The problem with low-geared players in late game content, and a potential solution

[Kitzun]

6 minutes ago, Shreiko said:

Why do you feel there's a need for such changes in the current iteration of the game?

Because people are tired of:

-taxiing;

-dead weights in high level missions.

In fact, people are tired of having to carry others to avoid a mission failure.

1 minute ago, heskaroid said:

How about putting MR restrictions depending on most nodes? 

For example,Draco should be restricted up to MR11-more.

 

Read.

First.

Post.

[T7Alpha]

What about just putting minimum conclave rating on missions like dungeons in WoW has? 

[Soketsu]

2 minutes ago, heskaroid said:

How about putting MR restrictions depending on most nodes? 

For example,Draco should be restricted up to MR11-more.

 

the f* ?

you know that most MR6-8 can hold a point on draco at least 1 wave, why 11 ?

beside MR does reflect the real power

[(PSN)vamp6x6x6x]

1. Might work as long as it doesn't conflict with raids either, but then  again we don't know what the new star chart will look like yet...

2. I play on PS4 and most missions may as well be solo anyway lol...

 

[heskaroid]

Just now, Soketsu said:

the f* ?

you know that most MR6-8 can hold a point on draco at least 1 wave, why 11 ?

beside MR does reflect the real power

 

It is not really about skill,it's about progression.

Just because I brought up Draco doesn't mean you guys have to cry over it. It is just an example.

[ranks21]

if I want to spell poorly, not use punctuations etc. its still quite understandable. furthermore I never knew I was in an English grammar class. this is the internet where none of the class room rules applies.. lmao.

I will continue with my bad grammar as I choose to not let this bother me as much as it does you..

Ps: English, chemistry, mathematics, physics and biology was my better subjects back in high school with a 92% average  French was my foreign language which I hated and still managed above 80% average.

I don't need to impress or be accepted by anyone as petty stuff like image does not bother me one bit, good day..

[KIREEK]

Restrictions to sorties should be the completion of star map.

I do agree with both points by the OP, but these sugestions aren't exactly new, namely no taxis to content the user doesn't have unlocked.

As for MR sugestions, those aren't even worth the effort of reading

Edited June 17, 2016 by KIREEK

[--Q--JoeTheBanshee]

Readers, please be aware that skill level is not determined by MR. Many of us veterans are fully aware that a player's ability is not necessarily tied to the amount of time he/she has played. That being said, weapon/frame availability, mod ranks, and mod availability can generally be assessed by MR. It can be said that a MR4 player does not have access to a wide array of frames that may be needed to develop a versatile team for end-game content, and it's likely they have not obtained the fusion cores and forma needed to min/max their weapons and/or frames.

 

Just to reiterate, the argument is not saying that low-rank players are incompetent or lacking in skill, but they are most likely lacking in equipment diversity and possibly important info on modding for end-game content.

[heskaroid]

Just now, --Q--JoeTheBanshee said:

Readers, please be aware that skill level is not determined by MR. Many of us veterans are fully aware that a player's ability is not necessarily tied to the amount of time he/she has played. That being said, weapon/frame availability, mod ranks, and mod availability can generally be assessed by MR. It can be said that a MR4 player does not have access to a wide array of frames that may be needed to develop a versatile team for end-game content, and it's likely they have not obtained the fusion cores and forma needed to min/max their weapons and/or frames.

 

Just to reiterate, the argument is not saying that low-rank players are incompetent or lacking in skill, but they are most likely lacking in equipment diversity and possibly important info on modding for end-game content.

Thank you for summarizing the thread,I am not really a big fan of reading wall of texts. No offense,Letter13.

I still think locking several nodes as a sign of telling you to progress further,it doesn't really have to do with skill.

[jinxeverything]

Excuse me mister or mada'am Kubrow 13, but if missions were to scale with numbers of players like in Spy, if you solo it you only have 1 vault to break into or in Defense, you only need to do 2-3 waves before you hit the Rotation^TM , it might help low level players take on harder missions after all harder/ higher level missions = more affinity.

MR is not good enough as is so using it as a mean to lock planets is not going to help new players enjoy the game at all in fact it may drive them away.

How about a test that unlocks content? something like :

Do 5 waves of defense, upon success you get to do 10 waves of defense, upon success you get to do 15 and so on, the purpose here is to see how far they can go and at the same time each time 5 waves is done a higher level mission of defense is unlocked, failing this test keep them at what they unlocked so far!

Well?

Its true this might not be the best way to handle the issue of new/ low level players/ under equipped players trying higher content but its a good way to show them if they are ready for what lies ahead or not!

[Soketsu]

1 minute ago, heskaroid said:

 

It is not really about skill,it's about progression.

Just because I brought up Draco doesn't mean you guys have to cry over it. It is just an example.

alright so why 11 ?

2 years ago, manage to go alone  on most node of every planet and i was MR6

 

MR does not reflect power

conclave rate does not reflect how many time a guy max up weapon/warframe

so for me it should never be implement but it seem with all this thread it may happened and I find it sad

[(PSN)lupowolfen]

1 hour ago, Letter13 said:

.....

1. Prevent players who cannot pull their own weight from joining late game missions,   ...

Good idea.  I like it.  If you have not unlocked a Sortie node yet, its likely you are a less experienced player.  

1 hour ago, Letter13 said:

Locking with mastery isn't viable; if a low MR player has the equipment and mods to take on later game content, there should be nothing preventing them from accessing said content.

Mastery rank isn't indicative of skill or gear level; someone may be low MR by choice--in that they have found a set of weapons/frames that they prefer to exclusively use, and don't feel the need to get additional weapons or frames. In that respect, excluding players based on mastery is not a good solution at all.

 

To the whole "Mastery Rank Doesn't Mean Anything"  Cult.

Actually Mastery Rank means a bunch.

High Mastery Rank means:

1.  You've leveled and played with a ton of gear (even if its been Draco)

2. You've farmed tons of different resources and credits in lots of different types of missions.   (usually at least.  Unless you bought it all with money but thats rare.)

3.   You've taken mastery rank tests that often make you a better player.  Not always but often the Mastery Rank test makes you learn something about some piece of gear or frame.  And it can teach aiming, movement and soloing missions.  Some of the tests involve gearing tricks or cheese and all of this info is useful to the seasoned player.

4.  You now have options and mods and tricks you didn't have before.

So, yes, Mastery Rank Means a lot and it is a useful yardstick for measuring a players skill and experience and loadout capabilities.  

I think using mastery rank as a barrier to sorties is a great idea.  Its even like that currently except the barrier is MR4 which is too low.   Make the barrier MR8 and you end up with a lot more players that can pull their weight in sorties.

 

[Cray]

You know what I think?

 

I think you should all be ashamed of yourselves. Wait for Starchart 3.0. Once we know how it works and what the normal progression will look like, and whether or not taxis will even remain a thing. THEN we can sit down and discuss its issues.

 

Until then, I'm going to loudly shout 'lock behind MR', not because it's the easiest answer (It's actually a bad idea), but because it'll piss everyone off.

Edited June 17, 2016 by DeltaPhantom

[RahuHordika]

2 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

Restrictions to sorties should be the completion of star map.

I do agree with both points by the OP, but these sugestions aren't exactly new, namely no taxis to content the user doesn't have unlocked.

That pretty much equals to the removal of taxis altogether though, if the user can go to the node by themselves anyways.

I can understand the frustration of having someone who cannot pull their weight in a mission, but I have to disagree with the complete disabling of taxis, as someone who has the starchart practically cleaned, primarily for the alert system and I don't think I need to explain much why there's no reason why it should go away completely. Telling people to f off for the item god knows when they'll ever see again (if at all) seems nothing short of an elitist attitude IMO and I don't believe there is any reason they shouldn't be able to get the item that could have as well also appeared in a node they would have already long unlocked.

I have a question to ask to the people of this thread, how many of you know that taxiing already doesn't unlock the node? Just to get some insight. On a compromise however I can understand low geared players being taken to 'common' nodes where they might be a nuisance so if OP's first suggestion must happen why no separate an alert node from the regular one and make only the alert version of said node have no restriction on who can enter it?

[Alma_Elma]

Or how about: We just implement a pre-game kick function so we can kick lowbies off our lobbies if we don't want them.

Seriously, that would fix 99% of our problems. PuGs can go back to being the elitists' cool club and lowbies just have to find clans or friends willing to taxi them elsewhere.

PUG scrubs win. Feckin' lowbies...well they just kinda get the short end of the stick. And people like me who aren't bothered by the idea of playing with lowbies at higher levels because we aren't allergic to fun, can get on with our lives.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Alma_Elma

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, Letter13 said:

The main question is how to bar players based on their current skill level and/or quality of gear, as this is what determines whether a player can take on late-game content--whether they have the knowledge/experience of knowing how to deal with certain enemies and if they have the appropriate tools for dealing with them.

The two main objectives are:

1. Prevent players who cannot pull their own weight from joining late game missions,
2. Ensure that players who join late game content are able to pull their own weight in missions.

The two main steps to achieve these objectives respectively, I feel, are:

1. Prevent missions from starting unless all players in the lobby have unlocked the node (exception for Void/Derelict missions), which prevents taxiing players who have not yet unlocked the node.
2. Include 1~2 solo-only missions per planet, that players need to clear to progress along the starchart (such as the first mission, or a critical-node which needs to be cleared to unlock the boss node or access the nodes leading up to the boss), which act as a test of skill/gear level to make sure the player has powerful enough gear to take on missions in that area.

For the first step, implementing that should be relatively easy, and its purpose is clear.

For the second step, it would require some re-working of one or two missions per planet; solo-only missions could be a special type of infiltration mission where the player has to enable a comms relay that Ordis can use to pick up broadcasts in the sector, or a special sabotage mission on the node before a boss node, etc.

 

 

To rebut "Lock it with mastery" arguments, locking planets behind mastery walls is not a good solution. If a low-MR player has strong enough gear and the experience/knowledge to take on late-game enemies and missions, nothing should prevent them from being able to take on late-game content. They may be low MR by choice--in that they prefer to exclusively use only one or two frames and a handful of weapons; they may have dedicated time to ranking up their mods and collecting rare and powerful mods which give them the ability to take on late/end game content without any issue. Mastery is not indicative of skill/gear/mod level, and because of that it is not a viable way to lock players out of later game content.

I see something like this happening but not to the extent.  I see the Starchart 3.0 as both having a starter, medium, and high ranked zones areas as per the suggestions, but also not really addressing the "ghost town" feel that some players and Devs feel is prevalent with our current matchmaking system. Locking players to zones where they can not leave without mastering progression just locks them to that progression and usually will push their hand to quitting the game as Warframe is quite dense for starting players without more veteran players to help starting out.

While I too think that players trying too hard of content early is an issue, I think that locking content behind things like mastery or conclave ratings as was one of the original intents I believe, just splits the player base and encourages elitism as a game mechanic instead of a bad attitude. This could be lessened by making resources more accessible or scaling less telling but some mission modes are a bit much when the tools that make them more approachable, like Frost for Defense and Excavation; are on final tier planets. While I think its useful to have specialists like Frost be something to work forward to versus generalists like Oberon or Hydroid, this approach further cements the grind aspect of the starter stages.

I look at the trials, some of the hardest current content in the game; and it has had its mastery rank requirement lowered to 0. Now I don't think of Master Rank as being tied to skill, quite the opposite really; but it seems the Devs are wanting these things to be more approachable. I thought it interesting that Sorties are aimed at such a low rank like mastery rank 4, when most non-leeching players won't even have fought through to Pluto, Ceres, or Eris on their own power. I am interested with what the devs are going to do with getting more players involved with less ghost towns; while having more inclusion early - two stated goals I believe - I would think forcing players to be segregated while preventing taxi's in all their forms would further worsen existing disparities.

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

This is a tough topic to get right because there are many ways to go about, with each conflicting with another and creating new problem. The rules must be separated between Public and Private Lobby.

Public Lobby

• Taxiing still viable for alerts and boss nodes, but it do not unlock said nodes. This still allow players to get certain mods and resources (Aura, Nightmares, Nitain, etc) as well as farm for new warframes without feeling too restricted. For example, taxiing a new player to Neptune to fight the Hyennas for Loki parts will only yield Loki parts but not Pluto Nav Segment.
• The next dilemma is resource. A new player can be help with farming new warframes, but he will still not be able to farm the right materials (Neural sensors, orokin cells, etc.) to build it. How can we solve this problem? Perhaps, DE can introduce a "farming key" similar to a void key that drops on Earth. A new player can use these keys to farm materials and resources.
• With regard to preventive measure for ensuring someone will carry his own weight in a mission is too difficult with our current system. The lack of any indication for catalysts, reactors, and forma (essentially a gear check) makes it very difficult to ascertain someone readiness. A potatoed primary at level 15 = max level 30 unpotatoed = ~ level 15 one to two forma, unpotatoed. You can already see the mess. 

Private Lobby

• Taxiing is available for all nodes and there are no gear check. However, nodes should not be unlocked unless they're the within the progression of the new player.

[A1m3r]

2 hours ago, Letter13 said:

• Prevent missions from starting unless all players in the lobby have unlocked the node (exception for Void/Derelict missions), which prevents taxiing players who have not yet unlocked the node.
• Include 1~2 solo-only missions per planet, that players need to clear to progress along the starchart (such as the first mission, or a critical-node which needs to be cleared to unlock the boss node or access the nodes leading up to the boss), which act as a test of skill/gear level to make sure the player has powerful enough gear to take on missions in that area.

I like that idea, actually it would force people to play the game... There shouldn't be that many MRs 21 in the future that don't even know what's "finisher".

[Cray]

2 hours ago, Letter13 said:

Prevent missions from starting unless all players in the lobby have unlocked the node (exception for Void/Derelict missions), which prevents taxiing players who have not yet unlocked the node.

This is a bad idea, even for 3.0, because alerts.

 

If I'm playing with a new player, and a Catalyst drops on Ceres, I'm going to carry their sorry bee-hind through that mission, even if I have to revive them every 10 feet. I will explain to them how it's a high level area, and not to worry about how often they go down, as we'll be doing easier stuff again after this.

[painterman]

There are strong points, i hope a lot of mr 2 with no gear on the future "draco-like" node gets "fixed". Here is my hybrid sugestion

-Each "planet" has a minum mr lock( up to mr6 for the 35-40 nodes)

-Each "planet" hives your around half a mr exp

-For accesing some modes( like sorties) you need a minimun rank composed of your ranked geard and mods you own

This means that you cant do draco untill you are at least familiar with the game, but you can do the sorties as long as you have the gear.

 

[BAY35]

54 minutes ago, heskaroid said:

How about putting MR restrictions depending on most nodes? 

For example,Draco should be restricted up to MR11-more.

 

MR11? Are you joking? That's a bit high if you ask me. I would say 8 at the MOST.

[MagPrime]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said:

This is a tough topic to get right because there are many ways to go about, with each conflicting with another and creating new problem. The rules must be separated between Public and Private Lobby.

Public Lobby

• Taxiing still viable for alerts and boss nodes, but it do not unlock said nodes. This still allow players to get certain mods and resources (Aura, Nightmares, Nitain, etc) as well as farm for new warframes without feeling too restricted. For example, taxiing a new player to Neptune to fight the Hyennas for Loki parts will only yield Loki parts but not Pluto Nav Segment.
• The next dilemma is resource. A new player can be help with farming new warframes, but he will still not be able to farm the right materials (Neural sensors, orokin cells, etc.) to build it. How can we solve this problem? Perhaps, DE can introduce a "farming key" similar to a void key that drops on Earth. A new player can use these keys to farm materials and resources.
• With regard to preventive measure for ensuring someone will carry his own weight in a mission is too difficult with our current system. The lack of any indication for catalysts, reactors, and forma (essentially a gear check) makes it very difficult to ascertain someone readiness. A potatoed primary at level 15 = max level 30 unpotatoed = ~ level 15 one to two forma, unpotatoed. You can already see the mess. 

Private Lobby

• Taxiing is available for all nodes and there are no gear check. However, nodes should not be unlocked unless they're the within the progression of the new player.

Yes, please.

[chaotea]

I dont find that the gear issue is so easy to solve like youve suggested. Ive seen people with early equipment (bratons, ect) pulling the most weight in matches. Equally, some people have end game weapons, but do poorly.

2 hours ago, Letter13 said:

• Prevent players who cannot pull their own weight from joining late game missions,
• Ensure that players who join late game content are able to pull their own weight in missions.

Ar'nt both these the same thing btw? This seems like a difficult thing to enforce. Regardless of any other point, 'pulling your own weight' is fully dependant on the level of skill of the other players in the session. You might be good, but if you join a match with someone who is amazing, you will likely not pull your own weight despite being capable in both skill and equipment of handling the content.

 

2 hours ago, Letter13 said:

• Prevent missions from starting unless all players in the lobby have unlocked the node (exception for Void/Derelict missions), which prevents taxiing players who have not yet unlocked the node.

I agree that this should be a thing, provided the alteration is made so that you can taxi people in fully private matches. If someone actually wants to carry a noob through something, i dont want to prevent that act of kindness.

 

2 hours ago, Letter13 said:

Include 1~2 solo-only missions per planet, that players need to clear to progress along the starchart (such as the first mission, or a critical-node which needs to be cleared to unlock the boss node or access the nodes leading up to the boss), which act as a test of skill/gear level to make sure the player has powerful enough gear to take on missions in that area.

Not sure this is a good idea. Its sound in principle, but it will be easier for some players to move through it than others depending on gear.

Instead, having a 'sortie' like mode on each node, like how you can select 'nightmare' missions as a separate selection on a node, which can only be accessed if players have a certain 'conclave level' (like some special missions require) which can be different for each zone, and mean that people who have early game weapons but good mods wont get left out, and you can grantee a certain player power level. At the same time, by having it separate, you wont be stopping players who are more casual from playing the game.

[WorstPlayer]

How about locking nodes through gametime. If they have 50 hours+, they can access all up to neptune. 100+ to ceres and 150+ all.

[Vohim]

if you want low geared players to get better try come up with a way to give them orokin catalists and reactors steadily  as it is the one thing players cant get outside of events wich  massively affects gear performance 

 

even an mk-1 braton could do well in  moderately high levels if   players had formas and potato on it