To everyone that has seen Devstream 71 and still oppose genderswap

[arch111]

49 minutes ago, CoRRh said:

I guess this was inevitable. We had a more-or-less constructive thread about the alternate sex models the other day. Should only be expected that we get a "Hah, we told you so" thread.

Simply put, OP, this thread seems really subjective. Here is the problem with the entire debate over these alternate sex models: There is way too much opiniated BS being thrown. It's like trying to force feed somebody some fish they don't like. It's pointless, it pisses people off, and makes people not want to approach the issue. This thread is like the poster child for what is wrong with people these days. You don't realize that other people feel a different way about things, so you go ahead and try and push your opinions expecting them to feel the same way. Again, it's force feeding. Of course people are going to adversely react. You aren't giving an alternative and you sure as hell aren't providing a stage on which constructive conversations can exist.

I, personally, think the alternate sex models would be neat. More customization. I mean, we all know that Fashion Frame is the true endgame. Here's the thing though, I believe we should rationally approach this and not push it. Why? Because forcing the point is only going to make people avoid it. Besides this, there are plenty of valid arguments for and against it. You aren't inherently correct just because the picture looks neat. Use some actual logic. This is part of the reason DE mostly avoided the topic until this last devstream. Very little people thus far have, in an unbiased and constructive manner, discussed this topic. Threads for it are usually littered with massive opinions, closed mindedness, intolerance, bias, and sometimes even hostility. It would be like playing with a time bomb. And this is all from people who simply don't consider other people's thoughts. I would love to discuss this topic and others like it in the future. It's good to have points of disagreement, as it helps the community grow. However, threads like this spread toxicity, bias, and misinformation, and honestly make me want to join those who have given up on the topic.

With that, I'm not even going to bother actually responding to the thread. There's no point.

Thats a shame. You sound like another voice of reason in the choire.

[letir]

Nyx Nemesis skin is example of "different character".

[Doom_Bunny]

On 3/21/2016 at 2:58 AM, letir said:

Nyx Nemesis skin is example of "different character".

Nope try again. Switch between the two in your arsenal, from different angles if you want to. You'll see the shape doesn't change all that much; her breasts changed the most and yet it's only the angle of them that has changed.

On 3/21/2016 at 2:57 AM, Henji said:

I think you elaborating way too much on this matter, people just want boobs or dongs, its that simple. 

And with Tennogen there is a fair argument now with DE that the skins that come from there are NOT related to the lore of the game thus the idea of gender swap is more relevant atm.

This isn't elaborating too far, this is logical. It's not that simple when money is involved. People want it yes but as someone just pointed out there are others with different opinions. I've seen those sorts of people who would argue that having to buy skins just for the sex is terrible. Although I'd say that most of the people who would argue would start outside of warframe. Which means it would affect the public image.

Not at the moment. At this time tennogen is just skins, patterns, and helmets to put over and on the frame. Nothing serious such as changing the model. You change the model, you change the frame which affects the lore. Not to mention to get these skins to everyone (to be fair) DE would have to make them available in-game.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Postal_pat

[Henji]

1 hour ago, CoRRh said:

 

Threads for it are usually littered with massive opinions, closed mindedness, intolerance, bias, and sometimes even hostility.

You want some hostility ? THATS HOW YOU GET HOSTILITY !

Edited March 21, 2016 by Henji

[notlamprey]

We're talking about art here, so the most meaningful perspective is an aesthetic one.

I think "gender-swapping" the frames is something DE really should not be pressured to do, especially now that they're also allocating resources to the curation of TennoGen. In this particular case ("gender-swap" specifically), we already have Equinox, who probably explores that concept as far as DE is comfortable going. I absolutely believe in some healthy give-and-take between artist and audience, because art requires participation by both parties. That said, it sure feels as if some community members are attempting to strongarm DE into catering specifically to them.

I'm not okay with that. It is the sort of thing that risks killing the artist's ability to enjoy the work, and I wouldn't want to play this game if I felt the people making it were not ever genuinely "happy in their work."

Leaving considerations for the artist aside for a moment, the concept of "gender-swap" in artistic media is one that I don't really find very enjoyable or interesting. I find it ugly, the way someone might consider a piece of music or a plate of food to be ugly. Aesthetically ugly. Why not discuss the reality of things like Gender Dysphoria, which is an important human issue?

I think the discussion of "gender-swapping" as it relates specifically to Warframe has run its course, really. DE has advanced their tentative position on it for the time being, and I feel that we're unproductively pestering them with it now. Let's be respectful to them, their jobs, and the people who suffer from very real and debilitating mental health issues.

Let's drop it for a while.

[Rapiddragon]

It would be really really bad idea. All of the warframe are "characters" and have their gender  not just suit. Like you can't change mario into girl because you want a "change".( also i never want to see my beautiful nyx as a boy )

[Henji]

20 minutes ago, Postal_pat said:

This isn't elaborating too far, this is logical. It's not that simple when money is involved. People want it yes but as someone just pointed out there are others with different opinions. I've seen those sorts of people who would argue that having to buy skins just for the sex is terrible. Although I'd say that most of the people who would argue would start outside of warframe. Which means it would affect the public image.

Not at the moment. At this time tennogen is just skins, patterns and helmets to put over and on the frame. Nothing serious such as changing the model. You change the model, you change the frame which affects the lore. Not to mention to get these skins to everyone (to be fair) DE would have to put them in-game.

You didn't read what I posted before (page 10, last post)

I think this is a very weak argument to not add the skins trough the tennogen, its not without its merits, but  its realy up to the devs to decide if tennogen is a viable solution to avoid lore breaking.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Henji

[MumblesMcphatty]

2 hours ago, TheErebus. said:

Not if it looks like THAT ATROCIOUS THING.

You mean not if it actually fits the design aesthetic quite nicely while the actual Ash representation ingame turned out looking horribly awkward with all his bits tacked onto a frame that doesn't look comfortable with it?

Again this is all subjective opinions on both our sides but I really struggle to see how you can label the original Ash concept as 'disgusting'? 

Especially when what we have looks so horribly awkward and mashed together?

[fatpig84]

Just forget about gender swaps.

I rather DE used the art, make some changes and give us a brand new frame. 
Remember gender swaps DOUBLE the load Mynki and co have to put out.

Just treat it as a Moba ish style mechanics.
For example you don't see a Male version of Lina in Dota do you ?

[tnccs215]

19 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

We're talking about art here, so the most meaningful perspective is an aesthetic one.

I think "gender-swapping" the frames is something DE really should not be pressured to do, especially now that they're also allocating resources to the curation of TennoGen. In this particular case ("gender-swap" specifically), we already have Equinox, who probably explores that concept as far as DE is comfortable going. I absolutely believe in some healthy give-and-take between artist and audience, because art requires participation by both parties. That said, it sure feels as if some community members are attempting to strongarm DE into catering specifically to them.

I'm not okay with that. It is the sort of thing that risks killing the artist's ability to enjoy the work, and I wouldn't want to play this game if I felt the people making it were not ever genuinely "happy in their work."

Leaving considerations for the artist aside for a moment, the concept of "gender-swap" in artistic media is one that I don't really find very enjoyable or interesting. I find it ugly, the way someone might consider a piece of music or a plate of food to be ugly. Aesthetically ugly. Why not discuss the reality of things like Gender Dysphoria, which is an important human issue?

I think the discussion of "gender-swapping" as it relates specifically to Warframe has run its course, really. DE has advanced their tentative position on it for the time being, and I feel that we're unproductively pestering them with it now. Let's be respectful to them, their jobs, and the people who suffer from very real and debilitating mental health issues.

Let's drop it for a while.

I've heard a bit about you. You fit well the impression you gave me.

I mean this as a compliment, of course.

And I would love to discuss (and read more about) gender dysphoria around here, though quite too many people feel uncomfortable with the idea of having unrelated people discussing real life issues they don't feel comfortable with. Oh well, funny how you can discuss and compare several sword arts, but god forbid discussing actual problems.

[Doom_Bunny]

37 minutes ago, Henji said:

You didn't read what I posted before (page 10, last post)

If the models were all the same then we have a whole bunch of excaliburs wearing different costumes since his model is used in evry warframe hence why you see him evrytime your warframe takes too long to load.

What didn't I read? That one red sentence was your only remark on how selling or giving this freely would affect the community.

The models for the characters variants are the same; Ash prime still has the regular Ash model, Gemmini Valkyr still has the regular Valkyr model, etcetera, etcetera.It allows for the players to recognize a character when they see that body shape. We can explain your comment two different ways.

1. You can't do anything in-game without a character so it loads the basics Excal and skana. In-fact you can even start playing with them if things are really bad.
2. If they did just use Excal as a base model it would just serve to prove my point, you change the model you change the character. They start off with the basic Excal model and redesign it. Then they just use the new model for variants (prime what-not) of the new character.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Postal_pat

[ComfyOlivia]

2 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

And I would love to discuss (and read more about) gender dysphoria around here, though quite too many people feel uncomfortable with the idea of having unrelated people discussing real life issues they don't feel comfortable with. Oh well, funny how you can discuss and compare several sword arts, but god forbid discussing actual problems.

Oh, oh, ohhh, pick me captain! I have a valid argument! Pick me!

Well, here I go.....

 

I believe we are a community based around a Video Game that should keep discussions pertinent to that. Any variety of Sword Arts would have a perfectly valid place here as a large portion of the game is based around the idea of using weapons in different styles, and you can often find people who devote their playtime to perfecting the use of these weapons through their particular styles. I don't see groups running around going "Female Frames Best Frames Cause Hips". 

Besides all that, these forums are here for discussing the game and its' issues. I believe hot topics should be open to discussion, but mental issues/disabilities/conditions would technically be off topic. 

Personally, I have a keen interest in psychology and conditions of this type, but these forums are not the place to go deeply into them. It's something that would belong in the off-topic area of the forums or in private messages, as it would be a deep discussion.

Besides that, I feel as though it as no place inside of the game itself as well. I think the game should definitely touch base with psychological factors as some point. In fact, it already has in some respects. The Stalker has issues, that's for sure. The tenno are kids and were made to be gods of war, killing all innocence they had. It goes further. I feel as though it could go even further, just to darken the tone a bit more, but I don't feel like an issue like gender dysphoria would make the tone darker. Besides that, Psychological effects of isolation and harm are more relatable. While we cannot yet say if someone is more capable or not than another of acquiring any particular mental condition, Gender Dysphoria and any related conditions are much less common than something like psychopathy, sociopathy, or even insanity; themes that have all been deeply explored and explained. 

 

That's my take on it. It makes sense to talk about things that can be off-topic as long as you can properly link them with in-game things. A mental condition like Gender Dysphoria, though? I can't think of anything in-game that you could relate it to without seriously twisting some information. 

[Finedaible]

I think most people here are going way too meta for this discussion. DE has made their artistic and stylistic choices for the game, and stuff must stay within that theme or risk it feeling out of place within the Warframe universe. This is why an artist will sketch several different concepts and maybe only use one or two in the end.

At the same time, every warframe has its own theme, sometimes it's an element, sometimes it's a mythical god or goddess. Suddenly having a male Nyx (Nyx is a Greek godESS of night) seems kinda awkwardly stupid. If my sources are correct, Vauban was partly inspired by an actual French military engineer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9bastien_Le_Prestre_de_Vauban); You would be disrupting the theme of these frames just for a bit of "eye candy".

[Henji]

39 minutes ago, Postal_pat said:

 

1. If they did just use Excal as a base model it would just serve to prove my point, you change the model you change the character. They start off with the basic Excal model and redesign it. Then they just use the new model for variants (prime what-not) of the new character.

So you saying that Nyx itself is a acceptable exception ? Not wanting to cherry pick here but think this trough first.

[arch111]

What if the polar (opposite)-sex was actually re-designed? 

I see a common trend here. The assumption that man and female wil look identical exept anatomy.

Put yourself in Mynkis shoes. Would he settle for just a modelswap? Hell no. He would keep the theme and basic look such as the helmet and feet/hands and then so a new design for the rest. 

That way you would say;

"Excalibur looks really cool, but the female Excalibur has got these cool blades, they are the same but different. "

If I would do a say female Frost, I would make an Ice Queen, a Wraith of the cold with a regal winter-coat. And you better believe I would not send anything to DE unless I was really happy with it.

[Sziklamester]

I would like to try the opposite gendered frames but the only technical way it can be developed is the model copy and drastically changing them but keeping their looks similar and rename them as new frame. There could be also add an option to use / share abilities between the gender abilities.

As an addition skin it sounds a bit weird if u choose for example rhino and choosing a female skin for him. They have already finished models and have some base models which could be useful making new ones and a lot of new frames using existing models but some points changed. Not everything made from scratch so in the future technically possible to see the gender alternatives in some way but for it need to change a lot of systems and need a way to introduce them without touching too deep in the current lore.

[Currilicious]

7 hours ago, Postal_pat said:

That's one thing no one has really touched on. Although it's fine to say you're willing to buy it there are other people who would not be so fine with paying just to have a different sex. Which in turn creates media attention as more people gain wind and disagree with having to buy male/female skins.

 

One way to go about it is to allow the players to choose the gender when building the frame.

[phoenix1992]

The thread right now.

OP, are you okay with that? 
With that pretty much clickbaity title, that will make certain users ignore the content of what has been discussed?

PS: I have made my two points with that. I am sure the majority of players do not OPPOSE IT (dang it, use different word, will ya?), but the current climate of the game makes the idea shine in bad light. And pushing it to Steam would be

[TheErebus.]

7 hours ago, MumblesMcphatty said:

You mean not if it actually fits the design aesthetic quite nicely while the actual Ash representation ingame turned out looking horribly awkward with all his bits tacked onto a frame that doesn't look comfortable with it?

Again this is all subjective opinions on both our sides but I really struggle to see how you can label the original Ash concept as 'disgusting'? 

Especially when what we have looks so horribly awkward and mashed together?

 

9 hours ago, arch111 said:

This being the concept art for Ash, the end product really is very similar.  I am not sure what you do not like, but this was a basic concept,  and as such shall never be taken litterally.

I dare say that ANY genderskins that get DE'S seal of aproval, will have the highest standard just like everything choosen from tennogen so far. 

Let's take a lookie at how I dislike the original female design concept for Ash:

Firstly, that ponytail. It is way too long and that heavy mass at the end just looks off-putting. Secondly, the fingers and nails. Those nails are just ugly looking, the hands themselves are meh. Hell I don't even use the Ash Prime helmet because of the ponytail (Scorpion head ftw)

And finally...the face. It looks like an old person or some kinda alien. I don't know about you, but I don't wanna play as a frame who's face looks like an old alien from Mass Effect.

Yes arch, I do understand that it's concept art and that the final design (if it was female) would most likely not resemble this. What I originally said is to be taken in jest (like practically every single post I make). I still dislike it because I find it unappealing to what is my favourite frame in the game itself.

As for you, Mumbles. I dunno what you're talking about with the design of the current Ash looking like a jumbled mix of other things. To me he looks great. I can dislike one design but hate the other.

Edited March 22, 2016 by TheErebus.

[arch111]

58 minutes ago, TheErebus. said:

 

Let's take a lookie at how I dislike the original female design concept for Ash:

Firstly, that ponytail. It is way too long and that heavy mass at the end just looks off-putting. Secondly, the fingers and nails. Those nails are just ugly looking, the hands themselves are meh. Hell I don't even use the Ash Prime helmet because of the ponytail (Scorpion head ftw)

And finally...the face. It looks like an old person or some kinda alien. I don't know about you, but I don't wanna play as a frame who's face looks like an old alien from Mass Effect.

Yes arch, I do understand that it's concept art and that the final design (if it was female) would most likely not resemble this. What I originally said is to be taken in jest (like practically every single post I make). I still dislike it because I find it unappealing to what is my favourite frame in the game itself.

As for you, Mumbles. I dunno what you're talking about with the design of the current Ash looking like a jumbled mix of other things. To me he looks great. I can dislike one design but hate the other.

I see what you mean. It looks weird and strange. I see that as angles and artstyle mainly.

This is my interpretation of that sketch.

I don't know if you like it any better, but there it is :)

[(PSN)Mazda_07_]

Only problem I see with it is lore other wise have at it de 0

[Doom_Bunny]

8 hours ago, Henji said:

So you saying that Nyx itself is a acceptable exception ? Not wanting to cherry pick here but think this trough first.

Nope (think through what I say), people want a gender bent Excal not a different character. Unfortunately that can't happen due to how the characters are structured (I went through this is in the first post). The model is used for all things about that character without the same shape of the model the character becomes something else. Variants such as primes, premiums, and prototypes which may change the model in small amounts are given lore to explain why the character is like this however the original shape isn't drastically changed. If you do change the model to masculine/feminine you no longer have the same character. Even if you kept the same abilities it still would be a different character except it would look like someone skimped on the abilities.

If you believe what you said in your previous post, that Excal is the base model for every character. Then this thread wouldn't exist because every female frame would just be a gender bent Excal.

3 hours ago, Currilicious said:

One way to go about it is to allow the players to choose the gender when building the frame.

Which would require DE's work, the point of using tennogen was to get around DE using resources on this idea.

[MagPrime]

3 hours ago, Currilicious said:

One way to go about it is to allow the players to choose the gender when building the frame.

Or have the Warframes entirely neutral and the players buy gender cosmetics.

Three birds, one potato!

[notlamprey]

1 hour ago, Noamuth said:

Or have the Warframes entirely neutral and the players buy gender cosmetics.

Three birds, one potato!

This is a terrible idea. Potatos come from the ground, and are therefore best thrown at ground-dwelling creatures.

Everybody knows that.

[zValor]

1 hour ago, Noamuth said:

Or have the Warframes entirely neutral and the players buy gender cosmetics.

Three birds, one potato!

or we can just accept that some frames are male and some are female and move on with life.