Dev Stream 80: Carrier Changes feedback thread [Megathread]

[(XBOX)Oussii]

2 minutes ago, WEREsandrock said:

my argument to back this is that the vast majority is using carrier while ignoring other sentinels and companions. This is NOT what balance looks like. But I am repeating myself...

FYI. i use carrier on 70% of the missions, but also i use helios and sometimes djinn.

But don't expect me to use deathcube bro

[(XBOX)Oussii]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)T0katax said:

Could you enlighten me to how helios oneshots every enemy in the game? (Build for him and his weapon?^^)

Use any weapon you like, don't get stuck with the sentinel weapon

I use the same one on all sentinels

[WERElektro]

Just now, (XB1)Oussii said:

FYI. i use carrier on 70% of the missions, but also i use helios and sometimes djinn.

But don't expect me to use deathcube bro

70% is a lot tho.

why no love for the cube of deth tho? I always used the dethcube back when you couldn't seperate the sentinel weapon from the sentinel itsself.

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

Im furious about this. DE, why do you feel like anything good in the game needs to be destroyed? Vacuum being broken into 3 mods is basically taking the most used thing in the game, and turning it into another chore. Do you realize how many forma it takes just to be able to use a fully modded companion? Now to use vaccuum we need it taking up 3 slots or to sacrifice the point of using it. And you're doing it while a bunch of us are pissed you just threw endgame out the window? Are you serious? Are you trying to lose players? I'm sick of everything being a hidden nerf, an inconvenience, a slap in the face. We aren't stupid. Even when you 'give us what we want' you have to break it so bad we don't want it, it's insulting. Quit selling us hype on nerfs. Quit acting like people who play your game more than you work on it can't spot nerfs from a mile away. Most importantly, don't take things the community asked for, corrupt it into a bad deal n then act like you had such a great idea. I seriously needed calm down sessions after watching this devstream. It's almost like you thought this bad idea was a good distraction from endgame being gone and it being a huge issue which you can barely address let alone fix, like this is you throwing us a bone. It's not. For once just give us a non BS version of what we want, a universal vaccuum, either 1 mod that can be used across companions, or make it innate on frames. If you really need to make 3 mods, make a sentinel, kubrow, n kavat version. Quit being disrespectful to your players. I used to feel like you as developers worked with the community, and I wanted to support you. Now I feel like you are fighting the community, and trying to fool us, using pr and hype to sell us nerfs, and I can't support that. 

 

Edit: also, don't pretend this 3 mod thing is to give players options, it's not, it's to reduce the effectiveness of vaccuum, to have the same effect split 3 ways and limit our access to the full version. If you really were going for multiple viable options, give additional effects. Ie: 3 vaccuums that do 3 different x effect for y seconds everytime it picks up z item, but the vaccuum still works to its current full extent. You don't have to make everything worse.

Edited September 19, 2016 by (XB1)ashes of suvius

[Shy0]

didn't you know? the whole purpose of devstreams is to hype stuff. nothing serious is discussed, mistakes are buried, game-defining issues are ignored.

just give frames or all companions including kavats and kubrows (had to spell it out clearly, since DE cannot understand simple things like this sometimes) increased pick-up range (might have to rework chesa kubrows and mag's passive though, since they'd be redundant), then do whatever you want with carrier's precept. the splitting-vacuum-into-three crap is a rubbish idea. please don't "fix" vacuum like how you "fixed" archwing or LoS or viver or draco - you just made things worse or shifted the problem elsewhere.

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by Shy0

[Otakuwolf]

That's another reason why the vaccum mod should be an innate ability of all Warframes instead

[Gentrash]

The nerf is not needed. Why would they think it is? 

Why would they make even more work for themselves?

I swear it feels they are nerfing it out of spite. 

 

It doesn't add anything to the game by splitting vacuum up.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Gentrash

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

1 hour ago, WEREsandrock said:

Whiteknighting?

attacks on players?

Why are you so aggressive? Offended because I have an opinion? I already stated that it's just an opinion.

Look, I really don't want to fight.

I think that vacuum is op, and it should either be removed or split. It's my opinion. And my argument to back this is that the vast majority is using carrier while ignoring other sentinels and companions. This is NOT what balance looks like. But I am repeating myself...

But if your opinion of it being op is based on the fact everyone uses carrier while ignoring other companions, wouldn't it just being universal solve that? I'm not getting the need to split it. And I'm not seeing why everything used most must be destroyed instead of under used things getting improved. We shouldn't strive for everything to be lowered to a mediocre standard which is on the level of "not good enough to use"

[Tizodd]

1 hour ago, WEREsandrock said:

...I think that vacuum is op, and it should either be removed or split. It's my opinion. And my argument to back this is that the vast majority is using carrier while ignoring other sentinels and companions. This is NOT what balance looks like. But I am repeating myself...

How on Earth can you consider something like looting op?  Looting doesn't damage enemies, looting doesn't ruin gameplay for teammates, looting doesn't make you unkillable, etc.  So again I ask you...what makes looting op in your opinion?

Most fast paced horde shooters have area looting.  Warframe's current loot system is just wrong for this type of game.  We're constantly jumping around, shooting at enemies, avoiding enemy fire, using melee attacks, using slam attacks, using powers, etc.  We shouldn't have to also stop and run literally on top of every piece of loot we see.

I agree with you on the fact that many people use Carrier (Vacuum) is not good balance.  That's why frames should have innate area looting.  There's no reason something as simple as looting should have to be tied in to a companion or mod.

Check out this video by Quiette Shy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OUq2rqJ8mE).  It's a quick watch at only 3:29 minutes but explains the issue pretty well.  I don't know why DE insists on making this so complicated.

 

[Danjal777]

Hear me O' brothers and sisters of Warframe!

We have issues to discuss!  What is the problems here?

Entitlement?

Loot?

Sentinels?

To answer these questions, we need to truly tear the problem down into its base components, loon at them and offer solutions.  The developers may not use our suggestions, but the words will be heard and may just influence the decision making process in some small way.  

1- we are spoiled brats, just read the last few pages of players throwing a temper tantrum about something that hasn't even happened yet.  Truth be told, splitting the vacuum into three parts will change nothing, as we will ignore the health and energy version and probably the ammo version as well, sticking solely to collecting credits and resources.  The only time I feel that the vacuum for all argument has some level of consideration, is console players due to controllers.  I have a PC and keyboard/mouse, and I can do wacky acrobatics to pick up whatever I want from unrealistic angles.  DE will not give you an automatic loot buff.  This segues into my next point.

Loot - why is it even in Warframe?  Shouldn't we just get resources for doing the mission?  So many problems exist because of this loot concept.  Enemies should not be carrying bushels of nano spores.  Maybe you get a tally at the end of the mission based on enemies killed, cabinets opened, boxes smashed.  Ammo is the same way, the ugly little brightly colored auto ammo boxes that lay around that can somehow replenish the ammo of both a dera and a Grakata is an oversimplified game mechanic that should be phased out of Warframe.  I don't claim to know the perfect answer to this issue, but once again, maybe having to bring extra ammo into a mission would do us good.  Picking up orange Legos off of the ground?  Not so much.  

Sentinels- My final point is the value of a sentinel.  How effective should they be?  Are they a small bonus or a strategically impactful decision?  Look at how effective a shade is at making you stealthy, how detthy is the death cube?  Look at when diriga came out and how powerful he was, it was like having a pet super sniper, killing things at insane ranges at less than one shot per second.  I actually had a squad of guys with it playing a defense, and all we had to do was stand there and sip tea as our sentinels did all of the work.  This can't be the standard of sentinels, so they needed it into the ground.  He has since been adjusted, a d is impactful, but not necessary.  And that should be their guidelines on sentinels.  Think about it, what if shade just made you invisible all the time?  What if deth cube had automatic death on  vaporize with no cooldown?  What if carrier sucked up every object dropped on the ground within five meters?  

[NativeKiller]

1 hour ago, Danjal777 said:

Hear me O' brothers and sisters of Warframe!

We have issues to discuss!  What is the problems here?

Entitlement?

Loot?

Sentinels?

To answer these questions, we need to truly tear the problem down into its base components, loon at them and offer solutions.  The developers may not use our suggestions, but the words will be heard and may just influence the decision making process in some small way.  

1- we are spoiled brats, just read the last few pages of players throwing a temper tantrum about something that hasn't even happened yet.  Truth be told, splitting the vacuum into three parts will change nothing, as we will ignore the health and energy version and probably the ammo version as well, sticking solely to collecting credits and resources.  The only time I feel that the vacuum for all argument has some level of consideration, is console players due to controllers.  I have a PC and keyboard/mouse, and I can do wacky acrobatics to pick up whatever I want from unrealistic angles.  DE will not give you an automatic loot buff.  This segues into my next point.

Loot - why is it even in Warframe?  Shouldn't we just get resources for doing the mission?  So many problems exist because of this loot concept.  Enemies should not be carrying bushels of nano spores.  Maybe you get a tally at the end of the mission based on enemies killed, cabinets opened, boxes smashed.  Ammo is the same way, the ugly little brightly colored auto ammo boxes that lay around that can somehow replenish the ammo of both a dera and a Grakata is an oversimplified game mechanic that should be phased out of Warframe.  I don't claim to know the perfect answer to this issue, but once again, maybe having to bring extra ammo into a mission would do us good.  Picking up orange Legos off of the ground?  Not so much.  

Sentinels- My final point is the value of a sentinel.  How effective should they be?  Are they a small bonus or a strategically impactful decision?  Look at how effective a shade is at making you stealthy, how detthy is the death cube?  Look at when diriga came out and how powerful he was, it was like having a pet super sniper, killing things at insane ranges at less than one shot per second.  I actually had a squad of guys with it playing a defense, and all we had to do was stand there and sip tea as our sentinels did all of the work.  This can't be the standard of sentinels, so they needed it into the ground.  He has since been adjusted, a d is impactful, but not necessary.  And that should be their guidelines on sentinels.  Think about it, what if shade just made you invisible all the time?  What if deth cube had automatic death on  vaporize with no cooldown?  What if carrier sucked up every object dropped on the ground within five meters?  

Giving feedback and sharing opinion is now called throwing a tantrum like spoiled brats?

 

Don't players/paying customers have the right to state their opinions on how they think the game should be developed?

 

Okay... Whatever you say...

Edited September 19, 2016 by NativeKiller

[Danjal777]

Just now, NativeKiller said:

Giving feedback and sharing opinion is now called throwing a tantrum like spoiled brats?

 

Don't gamers/paying customers have the right to state their opinions on how they think the game should be developed?

 

Okay... Whatever you say...

When you demand something you know you won't get, it comes off like a kid in a grocery store screaming on the floor about not getting candy.  This is a strategy, sure, but when you do this it tends to invalidate your credibility.  Instead, try to articulate your source of frustration and how this particular solution may benefit.  I believe these are the reasons DE thinks we as a player base are only good at identifying the problems.  Trust me, my friend, I understand that most players feel that all items that fall on the floor should be in their inventory, that's why I proposed that there not be any items on the floor...and that they just go into your inventory, without a vacuum.

[Death_Master_]

31 minutes ago, Danjal777 said:

We have issues to discuss!  What is the problems here?

Entitlement?

Loot?

Sentinels?

 I think problem is Sentinels - they are underpowered and stupid(i mean their AI is far from good).

There are only few reliable action mods on them - vacuum, coolant leak, sanctuary, animal instinct.

Other action mods are too random or have big cooldown so i can't even rely on them.

[NativeKiller]

28 minutes ago, Danjal777 said:

When you demand something you know you won't get, it comes off like a kid in a grocery store screaming on the floor about not getting candy.  This is a strategy, sure, but when you do this it tends to invalidate your credibility.  Instead, try to articulate your source of frustration and how this particular solution may benefit.  I believe these are the reasons DE thinks we as a player base are only good at identifying the problems.  Trust me, my friend, I understand that most players feel that all items that fall on the floor should be in their inventory, that's why I proposed that there not be any items on the floor...and that they just go into your inventory, without a vacuum.

How do you know that giving criticism and feedback won't affect the decision of the developers?

 

IIRC, at the time of the Vivergate, the developers had reversed changes that they had gone through when the community outcry was large enough.

 

Yes, that's right, the developers had decided to reverse a change that they had "already implemented", due to community outcry.

 

If so, why wouldn't our criticism and feedback be able to affect something that is nothing but a "potential" change that has only been proposed and haven't even been implemented yet?

Edited September 19, 2016 by NativeKiller

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

41 minutes ago, Danjal777 said:

Hear me O' brothers and sisters of Warframe!

We have issues to discuss!  What is the problems here?

Entitlement?

Loot?

Sentinels?

To answer these questions, we need to truly tear the problem down into its base components, loon at them and offer solutions.  The developers may not use our suggestions, but the words will be heard and may just influence the decision making process in some small way.  

1- we are spoiled brats, just read the last few pages of players throwing a temper tantrum about something that hasn't even happened yet.  Truth be told, splitting the vacuum into three parts will change nothing, as we will ignore the health and energy version and probably the ammo version as well, sticking solely to collecting credits and resources.  The only time I feel that the vacuum for all argument has some level of consideration, is console players due to controllers.  I have a PC and keyboard/mouse, and I can do wacky acrobatics to pick up whatever I want from unrealistic angles.  DE will not give you an automatic loot buff.  This segues into my next point.

Loot - why is it even in Warframe?  Shouldn't we just get resources for doing the mission?  So many problems exist because of this loot concept.  Enemies should not be carrying bushels of nano spores.  Maybe you get a tally at the end of the mission based on enemies killed, cabinets opened, boxes smashed.  Ammo is the same way, the ugly little brightly colored auto ammo boxes that lay around that can somehow replenish the ammo of both a dera and a Grakata is an oversimplified game mechanic that should be phased out of Warframe.  I don't claim to know the perfect answer to this issue, but once again, maybe having to bring extra ammo into a mission would do us good.  Picking up orange Legos off of the ground?  Not so much.  

Sentinels- My final point is the value of a sentinel.  How effective should they be?  Are they a small bonus or a strategically impactful decision?  Look at how effective a shade is at making you stealthy, how detthy is the death cube?  Look at when diriga came out and how powerful he was, it was like having a pet super sniper, killing things at insane ranges at less than one shot per second.  I actually had a squad of guys with it playing a defense, and all we had to do was stand there and sip tea as our sentinels did all of the work.  This can't be the standard of sentinels, so they needed it into the ground.  He has since been adjusted, a d is impactful, but not necessary.  And that should be their guidelines on sentinels.  Think about it, what if shade just made you invisible all the time?  What if deth cube had automatic death on  vaporize with no cooldown?  What if carrier sucked up every object dropped on the ground within five meters?

1.  Some are some are most are not.  It is easy to see this is a bad change.  If you want to continue to use carrier exactly as it is now it is easy to see this is a massive nerf.  Were you here for vivergate?  Were we spoiled then?  Was DE wrong when they said they made a mistake the unequivocally made the game worse?  Also Steve suggested in the past making vacuum universal.  So it's not like it is out of the question.

2.  I agree with this one.  In addition health orbs and energy orbs could be retired for a flat regeneration.

3.  Power creep has made companions very powerful.  The fact the new kavats have very powerful abilities that most choose to ignore in favor of a QoL upgrade I think says a lot.  My seven forma Kubrow just sprints inside nullifier shields and not only rips the nully to shreds but everything else inside the bubble as well.  The adarza give a 60% additive crit bonus which is enough to let any primary weapon in the game red crit.  The Smeeta is just stupid good.  "Hey free red crits for everything including warframe abilities, oh yeah and free double affinity and resources."  It's like they were designed specifically to test and see if they could make abilities powerful enough to get most players to stop using vacuum.  No they couldn't.  Players chose to keep using something that removed interruptions from gameplay over using something that was OP.  So to answer you question, I don't think it really matters how powerful our companions are as long as they do not distract from the game.

[Volinus7]

I recommend you guys to play Jetpack Joyride while reading this thread it will add so much umami to your drama palate. 

[(PSN)TempleofDog]

If I am reading this correctly then even Carrier Prime will require all 3 mods to stay the same. I don't like this idea. I would prefer Carrier stays the same and make mods available for the other sentinels. 

[Glitch_Kitten]

Just remove the vacuum as a mod entirely and make it a passive of every warframe, loot is a core part of warframe and having something as simple and desirable as a vacuum restricted to any of the sentinels is limiting the players.

[Death_Master_]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

The fact the new kavats have very powerful abilities that most choose to ignore in favor of a QoL upgrade I think says a lot.

Powerful? Yeah. Reliable? Nope!

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

The Smeeta is just stupid good.  "Hey free red crits for everything including warframe abilities, oh yeah and free double affinity and resources."  

Its like "Hey, no enemies around - have the red crit buff! Just finished collecting loot or no enemies around to get loot? Have loot buff! Enemy is near behind a wall? I wont open locker, i will stupidly sit and Khhsss at him! Enemies around? I will just sit right under you and maybe bite one or two of them coming near or just wait he kills me! Mutalists did deadly pond? Sure, i jump there!"

[Eminem2420]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 2:43 PM, Demon.King said:

Also, ignoring this change, it would still be mostly useless because of stats. Carrier is the only sentinel in the game that can survive anything. The other sentinels need buffs badly.

This is why I use kubrows. I never have to worry about them dying.

[Eminem2420]

I don't care about sentinels. I use kubrows and kavats. I just came here for the comments. People crying their crutch is being taken away is funny. xD

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

7 minutes ago, Eminem2420 said:

I don't care about sentinels. I use kubrows and kavats. I just came here for the comments. People crying their crutch is being taken away is funny. xD

Just out of curiosity what about carrier makes it a crutch?  Before you say health, energy and ammo, please consider the fact I enter every mission with 200 of each large restore.

[LuckyCharm]

Why not...just have one vacuum mod....? is it so game breaking that we must now stuff 2 more mods into our already full sentinels? (assuming they're forma'd and modded like mine is) I don't honestly think I'd have room. And with the way mods work, I can almost guarantee that there's going to be bugs with pickup conflicts since the first mod gets priority even though other things may be closer. 

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

59 minutes ago, Death_Master_ said:

Powerful? Yeah. Reliable? Nope!

Its like "Hey, no enemies around - have the red crit buff! Just finished collecting loot or no enemies around to get loot? Have loot buff! Enemy is near behind a wall? I wont open locker, i will stupidly sit and Khhsss at him! Enemies around? I will just sit right under you and maybe bite one or two of them coming near or just wait he kills me! Mutalists did deadly pond? Sure, i jump there!"

Every companion has it's issues, though I would argue the adarza is quite reliable.  The Smeeta is an RNG cat so what can you expect?  I was just answering his question on the role of sentinels.  QoL trumps power.

Edited September 19, 2016 by (PS4)Final_Dragon01

[Troll_Logic]

13 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Oh my gosh. This entire thread seems really aggressive to me

I doubt that, but let's see why.

13 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

OK, Carrier users are mostly lazy. Warframe is a video game, so why bash people for being lazy? All of are lazy sometimes. Be lazy if you wanna be, and  be ashamed about it.

My problem with the Carrier dilemma is the people who act as if Carrier is a need. They act as if they're restricted because they need Carrier. I and many others have managed to get all of the items we need without Carrier. It's not difficult, and you may choose to try to do so. However, if you're gonna be lazy, please don't complain about the drawbacks of your laziness. 

Oh, you just want attention.

 

Gotcha.