The changes to relics mentioned in primetime are actually a great step

[TheSilverZephyr]

With the most recent primetime, I've seen a lot of doom prophecising about the relic system. This comes as a surprise to me, considering that (as the system is now) hunting primes is far less of a grind than it was before, even trade has calmed down with prices not being so outrageous. With relics coming in and out of rotation (through vaulting and unveiling of new primes), we can always have a way to farm for what we want, no matter how long it's been released or put away. No more of the situation with ember currently, since we can keep a steady flow of new pieces to trade for potentially many months after. We also will always have roughly the same number of relics dropping from each source, so the dilution of drop tables will no longer be a concern (no offense t3s rotc, we had our good times). I can personally attest, as can many of you I would wager, that farming for hours and hours when a new prime is released for each individual part could take a huge toll. Now we will soon be able to (according to the comments on primetime) hold onto some extra void traces. These traces can then go into new relics, which acquiring them will be a grind, but not nearly the level that actually grinding prime parts was before. So we can immediately skew the rewards in our favor, no more begrudgingly running your 5th T4I of the night praying for your one chance on one rotation being generous, but doing a quick mission and getting 4 shots at the reward per run with a vastly improved chance. 

The biggest gripe I've heard, however, has been about how grinding new relics for each prime will be a chore. Speaking as someone with 1200 hours in game, I've always had to grind keys. I blew through t3 and t4 keys like they were water, and had to go run excavations and survivals hoping to get the exact key I needed to get a chance at what I wanted. Maybe if you ran with keyshares more you didn't have this issue, but I played with friends and we always ran dry. With the new system we had to go experience farming relics, and it feels no different. It's not painful, it takes some time but what doesn't? I feel that some people have been sitting on their stockpiles and are afraid to go back to farming, but it's not back to square one, it's getting to go actually use all the great gear you've farmed for over the years. It's fun, going to planets that maybe you don't normally visit, running survivals, defenses, excavations, just passively getting keys/relics. Don't treat it like a grind, or it'll feel like one. 

All in all, I just think people need to wait and try the new system, try farming for new relics when they're released, before they judge so harshly. The devs have put together a fun new void system, it'll have quirks, but they'll get ironed out. Don't go lighting fires before the new relics are even here, and remember everything can change. This will be the second iteration of a 100% rework to how the void functions, a system that was in place and was refined for a long time. Give it time, enjoy what we have, and give constructive feedback, but remember we're all just here to be space ninjas. 

If anyone else can share their experiences (especially newer players) of farming relics/primes coming from a drought, let me know how it was. Positive or negative, however it went, because I can only attest to personal and friend experiences.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

DE Rebecca also posted a long detailed post on the subject in a thread. https://forums.warframe.com/topic/677658-relics-20-direct-wordbreaking-by-de/?do=findComment&comment=7560725

[NativeKiller]

I do think that we have to consider the fact that there are 5+ kinds of relics per era.

 

Farming relics could very well be much more difficult and frustrating than expected.

 

...I hope things really do work out, though. :3

 

 

Edited July 22, 2016 by NativeKiller

[TheSteelRat]

Means having to farm for the relics, then farming the Void traces to upgrade the Relics, then farming the primes themselves.

Also means "old relics" will now be sought after, even after you have farmed the parts yourself.

But they then need to make void traces drop more, and raise the cap of void traces you can have.

[NativeKiller]

3 minutes ago, kkinnison said:

Means having to farm for the relics, then farming the Void traces to upgrade the Relics, then farming the primes themselves.

Also means "old relics" will now be sought after, even after you have farmed the parts yourself.

But they then need to make void traces drop more, and raise the cap of void traces you can have.

The Void Trace inventory limit does really seem too harsh at the moment.

 

It doesn't give any wiggle room at all...

[(XBOX)Bortis Badtouch]

you know what i agree with you, cant wait for sotr tired of trying to get prime parts for WEEKS ON END THANKS RNG

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

Id like to see a conversion shop open up on a relay or something, otherwise Im going to have multiple stacks of relics that will never be used because I have all of the things form it. its turned them into crates more or less and im not too much  fan of that.

So, I disagree with you, but I could see it working if specific mechanics are put in place.

[ograzzt]

You assume you will get prime parts faster with new system. You won't. Don't you see it? It's like old rotation C with 7 types of relics per era instead of prime parts. And missions usually drop relics of severals eras, so it will be something like 1/14 chances to get exactly this one relic you need. It's a horrible gring before you even start grinding for prime parts itself.

[Rawbeard]

people crying about having to get relics themselfs where they could leech of keys before is hilarious.

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

3 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

people crying about having to get relics themselfs where they could leech of keys before is hilarious.

What? Sharing isn't leeching. Before you had to be invited to the void at least, this is worse as you are just going to get  leechers hanging around void tear missions or telling lies in recruiting about what relics they will bring. Seems to me that leeching will probably increase.

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

45 minutes ago, ograzzt said:

You assume you will get prime parts faster with new system. You won't. Don't you see it? It's like old rotation C with 7 types of relics per era instead of prime parts. And missions usually drop relics of severals eras, so it will be something like 1/14 chances to get exactly this one relic you need. It's a horrible gring before you even start grinding for prime parts itself.

No they don't see it, blinded by the initial thrill of quickly burning relics and finally getting their ash bp or Bo handle they haven't looked ahead at what's to come.

this is horrible, every 3 months a new rare resource is going to drop, probably on a rotation c. Every prime access another oxium, terruliem etc in the form of relics, only this rare resource is in fact just a small chance to earn an even rarer blueprint. Vets have basically gone through the Great Depression, all those previously looted keys reduced to not much better than alloy plates.

wait to PA drops, that's when peoples eyes will open.

[Tempsgk]

There is too many relics, making farming for a particular one difficult and very time consuming, What DE should had done is properly spread out the relic acquisition  around the star map.   

[TheSteelRat]

Having relics of an era, spread over a single rotation C, means a 14% chance of getting the new relic you actually WANT.  Then add another 2-10% chance to get the Rare prime that you want isn't an improvement

I would be more then willing to do a single non endless mission if i had a high probablity of getting the ONE relic I wanted

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

10 hours ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

DE Rebecca also posted a long detailed post on the subject in a thread. https://forums.warframe.com/topic/677658-relics-20-direct-wordbreaking-by-de/?do=findComment&comment=7560725

After reading for final response to the thread, here are my thoughts.

• I understand the business decision to change the format. It's to make Prime Access more desirable.
• I disagree with her justification
  • Rebecca relate of having to farm for T4Sab when it was first introduce in order for her to farm new Parts.
    • In this case, we initially had to farm keys but were able to stockpile them afterwards. We were able to use those stockpile to farm the next new Primes IMMEDIATELY! There were no new keys introduce per Prime Access.
    • With the new propose system, we HAVE to farm NEW relics EVERYTIME a Prime Access come along. We NO longer are able to prepare for it.

As a veteran player, I spend everyday playing various mission in Warframe and getting various keys to prepare for the next Prime Access. With the new system, I no longer have the desire to play everyday as there is no benefit. I most likely will come back only when new Prime Access come out, farm relics, farm Primes, and then log out till next Prime Access. In my case, I've a tendency to not come back to a game if I take too long of a break. While typing this D&D: Neverwinter just finish downloading on my PS4. I'm curious to see if I'll still be here after 3 months.   

[CroqueMortTime]

Hi guys,

I am not a veteran myself but I understand how it can be a bit frustrating that the new primes will get into new relics that will have to be farmed while thousands others have been stacked before...

Everything is still on hold until tonight's devstream but I was thinking of a suggestion to relieve this strain, so I thought I'd share it with you...

 

How to introduce new primes into new relics without having to farm all the void relics all over again ?

Introducing : Chameleon Relics

Chameleon Relics are broken Void Relics that can emulate an existing Void Relics by mimicking its quantum signature through entanglement. Note that since the explanation on Void Relics being all the rewards and none at the same time before we open them is based on quantum superposition and collapse of the quantum state, quantum entanglement is not out of touch here. The entanglement would be done automatically by the void relic segment during the Relic selection prior to the mission, players wanting to use a chameleon instead of an original would then select first the chameleon and then the original.

Chameleon Relics :
- are farmed like the other void relics
- are era specific
- can be refined with void traces similarly to other relics
- can only emulate a relic of the same era and refinement
- can only emulate a relic that exist in the player's inventory
- lose their entanglement when fissure mission is failed (return as a blank chameleon)
- can be traded

This way, players can choose to stack on Chameleon Relics prior to new prime access release, yet they still have to get at least one of the new relics to be able to emulate it in game.
Unrelated to the addition of new primes, players will also be able to choose whether to use an original void relic or a chameleon one, especially when they have only a few of a kind left. Although it would help to keep grinding the same relic even if you don't have many, it is not much of a grind skip since you still have to grind (or trade) to get those chameleon relics, and you also need the originals.

 

Let me know what you think...

Edit : also the "grind skip" effect can be more or less tweaked by adjusting the rarity of the chameleon relics from the drop tables, which will also modulate their trading prices...

Edited July 22, 2016 by CroqueMortTime

[Mak_Gohae]

i didnt see the prime time and the YT vid got pulled, i dont know if it's back up, but i think the main issue is that the keys got turned into relics and now we got new relics, like, a week after the relic system and that makes some folks annoyed because that means that key werent actually exchanged totally. Because it didnt take into account the new relics.

 

So the big issue i see is this, if we still had the old key system... would DE NOT implement a new key like they are doing now with adding new relics? We dont know.

Another side issue is that relics are totally random drops on what era you get so you just farm relics and pray.

So, essentially, right now we got 2 rng hurdles you have to go through.

We should give feedback and see how they respond instead of flipping the table and screaming about how you are going to leave the game. If you want to leave the game when the system is finally added, cool, but wait till then instead of now where stuff is just barely there.

[Kyronz]

12 hours ago, TheSilverZephyr said:

With the most recent primetime, I've seen a lot of doom prophecising about the relic system. This comes as a surprise to me, considering that (as the system is now) hunting primes is far less of a grind than it was before, even trade has calmed down with prices not being so outrageous. With relics coming in and out of rotation (through vaulting and unveiling of new primes), we can always have a way to farm for what we want, no matter how long it's been released or put away. No more of the situation with ember currently, since we can keep a steady flow of new pieces to trade for potentially many months after. We also will always have roughly the same number of relics dropping from each source, so the dilution of drop tables will no longer be a concern (no offense t3s rotc, we had our good times). I can personally attest, as can many of you I would wager, that farming for hours and hours when a new prime is released for each individual part could take a huge toll. Now we will soon be able to (according to the comments on primetime) hold onto some extra void traces. These traces can then go into new relics, which acquiring them will be a grind, but not nearly the level that actually grinding prime parts was before. So we can immediately skew the rewards in our favor, no more begrudgingly running your 5th T4I of the night praying for your one chance on one rotation being generous, but doing a quick mission and getting 4 shots at the reward per run with a vastly improved chance. 

The biggest gripe I've heard, however, has been about how grinding new relics for each prime will be a chore. Speaking as someone with 1200 hours in game, I've always had to grind keys. I blew through t3 and t4 keys like they were water, and had to go run excavations and survivals hoping to get the exact key I needed to get a chance at what I wanted. Maybe if you ran with keyshares more you didn't have this issue, but I played with friends and we always ran dry. With the new system we had to go experience farming relics, and it feels no different. It's not painful, it takes some time but what doesn't? I feel that some people have been sitting on their stockpiles and are afraid to go back to farming, but it's not back to square one, it's getting to go actually use all the great gear you've farmed for over the years. It's fun, going to planets that maybe you don't normally visit, running survivals, defenses, excavations, just passively getting keys/relics. Don't treat it like a grind, or it'll feel like one. 

All in all, I just think people need to wait and try the new system, try farming for new relics when they're released, before they judge so harshly. The devs have put together a fun new void system, it'll have quirks, but they'll get ironed out. Don't go lighting fires before the new relics are even here, and remember everything can change. This will be the second iteration of a 100% rework to how the void functions, a system that was in place and was refined for a long time. Give it time, enjoy what we have, and give constructive feedback, but remember we're all just here to be space ninjas. 

If anyone else can share their experiences (especially newer players) of farming relics/primes coming from a drought, let me know how it was. Positive or negative, however it went, because I can only attest to personal and friend experiences.

The clarifications of the relic system are just one grind wall too many for me.   Increased grind for reduced rewards are no way to encourage people to stay with the game, perhaps newer players will put up with it.

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

1 hour ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said:

After reading for final response to the thread, here are my thoughts.

• I understand the business decision to change the format. It's to make Prime Access more desirable.
• I disagree with her justification
  • Rebecca relate of having to farm for T4Sab when it was first introduce in order for her to farm new Parts.
    • In this case, we initially had to farm keys but were able to stockpile them afterwards. We were able to use those stockpile to farm the next new Primes IMMEDIATELY! There were no new keys introduce per Prime Access.
    • With the new propose system, we HAVE to farm NEW relics EVERYTIME a Prime Access come along. We NO longer are able to prepare for it.

As a veteran player, I spend everyday playing various mission in Warframe and getting various keys to prepare for the next Prime Access. With the new system, I no longer have the desire to play everyday as there is no benefit. I most likely will come back only when new Prime Access come out, farm relics, farm Primes, and then log out till next Prime Access. In my case, I've a tendency to not come back to a game if I take too long of a break. While typing this D&D: Neverwinter just finish downloading on my PS4. I'm curious to see if I'll still be here after 3 months.   

I agree with everything you have said. this is what happened with me and spirel knights.

I do think, if there was a relic trader (IE a way to exchange one for another, like a token shop) then it might be almost ok, but ya.

the people bothered by this change are the ones with stacks of 40 something keys per key. if they never change, whats the point. that and a year down the line, people will be trying to sell old relics at inflated prices jest like TF2 crates. they are now in fact crates! thay have random rewards, you can buy packages of them, We jest dont have to pay to open them and they dont expire (yet). Now also, this means that the price of all the current prime parts in relics will be going down due to the influx of availability. in short our collections jest became hard to sell, and prime junk if anything, with a higher price going for the relic itself a year from now.

I love this game, and its not the end of the world nor is the sky comeing down, it jest seems like thay are throwing the older players under the bus.

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

45 minutes ago, CroqueMortTime said:

-snip-

Your idea is a good compromise. The main reason to my annoyance is the way information is being release. No, DE isn't "lying" to us but at the same they are surely not telling us the whole truth either. The way things are being handled, the GENERAL information is giving out, and the info is so non-specific that DE can interpret it however they want down the road.  

2 minutes ago, Kyronz said:

The clarifications of the relic system are just one grind wall too many for me.   Increased grind for reduced rewards are no way to encourage people to stay with the game, perhaps newer players will put up with it.

Newer players are willing to put up with it because "they don't know no better".

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said:

Your idea is a good compromise. The main reason to my annoyance is the way information is being release. No, DE isn't "lying" to us but at the same they are surely not telling us the whole truth either. The way things are being handled, the GENERAL information is giving out, and the info is so non-specific that DE can interpret it however they want down the road.  

Newer players are willing to put up with it because "they don't know no better".

More worryingly about this is its now quite clear what the marketing requirements were that got this updated rushed out in its apalling state. They had to have this relic system in place before the new PA dropped. I know they have to make a living and I don't begrudge them it, honestly, but let's be fair, if an Activision or EA released something as bugged as this, just to maximise profits, they would be slaughtered.

extremely interested to see how this plays out on console. Will PA be delayed until we have the relics or will get it on keys?

[Valiant]

13 hours ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

DE Rebecca also posted a long detailed post on the subject in a thread. https://forums.warframe.com/topic/677658-relics-20-direct-wordbreaking-by-de/?do=findComment&comment=7560725

I'm not sure if I missed it but she still doesn't address the primary concern that new Prime's will introduce more grind as we all have to obtain new relics or whatever, partially rendering whatever we have now useless or something. That's what the OP was about.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Naith

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

11 hours ago, ograzzt said:

You assume you will get prime parts faster with new system. You won't. Don't you see it?

I do see it, and it's exactly what I've been expecting since the relic system was announced (I'm surprised people seem surprised). When Vauban prime was released, I already had all the keys I needed to farm him, 5 missions later (yes I got really lucky for once) he was building in the foundry. While convenient, this still felt wrong and I was quickly left thinking, now what do I do...come back in 3 days?

It's a grinding game, I think actually having a more focused grind when a new prime is released will make the eventual acquisition more satisfying/meaningful. Sure it's a little painful to think my 1000+ keys are basically just a ducat/plat source now (already have all existing primes)...but I'll get over it; I think the new system will make for a better game once the rough edges are polished (i.e. you'll have all the resources you need (oxium/cryotic) after grinding for all those relics.

It's not all about getting the new shiny ASAP, it's about having goals, feeling like you earned your in-game gear, and most importantly having fun. If DE can make this new system feel like I am making progress (however slowly), it's an improvement...I never want to run 30+ back to back T3 exterminates ever again.

[Dreadwire]

"Less grind"

Haha

[VoidNomade]

The situation is not enough analysed.

Many variables are missing in the calculation.
The drop chance Increase due to dedicated experienced farming groups for example. Time wise it could possibly mean that even with the time you need to acquire certain relict's with all is still time wise better in the end result of "X time grind=the prime drop you wanted" even in comparison to the old system with having the right keys available!

I think people are really underestimating the possibility to tweak the dices rolled by the right hands. And it is already possible to acquire a radiant in one-two rounds.

The only problem will be how to acquire certain new relict´s due to a C rota drop table. BUT don´t forget that we were also before in a situation where you farmed certain T3-4 Keys for hours C Rota and IN TIME we build up a stockpile of keys that couldn´t even be used effectively any more because we had so maaaaany keys but we didn´t had the chance to tweak the favour of the coin. ;)

Edited July 22, 2016 by VoidNomade
\o/

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

1 hour ago, VoidNomade said:

The situation is not enough analysed.

Many variables are missing in the calculation.
The drop chance Increase due to dedicated experienced farming groups for example. Time wise it could possibly mean that even with the time you need to acquire certain relict's with all is still time wise better in the end result of "X time grind=the prime drop you wanted" even in comparison to the old system with having the right keys available!

I think people are really underestimating the possibility to tweak the dices rolled by the right hands. And it is already possible to acquire a radiant in one-two rounds.

The only problem will be how to acquire certain new relict´s due to a C rota drop table. BUT don´t forget that we were also before in a situation where you farmed certain T3-4 Keys for hours C Rota and IN TIME we build up a stockpile of keys that couldn´t even be used effectively any more because we had so maaaaany keys but we didn´t had the chance to tweak the favour of the coin. ;)

Would you rather

1. OLD - Run Void mission till rotation C, have a chance at getting Prime Parts along the way. Go as long and get as many parts as you possibly can till enemy scaling.
2. NEW - Run Starchart till rotation C, have ZERO chance at getting Prime Parts along the way. Go as long and get as many parts as you possibly can till enemy scaling.

???