, it takes everything you can bring with you to get a fraction more chance to get it, or you might have to spend countless hours for something you might not use just as much.

It's really not about players being toxic to others because of loot skills, it's about drop rates giving you the middle finger unless you run loot skills (and even then, just a bit less really). While not necessary for most of the game, in a game like warframe were people try to optimize everything and the grind is huge. If using a loot skill reduce the hours of grind by just a handful of seconds people will use them and most people will feel forced to run them if they don't want to spend an eternity grinding.

We need Drop 2.0!