[To DE] Banshee's Deluxe Skin - An Open Letter to the Art Team

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

If you frequent the forums, you are aware of the heated arguments and frowned brows amongst many patches around the warframe community revolving around the body type and shape of the banshee deluxe skin releasing this April. Because of this many people have been going around in posts saying "ah she is fat" others saying "ah it does not match the concept" and of course the "omg stop fat shaming crowd".

But in this post I hope to remove all of those irrelevant topics, and give you guys (the art team) a clear, concise and unbiased (as much as I can) case as to why people are so flustered over the banshee deluxe skin. In this post I will point out all the qualms that the community has with the skin to the tiniest complaint. This is not to give you guys a hard time, as an aspiring artist at my local college, I understand the drive of further improving my technique and my creations. Although since you guys have a much broader stroke and a larger audience than I ever will as a student. I hope that this post will neatly point out the issues that people are having over this skin, so if possible further improvements are made. Also many people want to buy this skin, they really do, and they wouldn't be complaining if they didn't care about it. This is merely an act of love by myself and maybe if the community approves of it, the community as well.

I dont mean to start any flame wars, so allow me to just equip my flame repellent mod on:

Now let us begin shall we:

A) Lore

Around two months ago Francois Cannels a independent artist, creator of the trinity strega skin, released a banshee deluxe skin concept art. This would later be posted on reddit and of course creating the hype amongst the community

 

This would be the first iteration of the concept art which would later finalize into this

You can clearly see why Francois work was praised by many members of the warframe community.

Later on, Digital Extremes modeled the skin and it would be show on devstream #68, this is where it gets messy

The model freaked out warframe players and were basically angry over the fact that the 3d model did not retain the sleek features of the concept. Creating many forum posts like "would you prefer a thinner banshee skin?" on the warframe forums

 

The same model with animations would be shown on devstream #72 and with no visible changes compared to the previous devstream this created more pointless controversy and bickering.

B) The Issues

We will now examine why the community is upset over this, hopefully I will go into as much detail as I can.

B-1) Thickness of her robes

If players use predominately female/male frames with dresses, cloth, kilts, etc... , you may have noticed that in most cases cloth goes from the hips/ waist down where the breezing animations begin. Although (and i think this is why many people got excited over this) banshee's concept showed the significance of a full body robe/dress. So clearing we were expecting use of warframe's cloth physics to create a full body robe. Another thing to point out was that the robe was implied to be thin cloth. Which is none of the traits that were shown in the devstream. Here is a representation of what we have been shown for the 3d model.

Now this is important because this is probably where the "oh shes fat" stands out. You can clearly see that banshee's dress is thick, it's not thin at all. This gives the illusion that she is "fat" but in reality she is not. Her physique is perfectly normal. The issue at hand here is the thickness and form of the dress that is creating the illusion of precieved largeness. This is a huge problem for this particular subject because it's clear that the artist's intention was to make the dress very thin and sleek, but because of the modeling it is not. 

Now one may say "well maybe the engine cant support thin cloth physics" and to that I answer you are completely wrong. What if I told you that there is a clear example in game of thin cloth physics. The Izvara Syndana, if you own this syndana I implore you to check it out in game or, refer to this video by " Lilliannette " who showcases it.

It is now clear that Warframe's engine can support dramatically thinner cloth physics, the issue her is why weren't these cloth physics applied to the entirety of the deluxe skin's dress. Why is the dress so thick when the concept implies other wise.

B-2) The animation of her robes

If you refer to the devstream 72 video, at the time stamp I provided. You will see rebecca play around with the animation and cloth physics of banshee's dress. And if you observe closely the dress is only wavy from the waist down. But if you observe the concept (refer to segment A), because of 1) the lines that run down from the breast area to waist 2) the implied break in the 3d model at the waist (no break in the concept) to imply that there is a divide when there shouldn't. The dress is clearly supposed to be a full body dress, there is no denying it whatsoever, you can tell from the concept art that the artist clearly intended to make this a wavy full body dress or else he would of added information explaining the contrary:

Based on the devstream this are the areas which seem to be animated

 

And this is what people seem to want animated

And I can understand where people are coming from when complaining about this. Many frames follow this fashion of "waist down dress-like physics". But it seems to be a repeating trend fror many frames. Atlas, Ivara, Trinity Prime and many other frames just have these waist down cloth physics. I'm not saying that its not cool, but it would be nice if there were more uses of the newly implement cloth physics and banshee's concept provided an avenue for that change. Which is why I sincerely  suggest that you guys change it.

C-1) Upper Shoulder Area

Referring to the concept art in segment A. You can clearly see that there is a divide between the actual dress and some sort of separate cloth on the skin, based on the variation of color on the skin. This is important, that change of color indicates a change in fabric or cloth and in the 3d model it seems that the modelers unified the entire piece to the dress. This in my opinion reduces the value and detail of the skin, people are spending around 16$ CDN worth of plat for this. For people to want this skin, they want to be able to play around with it. Simplistic designs are always welcome but in this case, it's clear that that divide is mandatory. Because as we can see in the 3d model and product the skin becomes monochrome. I know you guys are limited to a few tint masks, but there has to be a way to either make it fit or simply add another color option. We should not be limiting our artists to 5 tint masks, if some frames need 6 or 7 then 6 or 7 should be provided to them.

In essence that shoulder area thats colored darker than the rest of the dress needs to be a seperate area to color. This is another qualm that many people have with this skin.

D-1) Materials

Its clear in the concept that the robes are silky but not shiny. Because of this the majority of the skin is a plastic sort of shine. This is a huge complaint that I see often concerning this. We have PBR now, it should be hell of a lot easier to support more texturing types other than glossy plastics yet here we are now. This is also EXTREMELY relevant for the stocking areas. (If you want to see what I mean refer to the 3d model or even the devstream link above)

Im my opinion, it would be much more intuitive to get a more matte look to the stocking and maybe a more materialistic look to the dress. Mesa is the best example for this:

She's not this glowing disco ball. She' nice, matte and the reflections are very discrete. Once again the Evolution engine have proven to successfully generate not only thin cloth physics but matte-like textures. I believe that using mesa as a reference for this skin would solve many of the issues that pockets of the community have.

TL;DR less shiny more poppy darks and matte.

E-1) Nitpicks / Smaller Changes

1) There is details missing on the face

2) The headphone wires are gone, i don't think people care if they clip they just want them there, because seriously they look damn awesome.

3) Bigger more rounder headphones. (yea people were bottom of the barrel for this one)

4) More detail on tights. Its all black in 3d model.

5) THE ARMS, give choice between DJ arm and Spiky Arm :(

F) Final Words

This is my case on how using some of the assets we already have, to make the banshee deluxe skin more desirable and more in tune to Francois' concept. Francois you are a great artist, your deluxe skins are fantastic and I hope you make more in the future. I hope that this post keeps the intention and integrity of the original concept. Please Digital Extremes, it's not a question of "fat "skinny". It's a question of doing it right, I love all of your warframes regardless of body type, they are all pleasing to the eye but this should not pass. I think many players would be overjoyed if you reworked the 3d model of this skin it's really nice and if the following problems are fixed, it will be a guaranteed buy for me, hell Ill even gift another one to a friend.

So please DE from the bottom of my heart even if you have to postpone the release, I don't care. Ill wait another 2 months if I have to, but please do it right.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Eureka.seveN
Change 1: Added #4 for nitpicks II Change 2: Added visible before / after pics II Change 3: Added formats + bold on titles II Change 4 : Added Forum Link II Change #5 some corrections II Change #6 added 5th nitpick

[kubbi]

Thank you kind sir. I completely agree with everything you said in your post. I've got nothing else to add. *applauses*

I really hope DE reads this and will give Banshee the work she needs to look as close as possible to the concept art.

[Nocturnex]

So the rhetoric that I seen in the whole Tracer debacle is being spread here. I'm no artist, however I do know that, when the artist's original intent is altered to cater the sensibilities of others, you are disrespecting the artist and his work. Francois created a concept art for Banshee and the 3D model is a severe disconnect with the concept art. Banshee looked good in the Devstream...so far. It needs more time to fill in the details so that it's more close to the concept art. Vote with your Platinum, Tenno.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

15 minutes ago, -cS-Nocturnex said:

So the rhetoric that I seen in the whole Tracer debacle is being spread here. I'm no artist, however I do know that, when the artist's original intent is altered to cater the sensibilities of others, you are disrespecting the artist and his work. Francois created a concept art for Banshee and the 3D model is a severe disconnect with the concept art. Banshee looked good in the Devstream...so far. It needs more time to fill in the details so that it's more close to the concept art. Vote with your Platinum, Tenno.

Yes but for example, if your job is reproduction another example would be reproduction studio artist. The goal is to reproduce the concept as accurately as possible. And also its the final product they havet changed it since devsteam 68.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

[kajiss1]

6 hours ago, Eureka.seveN said:

I hope that this post keeps the intention and integrity of the original concept. Please Digital Extremes, it's not a question of "fat "skinny". It's a question of doing it right,

i`m with you i think they need to look back at the 3d and the concept and have a second look, and make the concept justice. 

[Censium]

I applaud you. This was one of my issues with the skin, it doesn't have the same slick design look that the concept art does. I never brought it up because It in my own mind would seem like I'm fat shaming, and I didn't want to fight that battle, or risk actually shaming someone.

Good job with making a professional post stating our shared opinions without making it biased, or rude

If they don't change it, it's not a huge deal, but I'd like to see more homage to the concept.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Censium
&Amp fix

[Gripheon]

There Is an aspect as to why people (including me) think she is "fat" i think. or nevertheless fat-ER than the original.

and apart from the weird grooves (that make me think fat rolls or cellulite for some reason) and the rubber skirt i think its prominently the waist.

You can see in the central pic that the new banshees skin waist seems wider (as well as the lower portion of her torso) than the original. and maybe her legs to a lesser degree but that's up to personal interpretation considering the "plating" on the original obscuring it. but that's my take from what I've seen.

Another thing i've noticed that has been discussed before is the disparity between the first concept and the final. more specifically the arm.

The first concept had more of a ghost-like theme to it with the arm which (to me) seemed like a nod to the mythical banshee theme mixed in with the DJ theme that is also involved. however they have changed that for a more solely DJ oriented appearance. that to me is more of a personal taste thing but i am going to go out on a limb and say that i prefer the original.

All the other gripes i had are portrayed in the OP very well. it seems as though the modelers interpretation of the concept is a swing-and-a-miss type situation.

Spoiler

Has anyone noticed there seems to be a significant turnout of modelers when it comes to these skins. Palatine, Feyarch, Orphid and Strega are very VERY close interpretations of the concepts (and even have drastically different material maps that make sense and accentuate well) and look incredible however banshees premium took a nosedive into looking almost nothing like concept taking an otherwise a would be amazing armor into something off-putting to relatively a lot people here. (Bless the individuals that took their time to do this armor, really i have no qualms, however they can do better. i know they can.)

So for now the premium skin pulls a 5/10 to an otherwise 10/10 concept. DE would get a load more purchases of this skin if they took the time to fix it.

Edit: Added a skin name i forgot to the spoiler.

Edited April 3, 2016 by xXZEROCSXx

[akira_him]

[NightmareT12]

I'm just going to go over one of the technical inquiries you've made: The clothes being a separate attachment from the main body. In other words, physics added into a model partially.

For some reason I do not know really (but everyone can just put 1+1 together) DE isn't able to add physics to a part of the model and not the other one. It's basically the issue that's been holding Trinity, Frost and Volt's clothes for so long. Trinity is the easiest, because her skirt can be made a separate piece from the main mesh. Volt has this kind of line where the body gives a good point at which attach the future clothes, but Frost, who has the jacket a part of its own main body, is impossible to do unless they pull off an Oberon, so as to speak. So it would be a messy job to do in all honesty. (otherise tails, loinclothes and the such would be already integrated into the main model itself.)

For the rest, I do not dislike the skin in its current state but I can see why people would want it changed, so I'm not going much into it. The fabric/material choice though... I'm pretty sure there must be an explanaition for that but I'd rather have someone from DE explain why it was chosen that way.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

33 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

I'm just going to go over one of the technical inquiries you've made: The clothes being a separate attachment from the main body. In other words, physics added into a model partially.

For some reason I do not know really (but everyone can just put 1+1 together) DE isn't able to add physics to a part of the model and not the other one. It's basically the issue that's been holding Trinity, Frost and Volt's clothes for so long. Trinity is the easiest, because her skirt can be made a separate piece from the main mesh. Volt has this kind of line where the body gives a good point at which attach the future clothes, but Frost, who has the jacket a part of its own main body, is impossible to do unless they pull off an Oberon, so as to speak. So it would be a messy job to do in all honesty. (otherise tails, loinclothes and the such would be already integrated into the main model itself.)

But at least for those particular frames it makes sense for them to have thicker robes.

But regardless you can easily make the model of the skin (AKA) her body and then model the dress over is as a sperate piece. Or use the top shoulder part as a main hanging point and the dress as that seperate piece. Its understandable when it comes to changing an original model but this is a built from sctratch concept, which is why I have to disagree with you there.

It would seem challenging to do. But I would rather have the skin not be released at all in its current condition, than to be released a subpar product. Just from the assets we have in the game already, Digital Extremes has proven to us that it can use thin cloth physics and matte PBR textures. If a little more work is required than so be it. It's not like its impossible to make dress physics, so I dont see why DE should get a free pass on this. They clearly have the budget and support and the talent so I know they can do it.

[SilentCynic]

As someone who picked up Banshee as a first (not counting starter) frame way back when Warframe hit open beta and has been spend countless hours playing as said frame, I wholeheartedly agree.

In my eyes, the primary considerations are the fabric's textures and effects (That the clothing seems more like segmented plastic or metal than actual fabric) and the overall stout design.

Judging by her name, Banshee hearkens to the mythological banshees present in folklore: wispy, ghostly figures, often in tattered dress, signalling someone's death with their cry. Indeed, this is a motif that I, and many others, feel is well-captured in the original concept art we have been shown in the past. Flowing curves and sleek contours contrast with the tattered fabric of her dress to match the ghostliness of her namesake.

What irks me most is that the previous topic on this subject has been closed, only to reopen upon the skin's release, by which time it will likely be far too late to persuade DE to make any alterations. This is further hampered by the fact that the most common complaint is how bulky this deluxe skin's attire is, an argument often confused or compared to asking for greater "sexualization" of warframes, which is a misrepresentation of the point that serves to drag it into dismissal and obscurity.

Ultimately, to turn this long-awaited skin into a masterpiece, DE only needs to do two things:

1. Alter the textures on Banshee's attire to match the excellent cloth feeling that many other new frames capture so well.
2. Alter the overall profile of her build to be somewhat more slim, in keeping not only with the original Banshee's slender build, but with the lore she's based on.

I firmly believe that DE's more than capable of making these (I dare say necessary) changes, though the lack of any changes since we first saw the 3D model leaves me with little hope for my favourite frame getting a good skin.

Edited April 4, 2016 by SilentCynic

[SerenitT]

I think that my biggest complaint, which takes into account all of the above points that were listed is the loss of character identity. To me, it just doesn't look or feel like banshee anymore. In this game, we don't have very much to characterize our frames with in terms of identity. The frames themselves do not talk or have a personality attached to them, they don't hear, look, smell, or react in any sort of organic way that say your standard NPC can in an mmo, be that in a scripted event or even a cutscene. All we really have to create a warframe's identity is really just their abilities and how they look. When something such as "how they look" is changed to such a degree, that is arguable to say that half of the character gone.

It feels very strange to see this drastic change in banshee, because it really hasn't happened in any other frame. Saryn, for example, has what I like to call a 'poisonous' look to her. Between all her skins (orchid-standard-prime) they keep this element of character with her, though in my eyes, they all look markedly different and distinctive from each other. But back to Banshee, I can really see what the devs were aiming for, and the concept is absolutely brilliant. I understand how difficult it is and how unlikely it is for changes to be made at this point, but I just can't fall in line with the skin as it currently is. To see how amazing the concept was, only to be left with the skin's current state leaves a bitter taste in my mouth simply because I know how amazing it could be. But at the end of the day, I'll just have to let my platinum do the speaking for me and hope that they are saving up their real cookies for Banshee prime in a year or so.

[K0bra]

She dont look like Banshee more like a Fatshee. :D

I was shocked when i saw it in the livestream.

Edited April 4, 2016 by K0bra

[LoopStricken]

On 02/04/2016 at 8:25 PM, Eureka.seveN said:

<snip>

 

On 03/04/2016 at 6:07 AM, xXZEROCSXx said:

<snip>

 

I agree entirely.

[Xaurian]

This needs far more attention.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

18 minutes ago, Swampster said:

This needs far more attention.

Feel free to spread it, even make a video about it if you wish :)

 

[VampirePirate]

i wonder what Francois has to say about all this.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Just now, VampirePirate said:

i wonder what Francois has to say about all this.

It would be really cool to hear his thoughts :)
 

I personally love his work so I hope that this post is in good faith for him.

[Flameslicer]

I have nothing more to say than that I wholeheartedly agree with everything said in this thread so far.

[AM-Bunny]

Whether you love it or hate it, the skin seems to be more or less complete.

Historically, I can't think of a single time DE has re-visited any of their Warframe models except to add PBR or cloth physics.

You're probably just wasting your energy. Still, I appreciate you for trying to organize a concise and coherent position.

[(PSN)Cwellann]

I've gotta agree with Bunny that it's probably, unfortunately a waste of time.  But, OP, I completely agree with everything you said.  Thank you for actually taking the time to break all that down.

[Doom_Bunny]

Looking at the previous skins there are only minor discrepancies (mostly just in fine detail which is fair going from drawing to model) between the concept and the final product. Nearly all of the skins follow the shape of the original model besides from Trinity's and Oberon's legs. However here it's just a wonder as to what happened. The model doesn't fit either the concept or the original and it's no longer just fine detail that is missing from the final product.

[--Q--uaint]

I don’t really have anything to add to this discussion other than that I support OP’s point wholeheartedly. I've been really enjoying playing Banshee recently, but this is a real disappointment so I'm likely to not be getting this skin if it comes out in the state it was last displayed in.

[Zeus154]

I will mention that I had made a thread (it's locked, pending skin release), about the model in it's t-pose/beta phase.

Now, I am not here to brag or anything, but you have essentially pinpointed a fair majority of the qualms that I have with the skin. With the thread getting more than ten pages in length, with some meaningful and arbitrary posts, I will say that the model seen in game -- in the devstream -- didn't really take away some of the feedback here. While yes, it was a general discussion about the skin, there are some areas within the thread that addressed the issue of Banshee being rather fuller and different than the concept.

I am not here to bash on the artists, but I think the skin might need a little bit of a makeover. Taking some of those ideas you have mentioned, will surely be a good improvement.

[IfritKajiTora]

I was realy hoping of her first spiky hand, and then They shown model I was like WTF diferent hand and why she is so fat?!, and see the art that they have new version -_- with different hand. Helmet is better but the hand nope, which was for me the most cool thing on this art.