Wyrm Prime: Please fix its stats before it is vaulted

[oceano4]

1 minute ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

But still, you're still calling the Wyrm Prime 'weak' in a sense, I was just refuting that somewhat.

I said weakest in terms of defence, and it's true, it has the smallest Effective Hit Points out of all Sentinel, even less than standard Wyrm. 

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

Just now, oceano4 said:

I said weakest in terms of defence, and it's true, it has the smallest Effective Hit Points out of all Sentinel, even less than standard Wyrm. 

Well, if that's the case, I said I wouldn't mind 100 more HP. Pretty much the only thing I DON'T like about it.

[oceano4]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Zashukitsune said:

Does any sentinel really count as a tank?  If they actually get targeted, they're gone before you can say goodbye, as stated before, they generally just have splash damage to deal with.

Not arguing the point of the topic, except that it's rather like upgrading the car before you lock the car up for a while. Rather pointless, could've been done before and likely won't be now that it's a moot point.

Carrier Prime, thing is tanky af, and more often than not considered the best sentinel due to its ability too. So not only is it meta, but it has the most effective hit points too.

And this topic is more important than never for our poor Wyrm Prime, since it;s going into the vault soon, it's had a sad existence, where it was statistically the exact same as Wyrm, not even an additional Polarity. It was broken on day one according to the wiki, with the Prime gun not coming with it at first, it's just been plagued with short comings, for every single second of its existence. 

 

And I just really hope someone at DE cares enough, to give it the same health as Wyrm, this is all we ask for.

[taiiat]

Wyrm Prime's defensive Stats are very deliberate.

more Sentinels(or just things in general) should be like Wyrm Prime, which means having tradeoffs that make for different Playstyles.

since the comparison is inevitable - to pay for it's huge Health Pool, Carrier Prime shouldn't have any Shields at all. (which will be hilarious as people will start complaining their Carrier Prime is dying all the time despite having their precious Armor that will 'save them from everything')
and then the majority of Sentinels can either have a standard balance, or a partial shift towards either Health or Shields. but ones that make a large shift to one side or the other is interesting as well.

 

and just like with Warframes, there's limited mechanics to work with Shields (basically none), while Health tends to have several.
and that's most of the problem. but another part is people considering Shields useless when it's a part of the durability equation, it's not having one or the other. a barrier that's purpose to exist is to be a buffer against Damage - does do exactly that.

[TheTundraTerror]

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

more Sentinels(or just things in general) should be like Wyrm Prime, which means having tradeoffs that make for different Playstyles.

There's tradeoffs and than there's just being flatout worse than your normal version.

All people want is for the Prime version to not be worse somehow when compared to the normal version! Why are people thinking it's okay for a Prime item to be worse somehow when compared to the normal version?! How in the hell is this even something that needs to be debated?! Just...

Edited May 14, 2016 by TheTundraTerror

[K0bra]

I dont care the problem but i think nobody would hurt 200 more health.

[oceano4]

8 hours ago, TheTundraTerror said:

There's tradeoffs and than there's just being flatout worse than your normal version.

All people want is for the Prime version to not be worse somehow when compared to the normal version! Why are people thinking it's okay for a Prime item to be worse somehow when compared to the normal version?! How in the hell is this even something that needs to be debated?! Just...

Jesus, I can relate to that picture right now, why must everything on these forums be so difficult? I have a feeling of this was on r/Warframe, everyone would see straight away how Wyrm Prime is at a disadvantage compared to every other Sentinel, even ta bass counterpart.

All Wyrm Prime needs, is the standard 200 health, is that really so too mich to ask for?  

[taiiat]

12 hours ago, TheTundraTerror said:

Why are people thinking it's okay for a Prime item to be worse somehow when compared to the normal version?!

because that would make for interesting choices. pays for a significant benefit over here, by losing something over there.

[bubbabenali]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

because that would make for interesting choices. pays for a significant benefit over here, by losing something over there.

What benefits? Fancy pants for weak sauce - nice tradeoff.

[TheTundraTerror]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

because that would make for interesting choices. pays for a significant benefit over here, by losing something over there.

Carrier Prime is a straight upgrade to the Carrier. Prime frames are better than normal frames. Prime weapons (aside from the odd shuffling of IPS spread) are better than the normal versions. Even the Prisma and Wraith weapons are improved versions of weapons! Even Prisma Shade is a straight upgrade!

Wyrm Prime has more than enough going for it by not being Carrier Prime. Do we need to gives it more of a reason to not be used?! What if Booban Prime had half the health for an extra 50 armour? Do you think people would say that it "would make for interesting choices"?!

Edited May 14, 2016 by TheTundraTerror

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, TheTundraTerror said:

other things have no interesting choices

other things being direct upgrades doesn't make it healthy for the game.
should have less of it, not more. but like hundreds of other games, Warframe will insist that it won't cause a problem. and then later on, like the rest of those games, it blows up as unlimited stats in every regard blows up in every game.

the Customers don't care, because they just move to the next game and tell them to do the same thing. because it's not their business that's getting destroyed.

[oceano4]

20 minutes ago, taiiat said:

other things being direct upgrades doesn't make it healthy for the game.
should have less of it, not more. but like hundreds of other games, Warframe will insist that it won't cause a problem. and then later on, like the rest of those games, it blows up as unlimited stats in every regard blows up in every game.

the Customers don't care, because they just move to the next game and tell them to do the same thing. because it's not their business that's getting destroyed.

Well, it;s far too late now, it;s been 3 years now, and Prisma, Vandel, Wraith, Prime, Dex, they're all better than their counterparts. 

And Prime stuff, that are slightly better than their normal versions, give people things to work towards, and of all things, that;s something new players need. A goal.

Either way, at the end of the day, all we're asking for, is Wyrm Prime to have the same health as Wyrm, and I have a strong feeling the majority of the community would want that too. 

[Tesseract7777]

Wyrm has (without mods): 

200 * (1 + (50/300)) = 233 EHP 

Wyrm Prime has (without mods): 

100 * (1 + (150/300)) = 150 EHP

Now let's say they both have Vitality and Steel Fiber equipped at max rank: 

Wyrm with Vitality + Steel Fiber: 

640 * (1 + (105/300)) = 864 

Wyrm Prime with Vitality + Steel Fiber: 

320 * (1 + (315/300)) = 656 

So Wyrm Prime has a bit less effective hp than regular Wyrm, but it has triple the shields. Shields recharge can be increased by modding, which is more useful for sentinels since they may not be directly targeted by the enemy -- they are more often killed by aoe. 

Shields should have more mechanics to work with them, but Fast Deflection, and allegedly Sanctuary work with shields, so that is already a start. I want to test it myself, the wiki claims your shield strength from sentinel increases the overall shield health of the bubble created by sanctuary. 

 

• All Sentinels with a max rank of this mod have a shieldcapacity 375, except the Shade which has 188, and Wyrm Prime which has 1,125.

 

That's from the wiki for the sentinel redirection mod. That is way, way more shields. It's a trade-off to be sure, but there is no arguing that the Wyrm Prime has more overall survivability. Nearly as much EHP, way more shields, and unlike Warframe's you actually have room on sentinels to use stuff like Fast Deflection. Wyrm Prime doesn't need a buff. You can't just look at the ehp without shields when the difference is THAT huge. Shields take a part in the overall survivability equation. 

After doing the math. I have come to agree with Taiiat on this.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[TheTundraTerror]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

other things being direct upgrades doesn't make it healthy for the game.

It's! A! PRIME!

@Tesseract7777

This shouldn't even be an issue of "how good are shields" (to which the answer is slash and toxic procs). It's an issue of "Why is a Prime item inferior to it's normal counterpart?".

Edited May 15, 2016 by TheTundraTerror

[Chipputer]

7 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

It's! A! PRIME!

Something being a prime doesn't suddenly mean it needs to be a direct upgrade.

Look at Carrier Prime-- if every prime were buffed to that level we'd have a huge issue.

[Tesseract7777]

13 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

It's! A! PRIME!

@Tesseract7777

This shouldn't even be an issue of "how good are shields" (to which the answer is slash and toxic procs). It's an issue of "Why is a Prime item inferior to it's normal counterpart?".

 

I just laid out the math for why it is not only not inferior to the regular, but actually has MORE survivability. I also laid out ways those shields can give you more utility/benefit, such as with Sanctuary. 

 

You chose to ignore all of that. So it's a prime? So What? It has upgraded stats, with more overall survival strength than the original. EHP without counting shields isn't everything. 

 

And yes, toxin and slash procs exist, but don't act like they happen all the time every mission. More to the point, sentinels are usually not being directly targeted, so they are less likely to be hit by such anyways. And even if they are, the Wyrm sentinel still has very close EHP to the prime, and way, way more shields. 

 

You can't just dismiss shields as a stat when they are three times higher, in terms of survival, sorry. That's just not how it works. Both Warframes and Sentinels survival strength actually ARE affected by shield strength. Just because there are some damage types that get through shields does not mean you can just take shields and throw them out of the equation. I just did the math and showed my work to show how Wyrm Prime has objectively more overall survival strength. If you want to argue that show me alternative math. 

[TheTundraTerror]

5 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I just laid out the math for why it is not only not inferior to the regular, but actually has MORE survivability.

It still has less EHP. That's a fact. Just because it has more shields does not counteract the fact that it has less EHP. You can try and argue how "oh, shields are so great!" and have a giant frickin' party for shields! Good for you! Throw a freakin' parade! Still has less health.

Give me one reason why it can't have the same EHP as the normal version while having more shields.

 

5 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

And yes, toxin and slash procs exist, but don't act like they happen all the time every mission.

I am now fully convinced these people do not play the game at all.

 

Edited May 15, 2016 by TheTundraTerror

[Chipputer]

2 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

I am now fully convinced these people do not play the game at all.

I'm concerned about my Wyrm Prime dying to toxin and slash procs, as well, but the amount of times I've had one hit mine, just today, throughout 5 hours of play time was able to be counted on one hand. I don't even have to use all five fingers.

Hyperbole helps nobody.

[Tesseract7777]

7 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

It still had less EHP. That's a fact. Just because it has more shields does not counteract the fact that it has less EHP.

 

 

 

And yes, it has less EHP, but as I said, you can't just remove shields from the equation when they are three times higher than any other sentinel in the game. Shields are a part of the overall survival equation. Considering that Wyrm Prime's EHP is only slightly lower and it's shields are three times as strong, it's an objective FACT that Wyrm Prime is stronger in terms of survival. 

But my point still stands, despite your ridiculous, sarcastic pic. You are trying to throw shields completely out of the equation by pointing out that some damage types and procs ignore shields. Yes, my point is very "obvious" but it needs to be pointed out because you are completely ignoring it. Until all or most damage types ignore shields you cannot pretend that they don't have an effect on survival. 

 

Also, maybe you shouldn't discuss this with people if you can't do so respectfully or maturely. 

Edited May 15, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[Chipputer]

2 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

le funny pic xD

This isn't a "Are shields any good" post! This is a "why is a prime item somehow inferior to it's normal version when this isn't the case for Carrier Prime or any of the Prime fraames?" post. Why is Wyrm Prime unable to have at least the same health as regular Wyrm? Why?

One stat is worse. After everything else is considered, the overall item is superior to the original. How is it inferior, at all? The math is right there. You can't argue against that so you're choosing to be sarcastic and bull headed.

[Chipputer]

2 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

I'm saying a Prime item shouldn't be worse in some way to it's normal version

Correct.

2 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

you're going on about how great shields are like it makes a worse stat totally null and void.

Incorrect. The math dictates that the boost to shields makes Wyrm Prime's survivability overall the same, or better, than it's base counterpart. The argument is that you can't just completely disregard the shields.

8 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

I'm sure most of the people against this are Carrier Prime fanboys.

I actively try to avoid using Carrier Prime unless I'm specifically trying to farm items, such as Omega Isotopes, but okay. Misrepresentation, assumption, and character assassination are totally okay things to do during a discussion.

[TheTundraTerror]

2 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Incorrect. The math dictates that the boost to shields makes Wyrm Prime's survivability overall the same, or better, than it's base counterpart. The argument is that you can't just completely disregard the shields.

And yet, look at that: Wyrm Prime has stats that are still worse than it's normal version. There is not reason why Wyrm Prime can't simply have it's health boosted to 200, meaning it has a armour and shield bump.

Edited May 15, 2016 by TheTundraTerror

[TheTundraTerror]

3 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

 

What's really funny is he's now trying to change his own argument after the fact, claiming that he was just saying that "no prime should have any stat less than their original". 

I mean, it's not like the entire point of the post is how Wyrm Prime has a lesser stat for a Prime!

 

3 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

But his own argument documented pages back is saying that Wyrm Prime is objectively inferior in terms of surivival.

Just because it has more shields doesn't change the fact that, yes, it has objectively less health and less survivablity. Shields are meaningless in higher level.

Edited May 15, 2016 by TheTundraTerror

[oceano4]

2 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

-snip-

What about Carrier Prime then? And all other Prime gear which have no drawbacks? 

And with mods such as fired up, sanctuary, mediray, Animal Instinct there isn't a lot of room left, not many people will find room for fast deflection.

Also keep in mind shields aren't effected by armour, and last time I checked, Carrier can now heal itself by sucking up health orbs. Combine that with it;s amazing armour and massive health pool, and Carrier Prime is tankier than some frames. 

Another thing to remember, is damage that breaks shields, then goes into health, DOESN'T take armour into consideration. Someone datamined this.found this out on r/Warframe, we think it's a glitch currently.

So all in all, when it comes to our defences. Health>Armour>Shields. Wyrm Prime can have loads of armour, but it won't matter, with a tiny health pool like it has now, it just dies easier compared to normal Wyrm when they have the same mods. 

[Chipputer]

3 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

And yet, look at that: Wyrm Prime has stats that are still worse than it's normal version. There is not reason why Wyrm Prime can't simply have it's health boosted to 200, meaning it has a armour and shield bump.

I don't think anyone would complain if the base health was boosted to 200. That wasn't the point of what you were arguing against, though, as it's mathematically able to be proven that Wyrm Prime has superior survivability, even now.

Nobody here is your enemy but yourself and your terrible attitude.