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OK, clearly DE aren't understanding WHY we Nullifiers get so much hate

TARINunit9

By TARINunit9,
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Top_Kekkonen

Top_Kekkonen

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47 minutes ago, (PS4)Lacifarus1188 said:

On the fun side though, I was farming relics on neptune with Nekros P yesterday and my shadows consisted of 3 nullies, a bursa, a shield osprey and two sapping ospreys. It was amazing using their own BS against them.

What happens when your nulls clash with enemy nulls?

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Kiyomaru-EN-

Kiyomaru-EN-

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9 hours ago, H3RRD0KT0R said:

I have no problems with nullifiers, sure they bring me some trouble from time to time, but that's what enemies are there for. 

I have more problems with eximus leaching me through walls and with ancient and scorpions hooks getting me even after I knocked them down, dodged them or even escaped to another room already. 

True, those case are really annoying.

13 hours ago, NGarai said:

So have I. Depending on my equipped arsenal and mods, I will gauge the risk. When I make an unsure assault then lose, I can use that experience to plan better next time (and hope my pug-mates rescue me, or know clan mates will). Nulliefiers offer a change in gameplay tempo, they are needed to counter OPness of Tenno. The fact that more than one are spawning in your mission means that you are playing past ~20 minutes or in a high level mission. If downed continuously due to nullifiers, then you are in a mission above your frame rank and mod level, or not making the right tactical choices. Grind/Buy/Trade for the mods or weapons you need to handle that specific mission better. Side thought: When playing above your capacity, expect to be schooled by enemy factions.

P.S. I will concede that in random engagements you will find yourself in a situation surrounded by 3+ nullifiers/Napalm/Ancents that make the situation nie unwinnable given personal gear and/or party gear. Lets not pad the extremes, these are rare.

Don't get me wrong, I am not wanting the Nullifiers to be removed. I just want them to be tweaked, because right now they are better than Arctic Eximi which doesn't make any sense if you think about it. Then couple that with the fact that Nullifiers are considered a "normal" Enemy which makes the game spawn them more often then Arctics, where's the relation in that?

What I mean is:

  • Nullifier Bubbles block Bullets = AE Snow Globes block Bullets
  • Nullifier Bubbles are not penetrated by Punchthrough =/= AE Snow Globes are penetrated by Punchthrough
  • Nullifier Bubbles block Projectile based Powers =/= AE Snow Globes can't (Okay that kinda makes sense, but still)
  • Nullifier Bubbles cannot be popped instantly =/= AE Snow Globes can't
  • Nullifier Bubbles shrink when hit =/= AE Snow Globes don't (Okay, that is a point for team Arctic Eximus)
  • Nullifier Bubbles recover "health" after a while =/= AE Snow Globes don't
  • Nullifier Bubbles last forever if not dealt with =/= AE Snow Globes only last for a set duration

If you ask me, it's a bit nonsensical that a "normal" Enemy unit is way "stronger" than an "advanced" Enemy unit.

 

Also I don't quite agree with the sentiment that you getting downed repeatedly by Nullifiers is a sign that you are in a mission way-above-your-head. Because, let's face it, in normal Corpus mission they are just annoying, in fissure missions on Corpus Tilesets, they are a bane of most Tennos. The spawn counter for them in those missions is nothing short of broken... Or I just always have bad luck.

Here's the thing. As random as these engagements may be, they can pop up in a very annoying frequency, especially within fissure missions... I wish I would have made a screen shot of the utter chaos, which was that one Rescue Fissure...

 

10 hours ago, NGarai said:

If one mob is presenting the largest challenge why is it unreasonable to mod one of your three weapons to handle the situation? How often do you switch weapons? Nearly all of the pugs I've been in, most Tenno stick to a single primary/secondary with the occasion quick melee. We have three weapon options, unless your being a switch hitter (their is an aura for that too), build your auxiliary loadouts to handle the mission diversity you expect to encounter.

Okay... You do have point. It is not unreasonable to mod your weapon accordingly, especially since you got three Setup Slots.
However: In a game where the main gimmick is, that you can play how you want, it doesn't make sense to be forced to bring a Weapon with high ROF along with you, if they don't fit your playstyle. Yes it provides an extra challenge to play with weapon-types you don't actually like, but isn't that, what weapon-centered Sorties are for?

Don't get me wrong, I am a speed junkie if it comes to ROF, but there are times, where I just don't feel like bringing my Twin Grakatas or my Hikou Prime, especially since I haven't really modded them for high level missions - I know, bad move... I really should forma them a couple of times xD.

On a side-not, can someone please check if Arctic Eximi Snow Globes and Nullifier Bubbles block bullets from their allied Forces?

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pauli133

pauli133

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16 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Hey guys! The Silver Grove: Hotfix 5 just went out with a change to nullifiers you may be interested in testing:

As always, let us know what you think! 

I think it's an excellent start, though it doesn't address the underlying issues with Nullifiers in terms of direct gameplay effects, metagaming effects that shape player choices and behavior, and the failure to take advantage of the evolving lore and make Nullifiers a plausible and believable Corpus response to Void Fissures.

The change does make it clear that y'all are paying attention, and kudos for the welcome QoL improvement.

Edited by pauli133
I can English.
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TARINunit9

TARINunit9

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25 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Hey guys! The Silver Grove: Hotfix 5 just went out with a change to nullifiers you may be interested in testing:

As always, let us know what you think! 

For the most part I agree with what @pauli133 said, but this change makes void fissures far more bearable now that they can't teleport right on top of the whole squad and nullify everything nearly as often

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Taramafor

Taramafor

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On 20/08/2016 at 9:21 AM, Cyriann said:

Many will say then that I should just walk in a smash the so fragile Nullifier under it. But the point is... I'm not comfortable about running in open space to tackle a sniper enemy that can OS me past a certain level.

That's why you have to adapt and flank and kill them quickly when you get in and bullet jump the hell out. The whole idea of them is to make players get close to them. That's a change of battlefield tactics. And if you don't like doing it you can leave them for someone else to deal with. That's known as a balanced team with variety (some being far range, some close, others spell casty).

And I've killed plenty on my Ash TY. Too many people spam bladestorm. Deal with the others in the mob first before getting near them. There's not to many that they're overpowered. If there was 5 in a group then I'd complain about it. I can smoke bomb close enough that they're dead by the time I'm near them.

What's really screwing with us are those sorties with 100+ eximus units that drain your energy. I couldn't do anything with Mirage and Limbo because they were spell focused. What's the point in having different play styles if you can't use them late game? At least with range you get to shoot other guys. But spells? Nope. I wouldn't mind if it happened now and then or in smaller numbers, but not all over me 24 freaking 7.

Edited by Taramafor
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Zoracraft

Zoracraft

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36 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Hey guys! The Silver Grove: Hotfix 5 just went out with a change to nullifiers you may be interested in testing:

As always, let us know what you think! 

It's a good start, I guess... Will certainly make fissures less rage-inducing. 

It doesn't really help the multitude issues that come up when the bubble inevitably gets deployed, though. You have plenty of feedback to get ideas for further changes (punch through actually doing what it's supposed to, removing damage caps and scaling the bubbles health a little, giving them a Melee weapon instead of the sniper, making the shield not affect bullets at all (since Bursas already act as physical shields) or even just removing them full stop and replacing them with the much less rage inducing comba and Scrambuses units.), don't give up now that you've done something half decent. We want changes to nullies, not damage control after months of buffing them.

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EvrydayDekay

EvrydayDekay

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Imagine you are a Corpus, sick of taking the Tennos crap yeah? Make a backpack that nullifies their ability to instagib you so easy even on high level content, that seems like a fantastic idea! Then the lazy Tenno cry to their Lotus because they don't understand how to work in a team or are afraid to get close for the second it takes to kill the Nullifier. Guess we better recall all our safety nets and just let our guys get steamrolled endlessly again :< 

I use snipers a lot and I understand not all frames are built to get in to close combat but the Nullifiers are fine, work fine, and look hella foine ;o They break up the "turn off my brain and throw bullets/fireballs just down the lane" playstyle and force you to briefly consider a change in tactic, even if it's a small one.

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Hypernaut1

Hypernaut1

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21 minutes ago, dekay352 said:

Imagine you are a Corpus, sick of taking the Tennos crap yeah? Make a backpack that nullifies their ability to instagib you so easy even on high level content, that seems like a fantastic idea! Then the lazy Tenno cry to their Lotus because they don't understand how to work in a team or are afraid to get close for the second it takes to kill the Nullifier. Guess we better recall all our safety nets and just let our guys get steamrolled endlessly again :< 

I use snipers a lot and I understand not all frames are built to get in to close combat but the Nullifiers are fine, work fine, and look hella foine ;o They break up the "turn off my brain and throw bullets/fireballs just down the lane" playstyle and force you to briefly consider a change in tactic, even if it's a small one.

This is why I hate the pandering. So what now with this change- you just cc and spam kill them before even knowing that they're there?

Why can't the enemy feel like they have any sort of chance against us that doesn't have to do with insane armor and damage numbers? If anything they should've made units more organized and have some semblance of a.I. as if they DONT want to wander mindlessly into a slaughter without a plan.

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IceColdHawk

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2 hours ago, dekay352 said:

They break up the "turn off my brain and throw bullets/fireballs just down the lane" playstyle and force you to briefly consider a change in tactic, even if it's a small one.

Using quanta to hold and point at bubbles to pop them is just as much "tactic" as using your abilities when needed.

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Top_Kekkonen

Top_Kekkonen

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1 minute ago, (XB1)Lorewalker1022 said:

Nullifiers are not effective, but they are super easy to kill even in large clusters or when several show up.

Yes, if you go with a nuke loadout. But sadly if you pick an off meta loadout you'll get severely punished. which only enforces the problem which nullifiers were introduce to "fix".

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(XBOX)Lorewalker1022

(XBOX)Lorewalker1022

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5 minutes ago, Top_Kekkonen said:

Yes, if you go with a nuke loadout. But sadly if you pick an off meta loadout you'll get severely punished. which only enforces the problem which nullifiers were introduce to "fix".

TBH you don't even need a nuke loadout. For one not all nullifiers are of a sufficiently high enough level to need a 'nuke' loadout and for 2 when you do run into nullifiers at a sufficiently high level you really only need one weapon that is effective against them. You can still use a frame you're just testing or a primary that isn't very good or a melee that has no mods. All you need is a secondary that deals good amount of blast damage and be good at sliding and they will go flying. So you don't really need a nuke loadout. You just need one weapon that deals sufficient amount of damage (not even a 'nuke' level of damage) and be good at sliding. That is it.

 

Actually being good at sliding is probably more important than anything else. Even more important than your actual loadout.

Edited by (XB1)Lorewalker1022
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Top_Kekkonen

Top_Kekkonen

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43 minutes ago, (XB1)Lorewalker1022 said:

TBH you don't even need a nuke loadout. For one not all nullifiers are of a sufficiently high enough level to need a 'nuke' loadout and for 2 when you do run into nullifiers at a sufficiently high level you really only need one weapon that is effective against them. You can still use a frame you're just testing or a primary that isn't very good or a melee that has no mods. All you need is a secondary that deals good amount of blast damage and be good at sliding and they will go flying. So you don't really need a nuke loadout. You just need one weapon that deals sufficient amount of damage (not even a 'nuke' level of damage) and be good at sliding. That is it.

 

Actually being good at sliding is probably more important than anything else. Even more important than your actual loadout.

 

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Archwizard

Archwizard

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Some suggestions for Nullifiers:

  • Nullifiers should be considered Eximus units. Having a Nullifier bubble ON TOP of an Arctic Eximus bubble is not only unnecessary, it's overkill.
  • Nullifier bubbles should suspend powers within the bubble, but not actually cancel them out. If an Inaros walks into a bubble, his armor bonus should be functionally 0% as long as he remains within, but he shouldn't be forced to recast upon exit.
  • Nullifier bubbles can be detonated out by shooting/breaking the generator packs on their backs, instantly canceling the aura and dealing damage to all enemies within the sphere. Comba and Scrambus units have a good design of forcing you to actually aim, Nullifiers should do the same and reward you for killing a bigger annoyance.
  • Hard-limit the lower threshold for damage, but remove the upper limit. "Hard-limit" as in prevent small shots entirely, rather than increasing them. By all means allow it to slow down common Assault Rifles and Launchers, but give us a reason to use Snipers and Bows - one that isn't instantly canceled by putting Shred on Boltor. I should be able to drive a rail-fired spike or needle through those bubbles and pop them in one shot.
Edited by Archwizard
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Tesseract7777

Tesseract7777

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4 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Hey guys! The Silver Grove: Hotfix 5 just went out with a change to nullifiers you may be interested in testing:

As always, let us know what you think! 

I am not necessarily sure this will be enough yet, but I think everyone can agree that we are grateful for any small nerf to nullifiers, and we will test and see if this is enough to give them a better place in the game. 

 

Personally I think a few more tweaks may still be needed, but I haven't got a chance to test these changes yet. I think the most important thing to keep in mind here, is that when a huge amount of players are asking for a unit to be either removed or heavily nerfed, that it isn't so much about just difficulty, but people feeling they aren't enjoying the game. 

 

Having one unit that easily cancels all powers may be somewhat flawed in its very execution. Comba and Scrambus make sense. Taking away ALL abilities, does not make so much sense. It's too cheese. It's like playing a make believe game with a kid and it escalates to the point that everyone is a "never get killed bug". I hope one thing the devs consider from our feedback is the idea that maybe if nullifiers are making that many people detest playing Corpus, that perhaps the nullifier needs to be seriously retooled and not just tweaked. 

I know people are proud of the work they do, and proud of their ideas -- no one wants to admit an entire enemy idea is mostly flawed the way it is. But is continuing to stubbornly keep it mostly as is, worth the amount of players that will continue to get more and more frustrated, who will hold off on playing Corpus... and who will eventually quit because in a game mostly about superpowers, one unit in just one faction can take literally all of them away. And you have to slot very, very specific counters for them much of the time. 

I think certain higher ups at DE need to have a soul searching conversation about nullifiers, and maybe admit that they were wrong to put them in the game the way they are, and to keep buffing them the way they have been. This kind of feels a bit little too little, little too late, if you know what I mean. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying there isn't time to fix this, but to fix this, I think some higher ups need to admit nullifiers as they are are a real problem for the game (if so many players hate them, then yes its a problem). And need to admit that they need a true rework. 

 

And there is an elephant in the room that I feel isn't being discussed here, and I feel like overall the nullifiers are a frustrating enemy that are, with all respect, a lazy and insulting solution to a problem that the players didn't create. Power creep has happened more and more over time. Our abilities have become insanely powerful. This is not our fault. The powers were not created by the players. However, the issue is that once we became too strong, I understand the developers wanted us to have a challenge, so they made an enemy that takes all our abilities away and just kept making it stronger and stronger. 

 

This was entirely the WRONG choice. While it may take longer, the real solution is to balance all overpowered abilities. I have seen great strides toward these with the nerfs of Trin, Excal and so many more recently. This is a good thing, we need balance. But I think the devs need to acknowledge that to keep Warframe balanced and around long term, nullies will likely have to be heavily nerfed. People's patience with them is at a limit, and you can't expect it to last forever. On the other hand, players need to acknowledge taht with a nullifier buff, is going to have to come a lot more ability nerfs. Nullifiers were created due to continuing Tenno power creep... if we are going to heavily nerf or turn off nullies, then we are going to have to heavily balance all OP abilities as well. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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