Mag Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Fionntan]

4 minutes ago, Fugana said:

Here is the strategic how to play with reworked Mag. So now she is insanely OP be she is made for TEAM PLAY   TEAAAM PLAY her 3 skills when you put max strenght and about 200% duration she turns 90lvl enemies into lvl 1-10 so why everyone is calling her trash and etc? Bring Mag and Saryn in a mission like defense and you can ceep it for a very long time. 
Now Mag is awaaay powerfull than she ever was and stop crying around. Otherwaise you guys really dont undesstand how to play Warframe. 

On a feedback thread to cease complains?

Regardless of state said complain, it falls into feedback section.

That is all. 

[robbybe01234]

10 minutes ago, Fugana said:

Here is the strategic how to play with reworked Mag. So now she is insanely OP be she is made for TEAM PLAY   TEAAAM PLAY her 3 skills when you put max strenght and about 200% duration she turns 90lvl enemies into lvl 1-10 so why everyone is calling her trash and etc? Bring Mag and Saryn in a mission like defense and you can ceep it for a very long time. 
Now Mag is awaaay powerfull than she ever was and stop crying around. Otherwaise you guys really dont undesstand how to play Warframe. 

Shouldn't frames be able to be good at both team and solo play?  Should one preclude the other?

Edited May 29, 2016 by robbybe01234

[NessTV]

Played Mag a little bit now. IMO this is taking her in a good direction, though I understand when people complain about her being a different frame now. But she's not useless and she's fun to play. There's only few things she needs:

1. Tweaks to synergize her abilities more.

a) Energy, energy, energy. She now has to cast 5x more abilities than before with the same 300 energy pool with maxed flow. If DE thought that energy from pulled enemies will make up for that then here's the newsflash: no it won't. It completely makes Mag pointless without pizzas or EV Trinity and I thought you want to get rid of them. Either increase the pool or come up with a new mechanic of restoring energy.

b) Consistency. My idea of making me safe when reviving teammate: Pull this Bombard to my feet, then magnetize and it's all cool. But noo, Bombard flies over my head and screws my plan totally. Really, this has such a great potential for enemy-relocating tool, and what it does is it just makes enemies fly around. I want powers to have non-random output so I can develop tactics based on them.

c) Clarity. I still have no idea what Magnetize actually does. It seems to pop the bubble, wait 2 seconds and pull people in (barely visible). Then it does nothing except redirecting bullets/projectiles to the center. If the target dies during it's lifetime, it explodes dealing nice damage based on damage gathered. Nobody knows how does it calculate it, because it never shows any numbers for it, but generally it kills stuff. Also it deals dot damage, 25% of total damage amassed. But for some reason it sometimes stops doing anything after target's death except redirecting stuff. Also for some reason it sometimes ignores it and let's it go through. Sometimes projectiles explode in the center, sometimes they spin around (that matters a lot, because I make weapon choices based on that). I don't have access to Simulacrum or however it's called, otherwise I would make exact description of what it does.

d) Team friendliness. If you are putting ability that can be an annoyance to other players, make sure that user has an option to correct his mistakes. Frost can destroy his Snow Globes, Limbo can get rid of Cataclysm. Come on, let us force explosion on bubbles. Mechanics like that are always welcomed.

2. Bug fixing.

Not much to write here, I guess that Bullet Attractor was bugged like that before, but nobody noticed it because nobody used it. Now it's the most used ability. Stuff like wiping entire squads should not happen. Opticor is almost unusable with that. Only without things like that players can judge if the frame is useful or not.

3. 4th ability rework.

Crush is the most useless ability ever. I have never used it seriously. Mag would be better without it because pressing 4 on accident wouldn't use your energy. IMO it's beyond being reworkable. Just delete it.

Ok, we got rid of Crush. What do we do now? Easy: move 3 to 4 and return % based damage. Base energy 100, wave-like mechanics should be kept because otherwise thanks for Fleeting Expertise people would just mod for that one ability. We move Magnetize to 3, but keep it exactly the same and keep base energy cost 50. Now we got slot 2 and we need to come up with an idea. I haven't thought this through, but my first idea was a simple Push. It can be single-target Polarize, or absord all shrapnels for energy, or whatever. We got most of that covered anyway.

 

 

[BlackCoMerc]

Mag Changes: The good and Bad:

Passive:

-Feels... lackluster. It's...neat, I guess. But doesn't add anything at all. I would expect her passive to interact with magnetized stuff.

-kill the vacuum sound effect on bullet jump. One day with her and it's already annoying. (See Zephyr and Tailwind for more on this).

Pull: fine as is

Magnetize: good as is. Nice change.

Polarize: Useless.

-Barely removes shields.

-Armor reduction should be a percentage not a numeric amount. Maybe removes 25/50/75% of armor? This would make her top tier, with one Forma and CP.

Crush: Decent. At best. Not good for an Ultimate.

-Crush doesn't kill anything above level 30. Nor does it offer crowd control. So...what's its purpose, again?

Mag is in a bad place right now. She went from amazing against one faction to mediocre against all of them. 

This needs fixed.  And "needs" is very much the right word.

 

[-VS-Zany]

50 minutes ago, Fugana said:

[...] Now Mag is awaaay powerfull than she ever was [...]

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

1 hour ago, robbybe01234 said:

I realize it's because she can't cheat anymore.  Nothing to back it up right now, but I feel that many of the best frames have a way to cheat the game to level the playing field against crazy damage or crazy numbers of enemies.  She has none of that sooooooo, yeah!

Care to explain your previous response?

 

 

[robbybe01234]

42 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Care to explain your previous response?

 

Thanks for reposting my thing.  Sure, I'll explain a bit.  If you stopped at my first 2 sentences than yes it seems like I'm asking for 2 exclusive things at the same time.  This is not the case, I am asking for either one of them.  An involved/versatile kit or a kit with average abilities that includes something to cheat to handle difficult things. If you read the whole thing, the take away you should have is that I like the direction in which they started heading. This doesn't mean they are there yet.  The bullet points that you didn't link show she can't keep up with her new kit and her kit can't keep up after lvl 50-60.  And DE removed her ability to even things out (corpus).  Therefore she is left without being able to do things well enough to justify a spot on a team or solo play at high levels.  Hopefully this expands your view on my previous post.  

-RB

Edited May 29, 2016 by robbybe01234

[painterman]

After some playtest, it feels better but the same, overall i think is a step on the rigth direction, but:

-Now she dosnt scale, at all. pull dmg was always lackluster on high lv content, her new 2 seems prety good, but as has been said, its buggy as hell atm, it should absorb all proyectiles and should not kill you or your companions at ramdon, polarice new metod of spread its just too slow and has no dmg, at all, i have tried 3-4 builds with 100% to 200% power streng and no mather the lv of the content (low lv around 20-25 to high lv sorties) it just donst feel righ and cant kill anything. The only time were it fellt rigth was with high streng on mid to high lv grinier on star map, were it removes all armor and makes then vulnerable.Crush as alwais its meh, some enemys ignore the cc part, the dmg its inconsistent, like it can kill a flameblade/moa, but cant another that its just besides him.

-Her pasive is awesome, it fits really well the new parcour and the constant stay in moove to stay alive.

As i said, its a good step, but 4 backwards in terms of wat it used to be, my sugestions( apart from fixin incosistent dmg and proyectiles tru her 2)

-Bring back the % of shield removed and incorpore that onto armor: on low levels the diference betewn pre-rework and after its none, but once you get onto lv 30 stuf(this is not even close to draco/pluto/sorties/t3-4 void¡¡¡) but she cannot do good enough in high lv stuf to justifi bringing her, even volt now does better overall. You can tone dow the dmg so it donst one-shot everything it removes its armor/shield, but at least allow her to remove/restore 100% of shields/armor.

-Increase the speed of the wave: now in a group of enemis, the first one gets depleted of shields, and the rest gets depleted by the explosion, not the efect, cuting dow the potential by a lot. As i said, it donst need to be 4 times the shield removed, it can be much lower, but yea, she lost a ton of potential dmg.

-Increase sharpnell efectivenes: Its a cool concept, but i think it should incorporated to all abilitys and have its dmg cut to 1/4 to compensate in the sheer amount of sharpnell she can dispense, so it feels more integrated. Also make it afected by pull and crush: you pull all sharpnell towards you and enemys afected, you generate sharpnell by using all abilitys, crush makes and atracts sharpnell to enemis afectd.

As a final note: it seems that a lot of the new frames/reworked ones are geting to much atention of having positive duration one way or another, why DE dont you like negative duration builds? With mag you done it again, now she needs duration

[Cerebrum123]

Please bring back instant shield healing for allies. The slow bubble is not a huge deal on enemies, but for allies and shields it can mean the difference between life and death in this game. That's one of the big complaints with Oberon's healing from what I can see. Bringing back a % based damage, even drastically toned down from the previous version of Shield Polarize would be much better than the flat cap we've got now. 

[jofdeath]

Mags rework i find alright

pull is pull

magnitize oh man still broken when used properly 

polarize i would say change it to % scaling not set value, sure it can be lower but it was the main reason people would even bring her in high lvl corpus because it indefinitly scaled, sure does need a bit of a decrease but still hella useful

crush it did get a increase in damage to enemys that are magnetized which is nice, but still better CC fracturing crush should scale with power

[Dracaras]

Why did you Mag killed they could predict with Polarize kill lvl 135 corpus now survive even lvl 10 opponents please remade the percentage  damage

[DarkMutant]

I was really dissapointed with mag's rework overall... I mean she is better now but she doesn't SCALE like she did before, which really lets me down since the game is progressing slowly into the end-game and while mag's not that strong against end-game she will be COMPLETELY useless.

 

For me here's what I didn't like about her rework and suggested changes.

1) Her first ability is extremely wonderful, but for sure she needs to have an increased chance of energy drop. Also the increased "if enemy is magnetiezed" damage wont work much since her abilities don't magnetize.

2) Her second ability is @(*()$ bravo one of the best abilities I've witnessed so far, but needs to remove the teamkilling crap. Self killing crap should probably stay since it acts as a balance to this wonderful ability. ALSO should be able to proc magnetic proc even if 1%.

3) Her third ability is my second biggest dissapointment this year after vauban prime (ofcourse), it doesn't remove all armor, it doesn't remove all shields, and it doesn't do damage. It's just a S#&$ty flashy show to show allies how cool you are. For me I'd say suggested rebalance is making it deal no damage, adding magnetic proc chance even if 1%, AND MAKING IT REMOVE ALL ARMOR AND SHIELDS FOR ETERNITY (or well for a duration).

4) Her fourth ability is wonderful but needs a little bit more changes. Downed enemies should stay downed for an extended period of time (kind of like an escape to flee or some time to spam a skill), and again the increased "if enemy is magnetized" damage doesn't kick in except rarely.

Passive) This passive might be one of my favorite passives in the entire game, sure looked useless at release but oh man is it something!

 

TL;DR Add more magnetic procs, make 3rd debuff instead of damage, make 2nd not teamkill and make it magnetic proc, and let enemies that are put against her 4th stay on the ground for a little longer (or scale with duration pls!). Because I believe that mag, in this current state, is DEAD.

[motorfirebox]

Overall I like the new Mag. I think a Polarize nerf was needed, but I think it's gone too far. As it stands, it's simply not worth 75 energy, especially in comparison to Magnetize at 50 energy. The combination of non-instantaneous propagation and the flat damage and the increased cost hurts it too much. Polarize is still best used when there's a group of shielded enemies close to each other, because you get all of their 1k damage shield explosions hitting each other. A bunch of 1k explosions is nice, but the slow propagation means that if you spot a group of shielded enemies and hit Polarize, they're likely to have spread out by the time the wave gets to them. And because the cost is so high, you can't afford to spam the ability in hopes of catching a grouping.

I think the flat damage is fine, especially with the bonus shield explosions. I think that there should be some sort of similar proc for armor—maybe 500 slash to represent spalling, with a proc chance?—and I think that either the cost needs to come down to 50, or the propagation needs to be instant instead of a slow wave.

[Gilmaesh]

Another feedback, I tried the Tysis and took her for a quick T3 solo survival (still need vauban) and i finally left at 80min, i was still killing without much problem but the scaling start to become painful at those levels and rewards made me leave :

Spoiler

 

 

- still no use for crush, maybe in team as a cc, but animation is still too long

- still consume a lots of energy, need a buff or a way to gain energy back

- magnetize scale well and can kill nulifiers but sometime they can pop the skill and you have a "oh S#&$" moment.

- passive, i use carrier so couldn't test

Seriously, i need to stop testing things with her, she takes too much of my time, i can't test the other reworks properly but she's fun for testing old weapons i haven't used in a long time.

ps : lex p bp and x3 oro cell can go to hell

Edited May 29, 2016 by Gilmaesh

[Ryujin]

Love the rework! if i could ask for one thing, it would be to give her a higher energy pool since she's an awesome caster frame now :O

[Keltik0ne]

4 hours ago, Fugana said:

Here is the strategic how to play with reworked Mag. So now she is insanely OP be she is made for TEAM PLAY   TEAAAM PLAY her 3 skills when you put max strenght and about 200% duration she turns 90lvl enemies into lvl 1-10 so why everyone is calling her trash and etc? Bring Mag and Saryn in a mission like defense and you can ceep it for a very long time. 
Now Mag is awaaay powerfull than she ever was and stop crying around. Otherwaise you guys really dont undesstand how to play Warframe. 

Well, if that was true it would be nice. However, it takes multiple casts at 250 power to strip all the armour (8 on a lvl 100 corrupted gunner in the sim). Now, getting power to that level takes huge chunks off your other stats so how exactly are you managing to to it ?

Yes, I know max strength is 299 but I can't get it there without burning another forma.

[TheDelighted]

Reduce ability costs, make magnetize an area targeted ability and I'll be happy.

[AutoPhox]

Love the new changes so far. I wish polarity did a bit more damage though.

Above all else, please give mag a better passive, and make vaccum on bullit jumps a standard move for all frames.

Please.

[Flowen231]

Magnetize should be able to draw in any enemy in the cast to the center, right now any enemy except the castee can walk out of it like nothing. If they do that, they'd probably have to reduce the amount of magnetizes that can be active at a time, but imo 1 good bubble is better than 4 crippled ones.

 

EDIT: Woopsie, I meant Magnetize, not polarize lol. Although the change to polarize is pretty meh, they should have kept it as a % based thing.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Flowen231

[Currilicious]

Did some tests on Sorties from the past 2 days.

1. On Pull. The double damage on Magnetized is nice. But it's counter productive since you're pulling them out of the Magnetized bubble. Instead, have the Pull-ed enemies get stuck in the Magnetize bubble if they pass one. So you can lay down a bubble and then pull all the other bad guys into it.

2. On Magnetize. Rooting the targets is good. But, after the initial target is dead leaving the bubble there, other targets arriving at the bubble can waltz right through it. I think it need to at least have a slow effect on them. And, it needs a trigger end mechanism, something like pressing #2 again while aimed at the bubble.

3. On Polarize. Need to make the stripping percentage based. As enemy scale, the effect plateaued off way too early. This is especially true for shield based enemies. Also, the wave suffers from a damage falloff on the targets in the outer limits. There needs to be a form of damage buffer as the wave expand. For a 75 energy skill, this version is quite underwhelming.

4. Crush. As bad as it was before. This skill needs to be remade. It still feels like a scam for a skill that costs 100 energy, nevermind the ulti tag.

 

[Flowen231]

2 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

2. On Magnetize. Rooting the targets is good. But, after the initial target is dead leaving the bubble there, other targets arriving at the bubble can waltz right through it. I think it need to at least have a slow effect on them. And, it needs a trigger end mechanism, something like pressing #2 again while aimed at the bubble.

 

Or they can make it that anything in the bubble gets dragged to the center so you can actually hit them. Non-targeted enemies in the bubble wont be hit by your shots, they'll just be hit by the minor DoT that you rack up, unless they stand in the middle of the bubble, which they don't do because it has no pull.

[Big_Gunz]

11 hours ago, Reifnir said:

If you, your allies, your objective/rescue target/extractor started taking any significant damage you're well on your way to failing the mission anyway.

That's called giving up.

I've won missions where we came back from this.

 

Not with PUGs, cause they always bail when any sign of problem.

They can't cope with struggle.

[Reifnir]

9 minutes ago, ThunderTitz said:

That's called giving up.

I've won missions where we came back from this.

 

Not with PUGs, cause they always bail when any sign of problem.

They can't cope with struggle.

Struggle? In Sorties (especially the difficult ones) it's a choice between "everybody dies" and "nobody dies unless doing something very stupid", there is no middle ground, and no space to struggle. It's a game of Diablo where difficulty/monster power keeps on increasing and your Toughness is capped at values fit for Hard (at best). When they "fix" frames like they did with Mag without fixing the bigger issue which is enemy power/toughness scaling they're just breaking things further. 

Edited May 29, 2016 by Reifnir

[NessTV]

Just did Sortie 3 with my Mag. Didn't feel like struggling more than with any other frame (though that was annoying because it was interception against infested and our dedicated Trinity has trouble adjusting his build to fit our needs). Maybe it was just Tonkor, gotta check with Telos Boltor how that will turn out.

[Roboplus]

Just did the Proxy Survival with Mag. Rough start. Downed a few times and even died once.

Managed to survive long enough for Zenurik to kick in and never went down again. Came close once.

Very active playstyle. Lots of running, sliding, rolling, jumping. Casting Polarize frequently. Loads of concurrent Magnetize use, mostly defensive.

She definitely has some energy issues on her own that Pull's energy orb drop bonus is not addressing, as it only works on kills, but is not a killing move.

And Shield Transference was a must, as I was constantly bungeeing shields even with all the Magnetize blocking fire. If we'd been fighting that many Grineer hitting that hard, there would have been little I could do. She really needs to generate overshields with Polarize by default.

Team went down constantly. Wish I could have given them overshields. Would like to see that functionality given to Shield Transference.

Crush continued to be worthless and so was any Shrapnel dropped. Perhaps let Mag pick up and store Shrapnel to empower Crush?

Natural Talent still mandatory.

Still needs a higher overshield cap.