Devstream #72 Overview

[ComfyOlivia]

5 hours ago, Neuria said:

People complaining about Banshee being too "fat" need to look up what "fat" really is when it defines a person by weight. She's thicker than your average frame, yes, but she's always had hips, they were just obscured by armor. This skin is no more than what would be considered curvaceous. ...These must be the same people who try and say Beyoncé is fat, when the reality is, they're just not used to seeing a woman with some meat on her bones, and are too accustomed to the Runway Model niche of being nigh anorexic to achieve "beauty".

 

And no, this isn't me simply defending Banshee because I play and enjoy the frame, I'd be in the same position if it were any other frame. No one complains when male frames are all sorts of masculine. No one complains about Saryn having hooker heels. So what the hell is the issue with a frame that's only just breaking in to the definition of 'thick'? It's fine if people don't like it, everyone is entitled to their own tastes and beliefs of what is appealing, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

But if you're going to badmouth something, at least throw some tact behind it people, "she's fat" is unrealistic in every definition of the word. And if you don't like it, you don't need to speak as if though your opinion is thee word of god, for crying out loud. Move on to another skin/frame and stop whining. I didn't like the new Valkyr skin at all. You know what I did? I didn't use it, I continued enjoying the frame, and I didn't say a word on the forums. That's literally all you have to do, no more, no less, end of story.

 

I agree that she isn't fat and is more on the side of "curvy", but my agreement stops there. 

 

Frames are made around a theme and the way they are made is supposed to match that theme. I cannot think of any non-proto frames (Excal and Nyx are proto frames which come from the Dark Sector game) that are thoughtlessly shaped (until we come to a couple of the deluxe skins).

Rhino is a tanky "rush in head first" type. Therefore, he's bulky as hell. His deluxe skin makes him look like a Knight.

Oberon is supposed to be a shaman/fairy king type (look up oberon on the internet). His normal skin makes him look like a deer (hails to the shaman thing) and his deluxe gives him butterfly wings (like the traditional Oberon).

Chroma is another tank and is also very big.

Nekros is a necromancer and has the skin-and-bones look to back it up.

Ash is supposed to be an edgy ninja type with a lot of acrobatic potential, and is therefore muscular as hell (he does flips and stuff).

Frost has a parka. 'Nuff said.

Hydroid calls in a kraken, so he's shaped and themed around Davy Jones from Pirates of the Caribbean.

Inaros is a mummy and is made to look so. He's skinnier than nekros.

Saryn is supposed to be the toxifying beauty type. Her deluxe skin gives her a nature-esque feel and gives her a flower thing.

Ivara is supposed to be the meek sneaky type, so she's petite.

Trinity is meant to be a holy healer type, and is therefore more majestic and big than simply pretty or whatever. Her deluxe skin is confusing, but still provides us with a halo.

Zephyr is an air frame and looks mildly like a bird. Simple.

 

Now, we come to Banshee.

Banshee is a sound based frame that is named after the Banshee from mythical folklore. Banshees were spirits that would warn and tell of death through blood churning screeches and wailing. In the mythos, they were known to be able to change their physical appearance to adopt the looks of someone young or even someone old. Most often, though, they appeared as frail and with tattered clothing. So, why is this important to know? With essentially every Deluxe skin, a new spin was thrown onto the frame. The biggest thing they missed with the Original Banshee skin is that it completely neglects the mythological aspect of a Banshee and focused on the sound part. Here's where we come to my main issue with the render of the skin when we think of the concept art.

The Banshee concept art matches the Mythological aspects of what a Banshee is supposed to be. Lean, spooky elegance. However, they killed this vibe with the second concept art and further desecrated it with the render.

•  The part on the arm (which was changed due to clipping issues that could have been solved by making it not be static) gave to the chaotic and spooky factor. This is now a record looking bit with some random bit attached to her elbow.
• The dress hailed to the tattered and flow-y feel of what a Banshee is supposed to be. It looks like just another piece of armor slabbed on. Because they added the lines and crevices, it just seems really static and metallic now. This wasn't at all necessary. Go look at the Trinity Strega skin. The body texture makes it look like actual clothes. It's not a question of whether or not they were willing to do it, as they obviously were when they made the Trinity one.
• Even in the concept art where the record stuff was added, the stockings had some character. There were little designs and such on them. Now, there's just more little crevices that kill the cloth-y elegant feel.
• The little spots on the dress looked like eyes in the concept art. This added to the mythical spooky feel. Now, they're just dots with minuscule little circles in the middle that are hardly noticeable.

Now, I need to talk about the body proportions (which will probably get me more flak than anything). However, let me preface this real quick. I, in no way, shape, or form, condone any sort of discrimination when it comes to physical appearance. I don't care about what anybody's body looks like. I think the health aspect should be considered, but that's up to you to worry about being unhealthy. In reality, I don't actually care too much about what people on the internet think of me, but I just didn't want anybody getting caught up on the topic of "OMG, HE THINKS THE SKIN IS TOO THICK SO HE MUST HAVE SOMETHING AGAINST BIG PEOPLE". Hell, I'm personally overweight. Do I think I should be treated like another normal part of society? No. It's not healthy, it's very taxing, and honestly makes a lot of aspects of my life miserable. Short of mental and/or physical harm, I think society should try its' damnedest to get everyone to a healthy lifestyle, whether that means more exercise or even less harmful foods. It's good to accept how you look, because you'll be otherwise miserable. However, acceptance is only one step in being the best (or in this case, the healthiest) you can be. Rome wasn't built in a day. In the end, though, it's still your choice, and we shouldn't go after people that either try to make things appear in their most healthy state or try to make them look otherwise simply because of our preconceived notions on what a person should look like. Make conversations constructive. 

 So, with that said, I feel as though making Banshee thicker in the render doesn't make sense in 3 ways: Thematically, lore-wise, and mythologically.

• As said before, the mythos described banshees of always being very small. Whether they were the young ladies or the old, haggard ladies, they always had a more frail vibe. The thicker look doesn't give off a frail vibe.
• As a tie-in with the mythos, the render's thickness doesn't make sense in the theme. On top of the fact that DE was given a frail banshee feel with the concept art and failed to keep the vibe, but I'm honestly not getting how the thickness was even a choice in the entire thing. Even in a sound theme with the original banshee skin, they went with something more wavey and long, which makes sense with something that has to do with the pressure of sound. Instead, this skin adds something that doesn't fit. Why is it thicker? What's the purpose? Mynki has always done an amazing job at making every large detail support the theme and mixes it with little details that enhance the larger details. This skin seems to go against that. The concept did it well by making things fit together. It was primarily mythological-banshee themed with a subtle touch of sound-theme. The render seems to want to make both themes the primary by taking away the subtleness of the sound parts and leaving the banshee parts to be just as loud. It's like a fight over the two aspects that exploded and added in unnecessary details that further ruined it (the weird crevices and the thickness are part of this). Either way, the thickness doesn't match the mythological aspect, and doesn't add to the sound aspect in any sort of way I can think of.
• And now we come done to the lore. I can only think of one way to word this correctly, and it's something I've written before, so I'm just going to copy/paste.

"The frames were built to perform their roles in the best way possible. Extra weight for a frame that shouldn't be taking a lot of hits is a hindrance. The Orokin simply wouldn't allow that sort of inefficiency. Rhino is bulky because he's a tank. Nova is small and petite because she is a caster without a lot of defensive capability; she needs to run when she can."

So, what do I mean by this? I'm basically saying that the orokin were building machines of mass destruction. The frames needed to accomplish their goal the best they could. Thus, frames like Rhino and Chroma, which were made to be tanks, were made large, thick, and heavy. Frames that couldn't take a lot of hits were made smaller and more maneuverable so that they could run away quickly. Banshee is by no means a tank. Hell, she isn't even supposed to be physically overpowering. She is a caster. I mean, there are some casters that are even meatier in the effective health department. Even past the name and the theme and whatever, it wouldn't sense for her to be anything but frail-looking, simply because she is a frail frame. She has an ability dedicated to pushing enemies away from her so that she can run away without problems.

 

In the end, the issues aren't exclusive to the thickness, as much as we have made them out to be. The themes in the render seemingly fight eachother. The size of the head in the render is simply too large. A lot of the character was moved around and lost in translation.

Now, I'm not saying the skin is a bad job. Honestly, anything coming from Mynki is going to be way above the average as far as modeling goes in any game. However, it simply doesn't meet the role of the Banshee. 

 

Spoiler

 

3 hours ago, AntifaHooligan said:

I think people still don't quite understand the concept of these deluxe skins. They're supposed to be different, that's their purpose. They bring a new aesthetic to the frame. 
Or are you going to say Trinity Strega has the same body & theme than original? Valkyr? Saryn? Oberon? Why aren't you all complaining about those?
I absolutely love the new skin, and I'm sure a lot more people do, and will get it. But that's because I see it for what it is: a different take on a already consolidated frame aesthetic. if you want a "improved" skin, that's what primes are for.

Edit: The fact you guys are completely disregarding the artistic side of it all because she looks "fat" and "not sexy enough" is just sad, sad, sad...
Edit 2: I feel bad for Mynki, spending so much time working on something and then getting this kind of shallow feedback. ;w;

"I think people still don't quite understand the concept of these deluxe skins. They're supposed to be different, that's their purpose. They bring a new aesthetic to the frame."

And there lies one of the main issues. The Original Banshee Skin completely leaves out the fact that a Banshee is an old spirit that floated around and scared the pants off of Europeans back when everyone was a religious nut. It was based solely on the sound aspect of things. Adding a bunch of sound aspects to what would have almost completely left out the sound aspect (but still included it in a very subtle way) makes it MORE like the original skin.

"Why aren't you all complaining about those?"

Because they stuck to the concept art and came out nicely. That's another issue. Instead of sticking to the original ideas, they changed it a bunch. It's like making a set of plans and then changing your mind halfway through. It just doesn't work as cohesively in the end, because you weren't thinking of everything as a whole, just what would make things more simple for you at the moment.

"I absolutely love the new skin, and I'm sure a lot more people do, and will get it."

A lot of people liking it doesn't necessarily make it good. A lot of people liked it when Hitler was their leader.

"But that's because I see it for what it is: a different take on a already consolidated frame aesthetic."

But, again, there lies the issue. While it's physically different, the theme didn't change. It's still mostly about sound.

"if you want a "improved" skin, that's what primes are for."

So should DE not attempt to improve on previous ideas? Sorry, but the deluxe skins that have large popularity now are all more detailed and cohesive than their original counterparts. Hell, even with the Banshee's skin's issues, it's more detailed than the original skin.

"The fact you guys are completely disregarding the artistic side of it all because she looks "fat" and "not sexy enough" is just sad, sad, sad..."

It's also sad when people disregard the fact that just because something is artistic doesn't mean it's of quality. 

Also, if you hit "ctrl+f" you can search an entire page for a phrase. The phrase "not sexy" only came up in your post. Granted, the post above yours got a little strange.

 

1 hour ago, Neuria said:

Just because you're not pleased, doesn't mean everyone is. There's a large majority that likes the skin, and believe it flows well with the character. Please do not add these invisible majorities to bolster your points; the most popular negative opinion on Banshee is that she's "too fat", you're actually the first I've heard try to say the new concept doesn't follow the original.

 

Firstly, consider the name Banshee. It's a spirit in Irish mythology that's commonly depicted with feminine features and a tattered dress. ...Now look at the new skin, anything ringing for you yet? Banshee is a frame based on sound, look at her headgear; even the devs joke about her being a DJ at times. If you ask me, I think her new skin fits her original concept just fine.

 

P.S. - You can't please everyone, but I think he did his job well enough if so many enjoy it.

"Just because you're not pleased, doesn't mean everyone is."

Just because you're pleased doesn't mean everyone (or even a majority) is. Remember, broad statements with loose logic can go both ways. It seems nitpicky, but I have issues with loose logic. Must be some mental thing. Like a nervous tic.

"There's a large majority that likes the skin, and believe it flows well with the character. Please do not add these invisible majorities to bolster your points; the most popular negative opinion on Banshee is that she's 'too fat'"

As you said, please don't add invisible majorities to your points. This thread seems pretty split. Don't twist things to your benefit. Stupid reasoning is still reasoning and doesn't make their opinion matter any less. I see plenty of "Damn, she's sexy now" on the side of the skin staying the way it is.

"the most popular negative opinion on Banshee is that she's 'too fat'"

Obscene and astonishing views tend to make the most impact. 

"Firstly, consider the name Banshee. It's a spirit in Irish mythology that's commonly depicted with feminine features and a tattered dress."

Yup.

"Now look at the new skin, anything ringing for you yet?"

Yep, but do you know what got me better? When the dress and stocking didn't look like they were super-glued to a very creviced body, the arm and the eye things on the dress made it spooky, and sound wasn't the overarching theme like it was in the Original skin that actually entirely sound based. 

"Banshee is a frame based on sound"

And that's why her original skin is entirely based on sound. The deluxe really should have mostly played on the mythological aspect to truly be unique. In the concept art, it did. Now, the parts that made it ghostly are gone. The dress isn't very flowy, the arm now has a record on it, the dress is hardly tattered, and the spooky eye spots are just spots now.

"If you ask me, I think her new skin fits her original concept just fine."

That because it does. However, these Deluxe skins are meant to play off of a different idea than the original. Honestly, Banshee needed a completely unique skin more than most other frames. Only frame I can think of right now that only stuck to one basic idea in their original skin. A ghostly banshee would have been neat, but it's mostly a "DJ" now.

 

In the end, it's my opinion on whether or not the skin is good. Personally, I think the skin is very well-made and I probably would have bought it without issue if the concept art didn't exist. My biggest problem is not with the skin itself, but with the difference between the skin and the concept art. The Concept Art captured the mythological banshee feel very well. It contrasted well from the original banshee skin and focused on the fact that the original didn't have really any mythological banshee aspects to it. Then, DE took away from that and made it more akin to the original. They had a shining example of how to make the Deluxe skin the best way and instead vouched to make something more similar to the original. I just can't get behind that. Similar isn't bad, but the fact that they could have made something more unique just irks me.

[Xianos_Chaos]

I hope they pull back on their duration fetish they been pushing in the past couple of warframes.....

[Neuria]

50 minutes ago, (XB1)Graysmog said:

To be quite honest, the only difference between the Concept of both skins is Banshee's thicker thighs and edited arm (which honestly looks better in my opinion, as it complements her helm much more), while the Loki Knaive skin only has the tiny ponytail-esque thing gone. That's it.

What's exactly the big deal? Their both amazing looking skins. If anything could be improved, I'd just say Banshee should be standing more on her tip-toes, yet it really is just me nit-picking.

It's not me that has a problem with the new skin, though I'm personally happier with not standing on her tip-toes; that's probably just because when I see myself running in to battle, it would really come off more as a hindrance more than anything. Coming from someone who's worn high heels and all... I mean, tip-toes isn't that different. Sure, in a lunge you're pushing off of the ball of your foot, but to stay like that 24/7 would kill your balance and off-set a lot of mobility. ....But uh, yeah, nit-picking, heheh.

[Neuria]

41 minutes ago, CoRRh said:

 

I agree that she isn't fat and is more on the side of "curvy", but my agreement stops there. 

 

Frames are made around a theme and the way they are made is supposed to match that theme. I cannot think of any non-proto frames (Excal and Nyx are proto frames which come from the Dark Sector game) that are thoughtlessly shaped (until we come to a couple of the deluxe skins).

Rhino is a tanky "rush in head first" type. Therefore, he's bulky as hell. His deluxe skin makes him look like a Knight.

Oberon is supposed to be a shaman/fairy king type (look up oberon on the internet). His normal skin makes him look like a deer (hails to the shaman thing) and his deluxe gives him butterfly wings (like the traditional Oberon).

Chroma is another tank and is also very big.

Nekros is a necromancer and has the skin-and-bones look to back it up.

Ash is supposed to be an edgy ninja type with a lot of acrobatic potential, and is therefore muscular as hell (he does flips and stuff).

Frost has a parka. 'Nuff said.

Hydroid calls in a kraken, so he's shaped and themed around Davy Jones from Pirates of the Caribbean.

Inaros is a mummy and is made to look so. He's skinnier than nekros.

Saryn is supposed to be the toxifying beauty type. Her deluxe skin gives her a nature-esque feel and gives her a flower thing.

Ivara is supposed to be the meek sneaky type, so she's petite.

Trinity is meant to be a holy healer type, and is therefore more majestic and big than simply pretty or whatever. Her deluxe skin is confusing, but still provides us with a halo.

Zephyr is an air frame and looks mildly like a bird. Simple.

 

Now, we come to Banshee.

Banshee is a sound based frame that is named after the Banshee from mythical folklore. Banshees were spirits that would warn and tell of death through blood churning screeches and wailing. In the mythos, they were known to be able to change their physical appearance to adopt the looks of someone young or even someone old. Most often, though, they appeared as frail and with tattered clothing. So, why is this important to know? With essentially every Deluxe skin, a new spin was thrown onto the frame. The biggest thing they missed with the Original Banshee skin is that it completely neglects the mythological aspect of a Banshee and focused on the sound part. Here's where we come to my main issue with the render of the skin when we think of the concept art.

The Banshee concept art matches the Mythological aspects of what a Banshee is supposed to be. Lean, spooky elegance. However, they killed this vibe with the second concept art and further desecrated it with the render.

•  The part on the arm (which was changed due to clipping issues that could have been solved by making it not be static) gave to the chaotic and spooky factor. This is now a record looking bit with some random bit attached to her elbow.
• The dress hailed to the tattered and flow-y feel of what a Banshee is supposed to be. It looks like just another piece of armor slabbed on. Because they added the lines and crevices, it just seems really static and metallic now. This wasn't at all necessary. Go look at the Trinity Strega skin. The body texture makes it look like actual clothes. It's not a question of whether or not they were willing to do it, as they obviously were when they made the Trinity one.
• Even in the concept art where the record stuff was added, the stockings had some character. There were little designs and such on them. Now, there's just more little crevices that kill the cloth-y elegant feel.
• The little spots on the dress looked like eyes in the concept art. This added to the mythical spooky feel. Now, they're just dots with minuscule little circles in the middle that are hardly noticeable.

Now, I need to talk about the body proportions (which will probably get me more flak than anything). However, let me preface this real quick. I, in no way, shape, or form, condone any sort of discrimination when it comes to physical appearance. I don't care about what anybody's body looks like. I think the health aspect should be considered, but that's up to you to worry about being unhealthy. In reality, I don't actually care too much about what people on the internet think of me, but I just didn't want anybody getting caught up on the topic of "OMG, HE THINKS THE SKIN IS TOO THICK SO HE MUST HAVE SOMETHING AGAINST BIG PEOPLE". Hell, I'm personally overweight. Do I think I should be treated like another normal part of society? No. It's not healthy, it's very taxing, and honestly makes a lot of aspects of my life miserable. Short of mental and/or physical harm, I think society should try its' damnedest to get everyone to a healthy lifestyle, whether that means more exercise or even less harmful foods. It's good to accept how you look, because you'll be otherwise miserable. However, acceptance is only one step in being the best (or in this case, the healthiest) you can be. Rome wasn't built in a day. In the end, though, it's still your choice, and we shouldn't go after people that either try to make things appear in their most healthy state or try to make them look otherwise simply because of our preconceived notions on what a person should look like. Make conversations constructive. 

 So, with that said, I feel as though making Banshee thicker in the render doesn't make sense in 3 ways: Thematically, lore-wise, and mythologically.

• As said before, the mythos described banshees of always being very small. Whether they were the young ladies or the old, haggard ladies, they always had a more frail vibe. The thicker look doesn't give off a frail vibe.
• As a tie-in with the mythos, the render's thickness doesn't make sense in the theme. On top of the fact that DE was given a frail banshee feel with the concept art and failed to keep the vibe, but I'm honestly not getting how the thickness was even a choice in the entire thing. Even in a sound theme with the original banshee skin, they went with something more wavey and long, which makes sense with something that has to do with the pressure of sound. Instead, this skin adds something that doesn't fit. Why is it thicker? What's the purpose? Mynki has always done an amazing job at making every large detail support the theme and mixes it with little details that enhance the larger details. This skin seems to go against that. The concept did it well by making things fit together. It was primarily mythological-banshee themed with a subtle touch of sound-theme. The render seems to want to make both themes the primary by taking away the subtleness of the sound parts and leaving the banshee parts to be just as loud. It's like a fight over the two aspects that exploded and added in unnecessary details that further ruined it (the weird crevices and the thickness are part of this). Either way, the thickness doesn't match the mythological aspect, and doesn't add to the sound aspect in any sort of way I can think of.
• And now we come done to the lore. I can only think of one way to word this correctly, and it's something I've written before, so I'm just going to copy/paste.

"The frames were built to perform their roles in the best way possible. Extra weight for a frame that shouldn't be taking a lot of hits is a hindrance. The Orokin simply wouldn't allow that sort of inefficiency. Rhino is bulky because he's a tank. Nova is small and petite because she is a caster without a lot of defensive capability; she needs to run when she can."

So, what do I mean by this? I'm basically saying that the orokin were building machines of mass destruction. The frames needed to accomplish their goal the best they could. Thus, frames like Rhino and Chroma, which were made to be tanks, were made large, thick, and heavy. Frames that couldn't take a lot of hits were made smaller and more maneuverable so that they could run away quickly. Banshee is by no means a tank. Hell, she isn't even supposed to be physically overpowering. She is a caster. I mean, there are some casters that are even meatier in the effective health department. Even past the name and the theme and whatever, it wouldn't sense for her to be anything but frail-looking, simply because she is a frail frame. She has an ability dedicated to pushing enemies away from her so that she can run away without problems.

 

In the end, the issues aren't exclusive to the thickness, as much as we have made them out to be. The themes in the render seemingly fight eachother. The size of the head in the render is simply too large. A lot of the character was moved around and lost in translation.

Now, I'm not saying the skin is a bad job. Honestly, anything coming from Mynki is going to be way above the average as far as modeling goes in any game. However, it simply doesn't meet the role of the Banshee. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

"I think people still don't quite understand the concept of these deluxe skins. They're supposed to be different, that's their purpose. They bring a new aesthetic to the frame."

And there lies one of the main issues. The Original Banshee Skin completely leaves out the fact that a Banshee is an old spirit that floated around and scared the pants off of Europeans back when everyone was a religious nut. It was based solely on the sound aspect of things. Adding a bunch of sound aspects to what would have almost completely left out the sound aspect (but still included it in a very subtle way) makes it MORE like the original skin.

"Why aren't you all complaining about those?"

Because they stuck to the concept art and came out nicely. That's another issue. Instead of sticking to the original ideas, they changed it a bunch. It's like making a set of plans and then changing your mind halfway through. It just doesn't work as cohesively in the end, because you weren't thinking of everything as a whole, just what would make things more simple for you at the moment.

"I absolutely love the new skin, and I'm sure a lot more people do, and will get it."

A lot of people liking it doesn't necessarily make it good. A lot of people liked it when Hitler was their leader.

"But that's because I see it for what it is: a different take on a already consolidated frame aesthetic."

But, again, there lies the issue. While it's physically different, the theme didn't change. It's still mostly about sound.

"if you want a "improved" skin, that's what primes are for."

So should DE not attempt to improve on previous ideas? Sorry, but the deluxe skins that have large popularity now are all more detailed and cohesive than their original counterparts. Hell, even with the Banshee's skin's issues, it's more detailed than the original skin.

"The fact you guys are completely disregarding the artistic side of it all because she looks "fat" and "not sexy enough" is just sad, sad, sad..."

It's also sad when people disregard the fact that just because something is artistic doesn't mean it's of quality. 

Also, if you hit "ctrl+f" you can search an entire page for a phrase. The phrase "not sexy" only came up in your post. Granted, the post above yours got a little strange.

 

"Just because you're not pleased, doesn't mean everyone is."

Just because you're pleased doesn't mean everyone (or even a majority) is. Remember, broad statements with loose logic can go both ways. It seems nitpicky, but I have issues with loose logic. Must be some mental thing. Like a nervous tic.

"There's a large majority that likes the skin, and believe it flows well with the character. Please do not add these invisible majorities to bolster your points; the most popular negative opinion on Banshee is that she's 'too fat'"

As you said, please don't add invisible majorities to your points. This thread seems pretty split. Don't twist things to your benefit. Stupid reasoning is still reasoning and doesn't make their opinion matter any less. I see plenty of "Damn, she's sexy now" on the side of the skin staying the way it is.

"the most popular negative opinion on Banshee is that she's 'too fat'"

Obscene and astonishing views tend to make the most impact. 

"Firstly, consider the name Banshee. It's a spirit in Irish mythology that's commonly depicted with feminine features and a tattered dress."

Yup.

"Now look at the new skin, anything ringing for you yet?"

Yep, but do you know what got me better? When the dress and stocking didn't look like they were super-glued to a very creviced body, the arm and the eye things on the dress made it spooky, and sound wasn't the overarching theme like it was in the Original skin that actually entirely sound based. 

"Banshee is a frame based on sound"

And that's why her original skin is entirely based on sound. The deluxe really should have mostly played on the mythological aspect to truly be unique. In the concept art, it did. Now, the parts that made it ghostly are gone. The dress isn't very flowy, the arm now has a record on it, the dress is hardly tattered, and the spooky eye spots are just spots now.

"If you ask me, I think her new skin fits her original concept just fine."

That because it does. However, these Deluxe skins are meant to play off of a different idea than the original. Honestly, Banshee needed a completely unique skin more than most other frames. Only frame I can think of right now that only stuck to one basic idea in their original skin. A ghostly banshee would have been neat, but it's mostly a "DJ" now.

 

In the end, it's my opinion on whether or not the skin is good. Personally, I think the skin is very well-made and I probably would have bought it without issue if the concept art didn't exist. My biggest problem is not with the skin itself, but with the difference between the skin and the concept art. The Concept Art captured the mythological banshee feel very well. It contrasted well from the original banshee skin and focused on the fact that the original didn't have really any mythological banshee aspects to it. Then, DE took away from that and made it more akin to the original. They had a shining example of how to make the Deluxe skin the best way and instead vouched to make something more similar to the original. I just can't get behind that. Similar isn't bad, but the fact that they could have made something more unique just irks me.

"P.S. - You can't please everyone."

 

Pretty much my only response to all that, but I'm happy you cared enough to break down proper criticism of where you stand rather than leave off with "I don't like it because I don't like it."

 

Edit: Also, I don't get the positive majorities I mentioned from thin-air. In Relays, in Region chat, and just general talk; it's mostly positive for the skin. (At least from what all I and my friends have seen.)

Edited April 2, 2016 by Neuria

[HalfDarkShadow]

1 hour ago, Hekovashi said:

Concept looks very thin, ingame model doesn't. Dress is just a disaster, only colors and overall silhouette somewhat correct, maybe. Maybe i'm am blind or something.

In other hand recent oberon skin looks EXACT THE SAME as concept, 1:1, and for me he seems like harder to model.

  Reveal hidden contents

Banshee skin is a failure, that he should be ashamed off. But he should be proud about oberon, or saryn, or trin, or rhino.

I'm pretty bummed out as well that nothing seemed to have been improved on since when they first teased her "rough" mesh. The nuances are what got to me really; no wiring around her helmet to her chest where the vinyl is supposed to be (its there right? I couldn't tell on the screenshots since the random colours Rebecca hit were white so I can't tell if its there or not). The nice lace pattern that was originally on her thigh-highs were also omitted, and I have no idea what was going on with the back end of the dress during the devstream, (guessing it was just bugging out), but I'm hoping it wasn't her noticeably larger hips/bottom protruding out causing the end of the dress to stick out like that. You can also see it in the screenshots in the OP, but can't really tell if though in the screenshot was when Rebecca was spinning her around, which causes cloth to do some peculiar things (Equinox anyone?).

Either way, I've gone into detail months ago my other issues (mostly in regards to respecting an artists creation, generally speaking, and trying to balance that out when bringing those creations to life within other mediums without changing it in such a way, where it could feel like there was some kind of agenda behind those alterations. Of course to clarify, for what it is, its fine, but my issue is how much (or how little) it ended up being comparing with every other concept art nailing it absolutely great and really bringing those creations, like I said, to life.

There's also the other half of what the folklore behind banshees are, and all that other jazz (just search banshee skin and my username, and you'll see an entire book of a reply I made about this whole thing months ago, going into, from an artist's perspective, how twisted, uniquely proportion designs such as the Loki skin, Rhino skin, and Trinity skin makes it for what it is, and how this skin seems to go against what it was and how it was represented to this, but meh).

Like I said, for what it is, if they want a one size too small, leather-tight wearing bdsm Warframe skin, all is good. Compliment or insult, take it as you will, but for the original haunting, ghostly aesthetic blending quite well with its cyber-esque influenced musical technologies, which was essentially in some or many ways been stripped of, it's not something I'm cool with or can get behind. Coupled in previously mentioned the highlighted details being completely missing as well, which were qualities that defined the skin (the wires/lace for example), despite every other skin before it (and after via Oberon) had all their nuances intact and unchanged there, brings up some questions.

CoRRh's entire post was explained very well, and my views more-or-less align with his/her.
That, or as I said, feel free to search my name and banshee skin for my post if you care to know my entire thoughts on the whole matter. Mostly artist's integrity/respect and design philosophies, so yeah lol.

But anyways, his last paragraph is pretty much my TLDR; version of my post here hahah,

48 minutes ago, CoRRh said:

In the end, it's my opinion on whether or not the skin is good. Personally, I think the skin is very well-made and I probably would have bought it without issue if the concept art didn't exist. My biggest problem is not with the skin itself, but with the difference between the skin and the concept art. The Concept Art captured the mythological banshee feel very well. It contrasted well from the original banshee skin and focused on the fact that the original didn't have really any mythological banshee aspects to it. Then, DE took away from that and made it more akin to the original. They had a shining example of how to make the Deluxe skin the best way and instead vouched to make something more similar to the original. I just can't get behind that. Similar isn't bad, but the fact that they could have made something more unique just irks me.

But either way, if it ends up still unchanged since its "rough" mesh, than I'm just going to skip out on this. Despite all my concerns previously mentioned, my reason isn't out of anger-like retaliation or anything like that. For what it is, its fine. Even if I'm one of the few, I just don't agree with how much was changed and how much was removed, and will respectfully "speak with my wallet", I suppose. No hard feelings, I'm sure many will enjoy it, and there's nothing wrong with that either. And I'm aware its just the artist in me with my thinking, but they respected the artist's creations for such a long time now, who has such a unique take on the Warframe aesthetic, and I want them to continue to respect that like they always have. But this time I don't feel as such (worst case scenario, the more extreme opinions from some could see it as disrespecting it, though I do not share this belief to clarify, since I have no context on the reasons for these changes). So at the end of the day for me, it's just a simple "I'm not really cool with how it turned out, so I'll skip out". To each their own they say haha.

Edited April 2, 2016 by HalfDarkShadow

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

1 minute ago, Neuria said:

It's not me that has a problem with the new skin, though I'm personally happier with not standing on her tip-toes; that's probably just because when I see myself running in to battle, it would really come off more as a hindrance more than anything. Coming from someone who's worn high heels and all... I mean, tip-toes isn't that different. Sure, in a lunge you're pushing off of the ball of your foot, but to stay like that 24/7 would kill your balance and off-set a lot of mobility. ....But uh, yeah, nit-picking, heheh.

Ah, good point. I'll admit I didn't mean to come of as rude or condescending in way shape or form, but thanks for emphasizing the fact that you don't really have a problem with it, but can relate to others disdain of Banshee's new skin, which is an achievement all on it's own.

Honestly, I can't imagine how high-heels must make people feel. I've worn boots that have had their soles melted and stick to the asphalt more than I would have liked, yet I just can't imagine essentially walking on stilts.

[Neuria]

16 minutes ago, (XB1)Graysmog said:

Ah, good point. I'll admit I didn't mean to come of as rude or condescending in way shape or form, but thanks for emphasizing the fact that you don't really have a problem with it, but can relate to others disdain of Banshee's new skin, which is an achievement all on it's own.

Honestly, I can't imagine how high-heels must make people feel. I've worn boots that have had their soles melted and stick to the asphalt more than I would have liked, yet I just can't imagine essentially walking on stilts.

It's all good, and you didn't come off as either!

And heels can hurt at first, but once you get used to them they're not so bad, just annoying to run in lol x)

Edited April 2, 2016 by Neuria

[arch111]

I am going to speculate something here, since the I fested ship was not mentioned in the stream.

They did however say that Excalibur Umbra resease is shaping up nicely and that it will be a nice surprise.

This made me think that the two are connected. And that the lore behind the warframes that they have said is coming,  will be tied into that as well.

[Duduminador]

Mostly reposting from the Devstream 72 at Livestream section:

So... The one thing that Makes Volt be able to catch up to abilities like Exalted Bladed and Hysteria is going to be forcebly shared...
Well, that's the thing, I don't want to share it with already overpowered frames. I do share this buff on captures, sabotages, excavations, some times on survivals and defense, never on invasions or exterminations. I had control over that by simply decreasing the range and using speed close or not to them, but now I'm obligated to leave some kinda of gate they can just walk by and leech my buff whenever they want?

Well if I'm gonna have no control over that anymore, why not make Excalibur leave another 3 copies of exalted blade on the ground? Why not make Ash allow other tennos to join the bladestorm? If I'm gonna be forced to share my buff with them, force them to share their buffs with me. Now, getting a overload rework but losing control over who gets (Shocking) Speed, I'd rather leave Volt as he is. This rework is great. But not for Volt.

Small suggestion: the gate thing could actually fit Limbo very well.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Duduminador
grammar

[HalfDarkShadow]

49 minutes ago, Neuria said:

"Edit: Also, I don't get the positive majorities I mentioned from thin-air. In Relays, in Region chat, and just general talk; it's mostly positive for the skin. (At least from what all I and my friends have seen.)

Apologies since I don't know the entire context of your conversation, but it sounds like you (or who you're talking to) is describing confirmation bias. You can do a quick search if you're unfamiliar with the term (or feel free to ask as well!).

But this does remind me of Saryn's Revisited updated, and that entire week straight playing in-game, which it seemed generally positive. I was pretty happy to see more Saryn's in higher level missions, the cool builds people were trying out and sharing with via Region chat (and my alliance as well). Honestly, I would never assume that a mass amount of people jumping to conclusions after the night of release would happen. But the moment I hopped online to the forums about....hmm, maybe after 2 ish weeks? I've never seen such polarizing opinions about her in a long while, probably since Limbo's issues (still needing to be addressed), or when they changed Frost's bubble for the first time (boy, were those "fun" times haha).
With that situation though, I did feel bad for those who did take the time to use her for more than just an hour, took the effort to do the research and the number crunching, trying out a variety of different ways to build her now, and actually having an informed opinion and real criticisms and concerns of her; just being completely drowned out by.....well, everything else lol.

But digressions aside, basically it's a bit hard to get a good idea on general reception so early on, and all that really has any real validity behind it, is how well the product in question sells. In this case, this skin. Of course we wont ever get numers for that, but as far as the purpose of skins, other than variety and the fun-factor, is to sell it for those who want to purchase it. From that respect, you can at least get some idea how well a skin is received since money talks, or so they say lol.

I hope that made somewhat some sense! It's almost 5am here, so pardon any confusion x)

Edited April 2, 2016 by HalfDarkShadow

[Neuria]

5 minutes ago, HalfDarkShadow said:

Apologies since I don't know the entire context of your conversation, but it sounds like you (or who you're talking to) is describing confirmation bias. You can do a quick search if you're unfamiliar with the term (or feel free to ask as well!).

But this does remind me of Saryn's Revisited updated, and that entire week straight playing in game, it seemed generally positive, was pretty happy to see more Saryn's in higher level missions, the cool builds people were trying out and sharing with via Region chat (and my alliance as well). But the moment I hopped online to the forums about....hmm, maybe after 2 ish weeks? I've never seen such polarizing opinions about her in a long while, probably since Limbo's issues still needing to be address, or when they changed Frost's bubble for the first time (boy, were those "fun" times haha).

 

But digressions aside, basically it's a bit hard to get a good idea on general reception so early on, and all that really has any real validity behind it, is how well the product in question sells. In this case, this skin. Of course we wont ever get numers for that, but as far as the purpose of skins, other than variety and the fun-factor, is to sell it for those who want to purchase it. From that respect, you can at least get some idea how well a skin is received since money talks, or so they say lol.

I hope that made somewhat some sense! It's almost 5am here, so pardon any confusion x)

Well.. If Relays, Region Chat, the Stream chats since its been announced too, actually, and general talk I hear about it isn't a good gauge of how receptive people are, I would very much like to know where folk get their numbers/ideas of community reception in terms of "Is it positive or negative"? I've seen mixed opinions here and there, of course, like anything really. But the loudest was just about her being 'fat'. Even then, for every 1 negative comment I hear 10 positive.

 

Once more though, this is just me and my personal experiences. For all I know, when I turn my back or go offline, all the positive people die and every negative person gets a megaphone... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯   Either way, as long as people can be civil, I don't care lol.

[texrei]

6 hours ago, Neuria said:

These must be the same people who try and say Beyoncé is fat, when the reality is, they're just not used to seeing a woman with some meat on her bones, and are too accustomed to the Runway Model niche of being nigh anorexic to achieve "beauty".

 

Personally i don't like new Banshee but very like Beyonce. This argument about "stop watching anime and start looking at the real women" fails because your meat-girl doesn't look real, she's not.. solid (homogeneous, consistent. Sorry, i can't pick the right word). Damn, every piece of her doesn't match to others, her general look doesn't match the feel of frame that rely on it's powers instead of body strength.

 

[Neuria]

6 minutes ago, texrei said:

Personally i don't like new Banshee but very like Beyonce. This argument about "stop watching anime and start looking at the real women" fails because your meat-girl doesn't look real, she's not.. solid (homogeneous, consistent. Sorry, i can't pick the right word). Damn, every piece of her doesn't match to others, her general look doesn't match the feel of frame that rely on it's powers instead of body strength.

 

I wasn't the one who did the ad hom towards anime watchers.

As for consistency, the only real anatomical difference comes from the thickness of her midsection. - No one however, said that the dress was skin-tight. People seem to think that everything is skin-tight, which I guess is one way I can understand their confusion. The dress actually flares up in the back too.. (see during the devstream.) But she's always had hips, it's just her armor that tricked some folk's eyes in to believing otherwise.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Neuria

[VoidNomade]

7 hours ago, Naith said:

Rofl.

I didn't argue anywhere that they do perfect designs, the opposite in fact. I've also said that generally people seek perfection in video games - which can potentially be a problem like here - while in this case the designers have tried to move away from that view.

Variety - that's still going to be people's opinions, regardless of whether they focus on one point about it or not. That's irrelevant. It again falls into what I've said about people generally looking for some sort of perfection, if there's going to be something which clearly stands out and goes against that view of course people are going to latch onto that. You don't need variety in negative opinions and because they're repeating themselves that still doesn't mean it's any more right. I'm just saying that some people are going to like the design, some people are not. Just because the latter is more vocal that doesn't validate their claims and neither does it invalidate the other portions feelings.

Uh... I can't really recall a time when they've backed down in regards to artistic design apart from Chroma's incident. Was there another I've forgotten?

Fair enough about the perfection part i was just confused because it didn´t make sense in the context for me.

The variety thing; you´re talking about "just because vocal .. - doesn´t validate their claims" one simple question than: how does a group of people validate their claims in an online community? It´s not even like the critic isn´t even non-constructive when i look in the feedback sections of art design. So how does this group validate their claims without being vocal?

Also we could play the game the other way around, just because a group of people like the design doesn´t validate their claims and neither does it invalidate the other portions feelings. So we are back at zero.^^

With the last sentence about chroma i meant that people, if they´re having a negative attitude towards a frames design, always pin point exactly one, two points about that frame. They´re pretty in line with each other.

[VoidNomade]

10 minutes ago, Neuria said:

I wasn't the one who did the ad hom towards anime watchers.

As for consistency, the only real anatomical difference comes from the thickness of her midsection. - No one however, said that the dress was skin-tight. People seem to think that everything is skin-tight, which I guess is one way I can understand their confusion. The dress actually flares up in the back too.. (see during the devstream.) But she's always had hips, it's just her armor that tricked some folk's eyes in to believing otherwise.

Yup. Two things makes her looks "fat" ; because people have the concept art in mind and because of the skirt.

I really don´t like how the skirt falls because it´s negatively emphasizes her body.

[Kidkilla]

I really don't see what all the fuss is about ref Banshees skin, the star chart etc. I like the Banshee skin - yes a lot chunkier than default but I like it. It's a bit different to simply a new colour set. 

The only concern I have is the passives - I'm hoping they have some synergy with the frames e.g. Frost has warm jacket AND ice Spring, because those passives would make sense, ditto Wukong having an extra 10% damage from staff based weapons alá Excalibur and swords. On the subject of Wukong, I'd appreciate it if DE showed him some love. He has so much potential but a few things hold him back, if you look at how Inaro is presented there was a clear theme that was stuck to and translated to a coherent playing style. 

[ComfyOlivia]

1 hour ago, Neuria said:

"P.S. - You can't please everyone."

 

Pretty much my only response to all that, but I'm happy you cared enough to break down proper criticism of where you stand rather than leave off with "I don't like it because I don't like it."

 

Edit: Also, I don't get the positive majorities I mentioned from thin-air. In Relays, in Region chat, and just general talk; it's mostly positive for the skin. (At least from what all I and my friends have seen.)

"'P.S. - You can't please everyone.'"

True enough. Either way, I have an abundance of plat and will likely end up enjoying the skin anyway. Mynki does good work.

 

On the edit, I did actually do a count on the thread for positive remarks versus negative it was about 14 for, 9 against, and 6 either on the fence or I couldn't tell what they were with. The Reddit thread was more divided with most liking it. Generally, I'd mention vocal minority and such, but the results are close enough that the same could be said about either side. In addition, it seems you acknowledge this possible factor, so you've saved me the time of explaining it. w00t

 

1 hour ago, Neuria said:

I wasn't the one who did the ad hom towards anime watchers.

As for consistency, the only real anatomical difference comes from the thickness of her midsection. - No one however, said that the dress was skin-tight. People seem to think that everything is skin-tight, which I guess is one way I can understand their confusion. The dress actually flares up in the back too.. (see during the devstream.) But she's always had hips, it's just her armor that tricked some folk's eyes in to believing otherwise.

On this, my problem was the fact that the "dress" has unatural crevices in it. I'm not sure how to explain it exactly, but it just seems like less of a dress and more of a shaped piece of armor now. 

[Valiant]

1 hour ago, VoidNomade said:

Fair enough about the perfection part i was just confused because it didn´t make sense in the context for me.

The variety thing; you´re talking about "just because vocal .. - doesn´t validate their claims" one simple question than: how does a group of people validate their claims in an online community? It´s not even like the critic isn´t even non-constructive when i look in the feedback sections of art design. So how does this group validate their claims without being vocal?

Also we could play the game the other way around, just because a group of people like the design doesn´t validate their claims and neither does it invalidate the other portions feelings. So we are back at zero.^^

With the last sentence about chroma i meant that people, if they´re having a negative attitude towards a frames design, always pin point exactly one, two points about that frame. They´re pretty in line with each other.

Bringing it back around to where it started, is that ultimately that you were originally implying that because XYZ people were complaining about it and one specific point that legitimizes a reason to change her design, when it currently seems that DE aren't going to be altering the design. Plus that due to people repeating themselves it means something is 'wrong'',

Also, as for your comment about validation, naturally, as I said, going to get a variety of opinions especially when it comes to art. That's why just because some people dislike the design some others are going to like it.

[VoidNomade]

1 minute ago, Naith said:

Bringing it back around to where it started, is that ultimately that you were originally implying that because XYZ people were complaining about it and one specific point that legitimizes a reason to change her design, when it currently seems that DE aren't going to be altering the design. Plus that due to people repeating themselves it means something is 'wrong'',

Also, as for your comment about validation, naturally, as I said, going to get a variety of opinions especially when it comes to art. That's why just because some people dislike the design some others are going to like it.

I´m just wondering why i can tell every time they release a new art exactly the points that will negatively pop up in threads just by looking at the designs. This is such a obvious process i´m wondering why DE does it time and time again. As i said earlier i believe i know why they do it because it´s their way of uniqueness and their artistic identity. I just wished they would once do something for the vocal group that seems to be the same every time about the same things every time and that makes it valid for them(!). Just releasing a straight up frame skin design with nothing "werd" in it. I hope you get the "werd".^^

[Valiant]

40 minutes ago, VoidNomade said:

I´m just wondering why i can tell every time they release a new art exactly the points that will negatively pop up in threads just by looking at the designs. This is such a obvious process i´m wondering why DE does it time and time again. As i said earlier i believe i know why they do it because it´s their way of uniqueness and their artistic identity. I just wished they would once do something for the vocal group that seems to be the same every time about the same things every time and that makes it valid for them(!). Just releasing a straight up frame skin design with nothing "werd" in it. I hope you get the "werd".^^

Yeah I understand what you mean by weird. I also get what peoples complaints have been with the previous deluxe's (most end up being obvious as you've said) but it just seems they aren't gonna bother.

Just have to see what the next lot bring, no idea what it'll be, could be Zephyr with large wings (awesome) but I need Frost, badly.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Volt still looks so slow when normally running. If anything please buff his base running stats, the guy astetically looks like he can keep up with faster running Warframes without the booster power. But in reality he's chugging behind the team like a Rhino without any speed mods. 

[FmV01]

lol that skin

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

[sotvrna]

Ok, so last thing I'm gonna add to the whole banshee skin conversation:
I see a lot of people's critiscism is based on the skin being too different from the concept. Well, I agree. It's very different indeed. But the thing is, concept art is just that, it's not set in stone. If it works, it will be ported as is, if not it will be changed. Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely love that concept, it looks amazing and nothing will take it's artistic value away from it, but it just doesn't fit Warframe enough. Frames are made of metal (and infested tissue? I don't even know at this point anymore), and that concept art looks like a human being wearing a fancy helmet. So they probably had to change some things to make it look more like an actual Warframe, like adding more metallic and plastic textures and changing some elements around.

Edited April 2, 2016 by AntifaHooligan

[(PSN)AnishAnkit]

18 hours ago, AM-Bunny said:

 The coming update has 20+ pages of update notes

My god......

[mPego]

mmm fat banshee :(