[Devstream 73 topic Discussion] Post-Forma Polarized Weapon Rank linked with Mastery Rank. Best Concept for Mastery Rank progression so far! why think it over, DE?!

[Troll_Logic]

 

1 minute ago, Crewell said:

You are arguing semantics. To you it may not be a grind. For me with a limited amount of time to play each week, it is a grind. 

With my current play time availability it takes a couple weeks of 'normal' play to get a new frame or weapon from unranked to 30. Sometimes I go faster, and sometimes slower. Hence on the weapons I polarize, I really don't want the process to drag. 

If it takes you weeks to get a weapon or warframe from 0 to 30 then you need to examine your playing strategy.  I don't mean that as an insult.  I mean that literally.

All a player needs to level quickly is an epic primary and secondary.  That's it.

Let's say you want to build a seven forma amprex.  Ok, equip your epic secondary that will carry you to wave twenty on a T4 mission.  Now use only that weapon on every mission.  You're still leveling just as fast as you would normally.  While you're doing that, forma your melee as well.  Now you're leveling two weapons at the same time and you're not playing at a disadvantage either.

Don't use the weapon you're leveling.  That's really bad.

[Currilicious]

36 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

Don't use the weapon you're leveling.  That's really bad.

This is why folks are less than happy about the current mechanism.

To efficiently level your gun, you holster it.

Hence as long as you have things to level, you'll rarely be at full strength.

[Crewell]

50 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

 

If it takes you weeks to get a weapon or warframe from 0 to 30 then you need to examine your playing strategy.  I don't mean that as an insult.  I mean that literally.

All a player needs to level quickly is an epic primary and secondary.  That's it.

Let's say you want to build a seven forma amprex.  Ok, equip your epic secondary that will carry you to wave twenty on a T4 mission.  Now use only that weapon on every mission.  You're still leveling just as fast as you would normally.  While you're doing that, forma your melee as well.  Now you're leveling two weapons at the same time and you're not playing at a disadvantage either.

Don't use the weapon you're leveling.  That's really bad.

Again you don't know me. When I say it takes me weeks, it's because I get at most 10 hours of playtime in a week. Most of the time it's around half that or less. You are making (bad) presumptions about me not founded in reality. If I could play several hours a day I'd have no issues leveling quickly. I know where to go to level items. You are confusing real time with time played. Ask youself how many items go from 0-30 in 3-5 hours of play? That's my typical playtime with my current schedule.

You also say just do T4 20 wave defenses. IMO that is not normal play (your words). In fact it sounds very much like grinding. It's a step up from Draco, but not much of one. 

[Zeyez]

i didn't read everything, but this idea was binded with another one: that your holstered will received reduced amount of affinity

obviously, this will help the veterans, but will reduce the mastery leveling speed from the beginners

[Troll_Logic]

24 minutes ago, Crewell said:

Again you don't know me.

Don't be defensive.  Just reread what I wrote.

24 minutes ago, Crewell said:

You are making (bad) presumptions about me not founded in reality. If I could play several hours a day I'd have no issues leveling quickly. I know where to go to level items. You are confusing real time with time played. Ask youself how many items go from 0-30 in 3-5 hours of play? That's my typical playtime with my current schedule.

What I'm saying is that is doesn't matter about leveling.  Don't focus on leveling.  Use your other weapons.  Instead of going into a mission with your tricked out soma prime, boltor prime, or whatever your normal weapon is, use a secondary.  That way you are just as effective a player WHILE you are leveling your primary and/r melee and warframe.

I'm not telling you to grind to level.  What I'm saying is that you can be just as effective while you are leveling a weapon.

27 minutes ago, Crewell said:

You also say just do T4 20 wave defenses. IMO that is not normal play (your words).

Nope.  I said to equip a secondary that can carry you that far.  "Now use only that weapon on every mission."

 

Don't focus on the leveling.  Use an alternate that is just as effective and level quickly normally without handicapping yourself with a gimped formaed weapon.

 

BTW, if you really want to level fast, forma your warframe, primary or secondary, melee, and your epic primary or secondary and go with a group to T4 defense to wave 20.  You should easily level all three items to 30 with two missions.  But that is focusing on the leveling.

 

Just build an epic primary and secondary and level as normal with no handicap.  That's what I did.  Always be leveling something and usually two things while playing normally.

[Blamano]

 

Unlike this guy, I think a version of his idea could be implemented alongside the proposed MR change.  [Weapon Type] Mastery gets you +15% Affinity earned with [Weapon Type].

 

I can really get behind changes like this that make it easier to go through what you've already done 100 times, and this is the only way to start to eliminate Draco as a 'problem'.  A problem which I've learned hasn't really arisen from being an easy way to rank up, but because it's hard and oh so time consuming to rank up in the first place.  Players shouldn't have to feel like they need Draco because leveling up shouldn't be a constant uphill grind regardless of tenure with Warframe.

Tertiary: Unforma'd gear should match MR if the gear isn't eligible for MR gain.  I.e. If you sold a max ranked weapon, and crafted/bought it again, it should match your MR.

#MakeMasteryRankGreatAgain

[(PSN)L-B-H-100]

9 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

There is no grind to re-level a weapon or warframe.  None.  No grind.  No reason to use Draco.

You're going to play the game anyway, so just use another weapon.  If you've formaed a primary then just run missions with a epic secondary.  If you've formaed a secondary, then run your regular missions with an epic primary.  If you've formaed a melee weapon, then use your normal weapons.  If you've formaed a warframe, then just use your epic primary.

The only grind is players feeling like they're forced to go to Draco because they have to have that specific item back to 30 right now.

 

it is noted that DE may work on a system to prevent affinity share with polarized gear in your current loadout during a mission if this concept were to become apparent; forcing players to actually use their polarized weapons.

so too bad for draco players with a low mastery i guess.

so even if grind may not be apparent now, it will definitely be in the future.

[(PSN)L-B-H-100]

4 hours ago, Blamano said:

 

Unlike this guy, I think a version of his idea could be implemented alongside the proposed MR change.  [Weapon Type] Mastery gets you +15% Affinity earned with [Weapon Type].

 

I can really get behind changes like this that make it easier to go through what you've already done 100 times, and this is the only way to start to eliminate Draco as a 'problem'.  A problem which I've learned hasn't really arisen from being an easy way to rank up, but because it's hard and oh so time consuming to rank up in the first place.  Players shouldn't have to feel like they need Draco because leveling up shouldn't be a constant uphill grind regardless of tenure with Warframe.

Tertiary: Unforma'd gear should match MR if the gear isn't eligible for MR gain.  I.e. If you sold a max ranked weapon, and crafted/bought it again, it should match your MR.

#MakeMasteryRankGreatAgain

i would like it if we were to buy/build the same weapon twice it would match our mastery rank.

but i do not think that subjects such as affinity gain, resource gain, and the decrease of time should be link somehow with your mastery rank.

concepts like the one above seem far to difficult to work around and balance to keep warframe as a time and progress game.

the concept DE suggested will work exactly how it is described; a players post-polarized weapon/warframe rank will equal the players current Mastery Rank.

i really don't see a reason to make it any more difficult to work around with more numbers and percentages. DE already has a lot on their plate.

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

If forma give any kind of advantages as a MR or something like that this game will lost all sense , 10.000 squads in Draco, all ppl selling stuffs to buy formas and more Draco, Draco , Draco 

[(PSN)L-B-H-100]

3 hours ago, (PS4)xKAIOWAx said:

If forma give any kind of advantages as a MR or something like that this game will lost all sense , 10.000 squads in Draco, all ppl selling stuffs to buy formas and more Draco, Draco , Draco 

Draco will soon no longer be a way to gain easy affinity as stated by DE.

this is something that most visitors of this thread worry about, and i just want to make this clear.

DE stated that they don not want to limit their players to just one node for easy affinity gain. they want warframe players to specifically "have fun".

the Star Chart mission and map overhaul can and will fix these issues confirmed by DE, so that mission nodes such as draco is not the default route for a players long term goal.

anything related to Draco no longer applies in this discussion unless it is used as a specific issue toward affinity gain, which is why Star Chart is apparent in the first place.

Edited May 4, 2016 by (PS4)L-B-H-100

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

Draco was a exemple , but the point is, nobody will play the game, only farm for Formas xp 

[(PSN)L-B-H-100]

3 hours ago, (PS4)xKAIOWAx said:

Draco was a exemple , but the point is, nobody will play the game, only farm for Formas xp 

i don't see how someone could ignore the rest of the games content just for forma.

[Cortanis]

12 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

I honestly don't see a problem with how it is now and I'll tell you why.  People forma items to use correct?  No one formas something then puts it away. 

You have no idea how guilty I am of this. I've collected almost every prime that's come out except a handful of them and I've forma'd them to the point of being at least moderately useful. Ultimately, they all end up in my inventory just gathering dust. I wish I could at least display them in my ship. >.>

5 hours ago, (PS4)L-B-H-100 said:

Draco will soon no longer be a way to gain easy affinity as stated by DE.

this is something that most visitors of this thread worry about, and i just want to make this clear.

DE stated that they don not want to limit their players to just one node for easy affinity gain. they want warframe players to specifically "have fun".

the Star Chart mission and map overhaul can and will fix these issues confirmed by DE, so that mission nodes such as draco is not the default route for a players long term goal.

anything related to Draco no longer applies in this discussion unless it is used as a specific issue toward affinity gain, which is why Star Chart is apparent in the first place.

Oh how I wish this were true.... See, I've been around since around U6 or 7... back when the star chart was literally EXACTLY as what they're moving to but with out the content of the void and other additions going forward. What you're seeing in the star chart is just really the old one with a face lift. This is important for a few reasons. Primarily, their has always been a "Draco" at some stage or another. Once long ago, the infested actually had a set territory as well. The old "draco" then was infested def on the Corpus Ship. All you had were the infested funneling into three entrances and it became a game of mass cc and endurance. It was easy to spend a good 20-40 waves there and half way level a weapon.

Point is that their has always been a "draco" and always will be a "draco." If they kill Draco now, the community will only find another location/method to draco at.

[Artekkor]

On 01.05.2016 at 5:45 PM, MirageKnight said:

Why even reset the weapon to begin with? I think it's a bit silly that applying Forma makes you sudden forget the intricacies of how your weapon / 'frame works.

Inheard that IRL each soldier is given his own weapon, because despite everything every model has it's own little uniqir properties which soldier is supposed to get used to.

Applying forma means changing something inside an item, tempering with it.

So us suddenly not being able to use weapon effectivily makes sense because it's not us who forget stuff, the item simply works slightly differently.

Also if to take in consideration our origins as some kind of energy-transfering void beings... Maybe we are simply "warming up" our items? You know... Channel more and more stength into them with time, to avoid overcharging and burning them with void energy.

[(PSN)L-B-H-100]

10 hours ago, Cortanis said:

You have no idea how guilty I am of this. I've collected almost every prime that's come out except a handful of them and I've forma'd them to the point of being at least moderately useful. Ultimately, they all end up in my inventory just gathering dust. I wish I could at least display them in my ship. >.>

Oh how I wish this were true.... See, I've been around since around U6 or 7... back when the star chart was literally EXACTLY as what they're moving to but with out the content of the void and other additions going forward. What you're seeing in the star chart is just really the old one with a face lift. This is important for a few reasons. Primarily, their has always been a "Draco" at some stage or another. Once long ago, the infested actually had a set territory as well. The old "draco" then was infested def on the Corpus Ship. All you had were the infested funneling into three entrances and it became a game of mass cc and endurance. It was easy to spend a good 20-40 waves there and half way level a weapon.

Point is that their has always been a "draco" and always will be a "draco." If they kill Draco now, the community will only find another location/method to draco at.

back then, DE did not acknowledge Draco, or mission nodes like Draco.

now, they are specifically targeting not only Draco, but all missions considered as affinity mines.

you have no prof that Star Chart is going to be exactly the same as it is now. it does not matter how long you have played the game.

i am sorry that you have doubts, but most players hope for a change rather than just staying were we are now.

[MirageKnight]

6 hours ago, Artek94 said:

Inheard that IRL each soldier is given his own weapon, because despite everything every model has it's own little uniqir properties which soldier is supposed to get used to.

Applying forma means changing something inside an item, tempering with it.

So us suddenly not being able to use weapon effectivily makes sense because it's not us who forget stuff, the item simply works slightly differently.

Also if to take in consideration our origins as some kind of energy-transfering void beings... Maybe we are simply "warming up" our items? You know... Channel more and more stength into them with time, to avoid overcharging and burning them with void energy.

Your reasoning, while spelled out well, is flawed as it relies on a false premise. We're talking about changing the circuit polarity of a mod slot, an outlet that a mod plugs into as it were, not say the trigger mechanism or anything that would dramatically affect weapon handling...which is kinda funny because that is EXACTLY what our mods do. Using your argument, we should have to rank up our weapons every time we insert a mod that alters rate of fire, accuracy, reload speed, raw damage, clip size, etc.

In real life, adding a larger magazine to a gun makes the weapon notably heavier, so the shooter has to compensate. Re-boring a weapon for a heavier caliber round also involves the shooter compensating for the heavier and more powerful round. And so on.

 

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

I'm all for the idea that forma brings back an item to the mastery rank of the player instead of zero... It would tremendously help alleviate the grind required to apply a set of forma... There's nothing that sucks more than releveling the same weapon five times in a row to put a set on forma on it...

I'm less convinced about all weapons being built at the player's current mastery rank, as I feel it would turn "mastery points" into "ownership points"... I don't think mastery rank should be awarded for simply building a weapon. Granted, it partially depends of how the system is implemented, but I find it cheap that a MR15 Player could build 100 crappy mastery fodder weapons and get 100*1500 Mastery point, in effect gaining 2-3 mastery levels simply by building more stuff in his foundry. It gets even more broken if the base level gets updated for all existing weapons every time you get a new mastery rank... As it would cause a chain reaction where building new weapons gets you new mastery ranks, which in turn levels up all your existing weapons one notch, which in turn gets you another mastery rank, creating an endless loop. Granted, this could be alleviated by making it so that when built, a weapon gets the MR of the player at the time of the weapon creation, and regardless of further MR advancement, said gun stays at it's initial level... But still, I really don't find it logical to award MR rank for not using a weapon, just owning it. Would I care if it was implemented... Not really, since I would abuse it like everyone else. I'm MR21, so earning a free 2100 Mastery Rank everytime I build a new weapon would be a good deal and would save me alot of draco time.. But I think it's a bad design decision. Again, I'm all for doing this for formas, as this is logical imho, just not on new weapons.

-----------

That said, I think there's a deeper, underlying flaw when it comes to forma and polarities that will eventually need to be adressed by DE... Mainly the fact that key mods cost so much mod energy that the player is pretty much forced to put a potato and numerous formas on every single item if he wants them to be remotely useful past the first few planets in the solar system.

It makes no sense that mods like Serration, Hornet Strike, Split Chamber, Heavy caliber cost so much mod energy that you pretty much need to put forma on your gear three or four times simply to fit these into your build. It doesn't help that 90% of the weapons come with terrible (D) or inexistant innate polarities, meaning said weapon is essentially useless without heavy work. In a game where most of the new content is new weapons, having said weapons be essentially useless unless you spend hours pimping them sucks, and it lowers diversity when it comes to weapons used by a play . Why should I use that new rifle that just released when I can use my five forma crit powerhouse that deals 10 times the damage ?

This creates a system where most new weapons are relegated to mastery fodder, because, realistically, you're not going to put 300+ catalysts on all your weapons to reach a decent 60 mod capacity, then put three or four formas on each one of them to get all the essential mods slotted in. You focus on a handful of your favorite guns and frames, leaving the rest to collect dust in your collection.

Ideally, I think no mod should cost more than 9 mod cost or something... Heck, personally, I would remove catalysts altogether and give all weapons 60 mod slots right from the start, with a guaranteed innate polarity slot on every weapon built... This would make even mastery fodder weapons worth using, and at least not make them a chore to level up. If De truly wants to stop draco, maybe they need to look at the bigger picture and make a system where more weapons are viable from the get go.

-------------------------------

[S.T.M.P.D]

On May 3, 2016 at 1:56 AM, Cortanis said:

I think this is more or less the reasons why DE hasn't already followed through on this already. I know a lot of people with an aversion to forma due to the re ranking of the weapons and such. I've never had issue since I've always had my own system for doing this even before Draco was a thing. With the addition of Draco to the mix, it's even easier to rank, re rank, and re re  rank a weapon in a matter of an hour or so with a good team.

Took me a whopping 1 hour and 45 min to forma a paris prime three times. Right there is where the problem kind of crops up though. Not once did I even fire the thing. I simultaneously leveled it with syndicate secondaries so I could just level Ivara as well using her stealth to melee my way through the map while having the secondary equipped as the active weapon so that I could clear portions of the map with the syndicate proc. Lazy yes, but tactically easier.

That kind of exp leach system is kind of half the problem in so far with the system and truth be told, going directly to a mastery rank equivalent even if forma is required isn't exactly friendly to new(er) players as they nether have the MR to make real use of it, the MR access to better weapons to really sink forma into both frames and weapons, or the raw resources to seriously invest like older players do.

Agreed. I think a solution they could implement alongside this would be to only gain affinity for a weapon if you or your squadmates are actually using one. I guess that'd result in one squadmember taking a Brakk Prime or something to Draco while the rest of the squad levels their pistols off of their kills, but it's a start.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

23 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

There is no grind to re-level a weapon or warframe.  None.  No grind.  No reason to use Draco.

You're going to play the game anyway, so just use another weapon.  If you've formaed a primary then just run missions with a epic secondary.  If you've formaed a secondary, then run your regular missions with an epic primary.  If you've formaed a melee weapon, then use your normal weapons.  If you've formaed a warframe, then just use your epic primary.

The only grind is players feeling like they're forced to go to Draco because they have to have that specific item back to 30 right now.

 

I used to feel like you, I used to not understand anything about Draco people. It took me 2 months to get a 5 forma quanta by playing normally, and I felt proud of it, I was a late comer to using the quanta. Then a few weeks later DE released the Quanta vandal with made my 5 forma Quanta obsolete. 2 months of work obsolete (you may say that abandoning the old weapon for one with better stats isn't something that is necessary, but the better stats are why I was putting forma on my quanta -better stats ing the form of mods). I go to Draco now.

Edited May 4, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO

[Zylofan]

So many good changes. Way to go DE!

[Troll_Logic]

42 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

I go to Draco now.

There's not a thing wrong with going to Draco.  If I'm building something that I want right now, I'll go there.  But I was trying to explain to the guy that there is another way to level a weapon quickly without feeling like Draco is a requirement.

BTW, I've got 5 forma on my quanta as well.  When the Vandal version was released, I leveled it and put it on a shelf.  The biggest reason was I don't have the 5 additional formas free.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

5 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Your reasoning, while spelled out well, is flawed as it relies on a false premise. We're talking about changing the circuit polarity of a mod slot, an outlet that a mod plugs into as it were, not say the trigger mechanism or anything that would dramatically affect weapon handling...which is kinda funny because that is EXACTLY what our mods do. Using your argument, we should have to rank up our weapons every time we insert a mod that alters rate of fire, accuracy, reload speed, raw damage, clip size, etc.

In real life, adding a larger magazine to a gun makes the weapon notably heavier, so the shooter has to compensate. Re-boring a weapon for a heavier caliber round also involves the shooter compensating for the heavier and more powerful round. And so on.

 

Well...I mean...I don't know if we are talking about circuitry either. That sounds nice and well...but it seems like when we are talking about what forma actually do in a real life sense versus what they do statistically for our numbers in game, everyone has varying opinions. Like, because they are called "slots" and are shown as empty until a mod is plugged in, it sounds fair. But the mods could have weight, the mods could physically alter the weapon, and so could the forma. 

It could be anything. Anything could be happening.

I don't think you can discredit this persons unfounded theory with another unfounded theory of what forma are really doing to our weapons and frames, unless you are actually correct, and the more supports you in some way I do not know of then I would be forced to agree. Is there anything lore wise that supports you, or some other point you were trying to make? 

 

[pikaseechu]

I have to say that there IS reason to think it over.

 

While many MR21's know more about the game than your average player, it's really just a number they've acquired from leveling up weapons, sentinel, kubrows and frames. 

Until the MR system also rewards players for how much time they've spent outside of Draco, Forma'ing weapons, doing endless missions, and other aspects that define a great player, rewarding a schmuck for MR they obtained by powerleveling their items at Draco is a terrible idea.

 

EDIT;; nothing wrong with Draco for those that would get butthurt, just saying that the current MR system is a broken system.

Edited May 4, 2016 by pikaseechu

[MirageKnight]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Well...I mean...I don't know if we are talking about circuitry either. That sounds nice and well...but it seems like when we are talking about what forma actually do in a real life sense versus what they do statistically for our numbers in game, everyone has varying opinions. Like, because they are called "slots" and are shown as empty until a mod is plugged in, it sounds fair. But the mods could have weight, the mods could physically alter the weapon, and so could the forma. 

It could be anything. Anything could be happening.

I don't think you can discredit this persons unfounded theory with another unfounded theory of what forma are really doing to our weapons and frames, unless you are actually correct, and the more supports you in some way I do not know of then I would be forced to agree. Is there anything lore wise that supports you, or some other point you were trying to make? 

 

No need to get passive aggressive and confrontational. I recognize he has a point of view and an opinion....but so do I and you need to respect that.

I'm talking about this:

"Inheard that IRL each soldier is given his own weapon, because despite everything every model has it's own little uniqir properties which soldier is supposed to get used to."

As someone that's familiar with military firearms, this isn't entirely correct.

Yes, weapon models indeed have quirks / ways of handling that a soldier needs to familiarize themselves with. That said, all weapons of a given model and subtype will have the same quirks.

You're forgetting that soldiers are also instructed in the use of different weapons of the same general class depending on where they are deployed. Take Assault Rifles for example: while a U.S. soldier might be issued an M16A1, he might also be required to familiarize himself with the use of say an H&K G36 (if deployed in Germany or a BAE SA80 (if deployed in England). They're all Assault Rifles, but they all operate and handle differently.

Yes, Battlefield weapons of the same model in real life do have slight variations with regard to say accuracy due to quality of manufacture / level of workmanship. The old SVT-40 semi-automatic rifle fielded by the Red Army in WW2 for example was a good example of this: one SVT-40 could be well-finished and qualify as a sniper-grade weapon and another SVT-40 could suffer from a badly fitting stock which would make the weapon's accuracy suffer as the barrel would "jump" in its stock.

All that said, modern day weapons though tend to be a bit more reliable in terms of manufacture though and variances are very slight and have little effect on the shooter. Mind you if you compare an early version of a given weapon with a later version there will be some differences: A late production M16 probably handles a little differently than an early production one due to improvements in the weapon's design and manufacturing process. In the future, weapons would be put together by advanced robotics and with very exacting standards. Any performance differences between two random Bratons taken from the same production batch on a Corpus production line will be so slight that they'd be completely insignificant and imperceptible to the user.

As far as Forma is concerned: "This shape-altering component is fundamental to Orokin construction."

And that's all that's said on the matter officially.

Now let's look at the size of say a Lato pistol. Where would 8 mod "cards" physically go in a weapon that small? No matter where you put them, it would necessitate very small cards of insignificant weight and very small slots for them. If Forma adds weight when polarizing...the weight increase would still be completely negligible to the user and thus would not affect the weapon's handling in and of itself.

QED.

[Educated_Beast]

I did not read all the pages of replies so sorry if someone already mentioned this. 

 

It is a natural de-incentive to Draco.  If I'm MR 21 and just placed another forma on weapon, why would I go to Draco for final levels when I could play a mission I enjoy (not that Draco is so bad, it is just tiring and a cesspool of scum that are tired of playing it to).  

 

Id be able to use a working weapon that can kill on a tile I enjoy.  Sure there would still be Draco players, but I guarantee many would stop because the need is not there.  I would have more time for void missions!