Dev Stream 80: Carrier Changes feedback thread [Megathread]

[Trentiel]

1 minute ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Fair enough, although when I mained the rakta cernos I didn't have a problem with ammo. It's true that bows are about the closest thing in the game to having a genuine problem with wasting drops.

Still, removing the vacuum mod has always been possible. Even people asking for innate vacuum to warframes also ask for an option to turn it off. So I'm not sure why people are concerned. Nobody is trying to force people to use vacuum, they are only asking for more access to it.

It happens with pistols and other odd weapons that use the sniper ammo drops too. Castanas, Talons, and the like. It really doesn't come up that often, and when it does it's just a gameplay obstacle. I don't personally care, but if we had flexible caps it would feel fair that you ran out of ammo, and not because you had bad timing on item pick-ups you had little to no control over in the moment.

5 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

I do agree that infinite range vacuum would allow some exploitative gameplay. I'm okay with the current range, I just don't want to be limited to one companion in order to make use of it. Although one suggestion I kinda liked was making it so that when someone picks up a mod, everyone in xp range gets the mod. It would fix having mods drop in the floor, at very least. After all, once a mod drops, you've beaten the rng. There's no need for more struggle to get that mod, you've already earned it. not getting it because of floor geometry is inexcusable.

I've heard that suggestion too. I think around the warframe reddit. It's an idea that needs boosting. I wish DE would see it. EXP-share range could be Pick-up share range. For Mods, resources, and credits at least. We can leave ammo, energy, and health on the individual level.

I'm sure none of this is set in stone right now. Scott didn't even elaborate on his statement during the devstream either. I bet we'll see a few more devstreams until this even gets implemented.

[Biscotchi]

I'm all in favor of making vacuum available to all sentinels (even though it SHOULD be an innate passive on all frames), but making it three separate mods better be some sort of prank, because that would just be one big middle finger right in the face of the players. 

Seriously DE, make your game MORE fun, not less. Just make vacuum a passive on all frames so players have to spend less time tediously picking up drops and more time playing the FUN parts of the game.

[VonDodo]

What they proposed is actually reducing the quality of life of the game.

Improving diversity at the cost of the game becoming unfun is a terrible idea that plagued old korean mmorpg but was already surpassed.

Taking loot without a carrier is unfun to the point people prefer to die when their carrier dies....figure out what people will do if they remove even that.

 

Other than that with all problems of endgame and bugs, warframe has, there are better things to do than worrying about companions.

For example, most people hate kavats/kubrow due to DNA stabilizers.... their usage wuld increase if they get rids of those that doesn t add anything to the game.

 

What it surprise me is that what they are doing is a common greedy moves other companies do to get more moneys....

Ex: they reduce your inventory to sell more slots, yet DE is only making the game worse for no reason at all.....

[WERElektro]

Overrated? yes, Useless? no,

I also welcome the Vacuum change.

I played warframe just fine before Carrier got released, I will play it just fine when Vacuum gets "Nerfed" (well it is a little nerf).

As I said on another thread: Vacuum is op the way it is now; Most people only use carrier because other sentinels just can't compete with it the usefullness of the Vacuum skill. DE sure knows the ratio of players using carrier compared to players using other sentinels/ companions. I am sure that the vast majority is using carrier simply because of vacuum.

Splitting it into 3 will open up new possibilities.

And now, lots of people are butthurt cuz their op toy is getting "nerfed".

I also use carrier.... the vacuum skill IS more usefull compared to other sentinel skills. But I can deal with changes. I can welcome them.

[Pyrippo]

I'll be the first to admit that Vacuum is extremely useful and I can understand why everyone would want to have it as an in-built warframe mechanic.

But I also understand why DE seems to be 'over-addressing' the issue. This 3-mod concept is about diversifying the options/ builds/ priorities that we have as players- not about spitting in our faces. I'm guessing that what DE is conceptualizing, is reworking Vacuum's functionality towards diversifying options that we have going into missions. I don't know about you, but having energy and health orbs smashed against my face when I'm short only a few points leads to a giant waste of resources. Equally, if you have a rifle that isn't overly ammo hungry and you're still picking up ammo boxes despite the fact that you've only emptied a small clip- you're wasting a significant amount of pickups. I like the idea of having control over the drops that I pick up. 

That said, I don't think that this is the right way to go about diversifying and distributing Vacuum to our used gear. As has been reiterated countless times on this thread, converting Vacuum into 3 mods means less mod space for the stuff that matters. Sentinels need all the mod space that they can get, for the sake of survivability. Implementing this change would force sentinels below a usable threshold for a number of players (if they did want to focus on the Vacuum precept). 

Secondly, I would be an advocate for bringing making Vacuum a passive. But the fact is, its a cheap move. Sure, the functionality is sorely needed in a game designed to be as fast paced as Warframe. But the change would feel empty. When I started playing this game over 3 years ago I appreciated the fact that I had to stop and slow down to pick up the stuff that I needed for crafting. If I rushed through missions, and didn't actively collect the resources I needed, then that was my problem. I didn't consider that to be an issue with the game.

Following that I've been considering an alternative: a new attachable mechanic to any warframe or sentinel. Attainable in game via a blueprint in the market (none of this Simaris grind-wall crap like for Exilus slots). This way, new players wouldn't start off by cheesing their resource gathering at the start of the game, but the functionality would still be extremely accessible (and in bulk to those who are already well established). It would be a foundation to deal with this whole issue, just as long as it didn't get monetized by DE. That would suck.

It would be, yes, another mechanic to introduce and incorporate- but - its better to address it now as an actual, meaningful mechanic than as a cheap band-aid to speed up the play of the game. If you want to be able to pick up drops with an inbuilt Vacuum you should have to put something in to get it. Just my 2 cents. 

[Silvus-Sol]

I'm fine with everything except the splitting of Vacuum into 3 separate mods. That's a terrible idea for so many reasons. Please DE, please do not split Vacuum up like that.

[k05h]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Keiji_Haku said:

It takes 5-10 seconds for an enemies around 40-60 to annihilate the defense objective. Any higher and well no offense but you're sentinel is probably close to dead if not already.

I cannot agree. I take my carrier up to sortie 3 with r10 enhanced vitality and r10 calculated redirection. Only in radiation harzard sortie does my carrier need one or two health pizzas. As my carrier is build for pure utility (vacuum, coolant leak, medi-ray, guardian, sanctuary, animal instinct) I always try to keep it alive for as long as possible. 

I dont mind being called lazy for using carrier. I think it is perfectly human to go for the easy way. It is similar to why Akad and Bere are used for weapon leveling instead of doing "normal" missions or why some people rather buy Prime Access than farm for parts. 

And at the end of the day Warframe is a video game I play it for fun and I can enjoy myself much better if some little minion picks up stuff for me. 

[Guest]

14 hours ago, MrM1 said:

So since DE wanted to rip Carrier's Vacuum into 3 different mods appart, people started to complain. Some even wanted to have the Vacuum on every single Sentinel / Companion. I mean: Why? Carrier himself does not deal that much damage (compare him with Helios: Helios can one-shot pretty much every enemy in the game, when modded right) and his Vacuum is kinda the only reason why people use him. I know that the pick up range is amazing but not that useful, I'd say. I don't use Carrier and can collect still all the loot. Maybe it takes more time but seriously, complaining about the fact that DE wants to remove the Vacuum, isn't really amazing, you know... I think DE finally realized that Vacuum / Carrier is way too overused / overrated, so people will finally manage to collect the loot on the old-school way. I'd say that's a good move by DE. And also we don't know what these 3 new mods will be. Maybe DE just split up the Vacuum into the ability to collect just 1 type if loot (resources, mods/Endo, credits) at the same time.

let me share this way, sometimes the development is useless which is created because some announcements focus on things which i dont care because it doesnt carry or develop the game in general, lots of the development is less to do for the devs as well as a lot to run for us

so, it would be great if DE stop fooling us, because it creates only one thing, that a cashcows like other and (also known as "real-cash-player) me will leave playing warframe because feeling fooled :-)

even that nobody at DE cares about, i shared it ...
 

i cant  be more useless to split up vacuum from the state of the art it is now, if DE is so intelligent, which is for shure a fact, then they should not give what they destroy afterwards and sell it to the comunity as a development, thats a laugh, right ?

wait, do we have 1st april ? =)))

i have also another theme here, maybe im in the wrong thread but i throw it in:

the devs shared "enemyscaling", i give it back with alll what we get right now is "ENEMYSPAMMING", the "enemyscaling"-development is another bad joke because beside listening to "lots" of interesting talkings it ends up that lots of missions are simply spammed with enemies ...

ENEMYSCALING is different ... im not shure which mind or age the entire players have or a lot of new forumwriters have, i have my doubts that they are 17 ^^)

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by Guest

[Silvus-Sol]

Warframe is a fast pased game about being a highly mobile bada** space ninja. So why the hell do we have to stop and run around like a headless chicken in order to find and collect our loot? It completely clashes with the flow of the action. Archwing is even worse. Trying to hunt for loot in a large open 3 dimensional area is a nightmare and it completely halts the action.

Vacuum doesn't entirely solve the issue, but it most definitely helps. IMO, they should make Vacuum an Exilus mod for Warframes as well as a Sentinel mod; and it should be ONE mod, not split into 3. Splitting it up is a terrible idea. It makes everything worse and more complicated and is completely unnecessary. And Archwings should have a built in 100m range Vacuum. Loot should not even be an issue or concern in Archwing's environment.

And OP, it's not about being lazy, it's about wanting to focus on the actual gameplay. It's about wanting to keep the flow, to stay in the action, without having to worry about missing a good portion of the loot. If you enjoy stopping, looking at the ground, and running directly over top of little containers, then go right ahead; but don't get all uppity because some of us choose to make that task easier.

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by Silvus-Sol

[VonDodo]

1 hour ago, WEREsandrock said:

 

And now, lots of people are butthurt cuz their op toy is getting "nerfed".

I also use carrier.... the vacuum skill IS more usefull compared to other sentinel skills. But I can deal with changes. I can welcome them.

you are worong on 2 sides:

 

1) when in lack of a decent argument abuse the "butthurt"...word. It makes your post appear for what it is.

2) Carrier doesn t make anyone stronger. Its a QoL sentinel. If everybody is using it is to relieve a nuisance that should never exist in the first place.

 

I could porvide similar ideas  that most old FAILED mmorpg developers would come with....

Reducing the amount of drops people can carry.

Locking you out of weapons and frames once you used for a certain amount of time to improve diversity

Reucing ammo to make ammo mutations more viable and so on.

 

Would they enforce desired behavior? sure they would....but they would also make the game more UNFUN.

What they did well until today was avoiding enforcing nerfs to thing that doesn t hurt gameplay.

I can make many examples how similar ideas happened when other mmo companies started to fire devs and change them with economists and various managers who never played VG other than candy crush maybe. Start with ArenaNet to name one.

Edited September 19, 2016 by VonDodo

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Genoscythe said:

The old-school way is obnoxious and boring for most players, easy as that. If you enjoy running around a room everytime something drops, I respect that. But do not insult people who want to get their stuff done quickly and actually concentrate on the mission.

 

I had to play the game a fair while the old fashioned way before carrier was released (and vacuum was changed/fixed several times until it got its present form), and I think having to run over every pickup in a game where rooms are most likely covered in pickups is not really making the game any better nor adding anything to gameplay.

thx, couldnt say it better

if we get the same vacuum we have now for the carrier for every sentinel without any changes like new mods to run for im fine with

i would like to play with all the different sentinels, im fine with diversity

for everything else i would feel more then fooled and this "lill" changes which are attacks on healthy minds should stop this autumn, even better NOW !

Edited September 19, 2016 by Guest

[Photovoltaeic]

as stated before, this is a very aggressive thread. 

Opinions are opinions, not truths to the Known Universe. 

I think of these sentinels and kubrows/kavats as mere add-ons for the game. I dont really use them for much other than uitility. If im running a stealth play, ill equip a shade. Some people disagree with my tactics, but my loki cant stay invisible forever! 

similarly, when im farming a common/semicommon resource, Why not use carrier? I wont go out of my way to grab resources unless they're rare. If i dont need it, dont equip it. They're just augments for gameplay. 

 

I just think fighting over opinions is silly. If you dont want to use carrier, use the chesa kubrow. or dont! You are free to come to whatever conclusions you want. 

 

Save your anger for vay hek.

sincerely,

Kbowser

 

[WERElektro]

5 minutes ago, VonDodo said:

you are worong on 2 sides:

 

1) when in lack of a decent argument abuse the "butthurt"...word. It makes your post appear for what it is.

2) Carrier doesn t make anyone stronger. Its a QoL sentinel. If everybody is using it is to relieve a nuisance that should never exist in the first place.

 

Maybe I should have added "imo" but I think it is clear that if someone makes a post, it's only their opinion- So no... I am not Wrong.

I am just stating my opinion.

I brought up my argument just fine. And if you look at some other comments you'll see that most of them fit the definition of the word "Butthurt". Okay, maybe butthurt sounds a bit offensive, but I will stick with it anyway.

Have you played before carrier was released? no`? Well maybe you should know that people were doing fine without it.

------

It can also be compared to this scenario:

It's like an adult giving a toy to a child, and now the child is crying because the toy is being taken away again. You might point out that maybe it wasn't right to give the child the toy to begin with. But the child was able to play with it for some years. Now it'll have to exchange the toy for a smaller one. period.

Maybe it was wrong to bring in vacuum to begin with.

Vacuum is a qol item... that does not prevent it from having an effect that can be considered op. Especially compared to other sentinels.

[Aerensiniac]

members.upc.hu/black-light/Warframe/StalkyStalker_zps4c303b4a.png

At this point what i need is not a modification to vacuum but an explanation. Really. Cause in all honest sincerity, i just would like to understand the thought process behind decisions like these.

The problem: People complain that a 3D game about fast paced combat, aerial acrobatics and generally flying through rooms like some sort of dart shot out of satan's butt should not have a loot system which by all intents and purposes is stuck on the level of the first super mario brothers: touch it to collect it. Loot and dead enemies are spraying everywhere in this game. Shotguns, rocket launchers, nail guns and blasts, not to mention sonicors throwing bodies along with their drops into kingdom come, off map through map into other rooms.
Then ofc necros multiplies the flown about body parts where they land as well.

The solution: Lets split vacuum into 3 parts. And still not give it to kubrovs kavats.

And im just sitting here, peering out from the farthest bottom of my skull and am like... im sorry..... what....?

 

Before the debate about vacuum, feedback and what not... there is this question which i would need to be answered. How are such decisions being made?

I mean if you want to be technical about it, dev stream 80 had most of this answered if you can read between the lines. The first hint is Rebecca playing a void challenge, not being able to figure out where to go. Not wanting to really turn this into a bias but... in the end it comes down to this: The devs do not play warframe and do not really understand the perspective of a player. This is further bolstered by the second part, which is Steve with his charts and statistics... Im sorry but literally the worst, and i do mean LITERALLY the worst thing you can do a game, to completely vandalize and desecrate it, is to look at it through the lens of statistics. Especially as a game developer.

What will statistics tell you about how a feature, move, weapon, mod, game mode, challenge... literally whatever... feels Steve? What will your charts say about subtle delays, minor inconveniences, underlying design flaws or accidental fun features? Cause i think, that by its very definition...

absolutely

and utterly

and completely

not

a

damn

thing.

 

When building a game, you are building a world. Even if its a virtual one, you are creating (or you should be aiming to create) something that has its own charm, laws, story, struggles... its own heart. Using statistics about how much players run a certain map or use a certain sentinel will tell you nothing about why they do it or how it feels, and for that matter, neither will do forum statistics on how many people rant and complain about certain things.

Yet even with these absolutely fundamental problems i still cant wrap my head around some of the decisions the devteam makes. Im simply unable to. This splitting vacuum thing (which is essentially nothing but a huge nerf and absolutely no solution to the basis of the issue) is really just the tip of the iceberg. I mean guys... have you actually taken a look at your own in game shop? You know, the thing which is ACTUALLY A MEANS FOR YOU TO MAKE MONEY?!

• Loki, one of the most all rounder and "overpowered" frame: 175 plat. Ash the clicé warrior: 375 plat
• 5 relics with 1 rare guaranteed (understand: I get more from ONE single mission run in def or excavation) 50 plat
• 1000 endo (which is thrown after you in every sortie by a bare minimum of 2k) 100 plat
• And my all time favorite: Dragon mod pack. Because 5 mods for 90 plat make total sense (for the developers which have not played their own game just one single damn time)

And the list goes on, and the game is riddled with these inconsistent, absolutely and utterly senseless things. And for this wretched, singular life of mine: I cant understand why. Because to do these things at some point you just have to throw away logic in general.

/rant

TL;DR: You are not solving the issue, you are splintering it and expanding it. You are not tackling the actual problem and for the love of god i have no idea (and i would risk to say that nobody else in your playerbase) what goes down in your heads. The game is full with unfinished concepts and things from story, to endgame, to liset, to operator skills, to to to to to to to to to to.... and here you are working on a spear gun and splitting vacuum into 3 while (i bet) thinking about what you can rework the rework of next. At this point even your main supporting youtube channels are turning their backs on you.... what are you doing DE?

Edited September 19, 2016 by Aerensiniac

[Chroia]

32 minutes ago, WEREsandrock said:

that does not prevent it from having an effect that can be considered op.

While my knee-jerk reaction is to agree to this, on consideration I'm not sure how 'spares you having to spend 40% of your time catching flies with chopsticks individual drops with your feet' has any bearing on 'powerful' let alone overpowered.

If Warframe's combat were resource management, sure. But between power creep and 75% eff + P/Flow + the various energy restoration options, barring ammo-guzzlers - it's not, unless you choose to make it so.
All it does, for the most part, is slowing down your meta progress - that is, collecting resources for crafting (and occasionally costing you drops that drop behind invisible walls)... which is why Argon and Alertium (as well as the ever-increasing crafting costs) exist, and which is completely unrelated to player power (unless you're talking solely about unowned mods for new players, or Endo drops, maybe).

Edited September 19, 2016 by Chroia

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

overrated doesn't even begin to describe it.

talk about 1st world problems. tbqh i feel the universal uproar over something so negligible is a bit ridiculous really. "mandatory" yeah right i dropped carrier as soon as i had it maxed for (prisma) shade and never once looked back...

anyway knock yourselves out, whatever the outcome is fine with me.

[WERElektro]

3 minutes ago, Chroia said:

While my knee-jerk reaction is to agree to this, on consideration I'm not sure how 'spares you having to spend 40% of your time catching flies with chopsticks individual drops with your feet' has any bearing on 'powerful' let alone overpowered.

If Warframe's combat were resource management, sure. But between power creep and 75% eff + P/Flow, barring ammo-guzzlers - it's not.
All it does, for the most part, is slowing down your meta progress - that is, collecting resources for crafting (and occasionally costing you drops that drop behind invisible walls, or letting new players miss mods)... which is why Argon and Alertium (as well as the ever-increasing crafting costs) exist, and which is completely unrelated to player power (unless you're talking solely of Endo drops, maybe).

 

Maybe op doesn't describe it, due to the term "Power"- as-as you said- vacuum doesn't have an direct impact on dmg output.

But if you run out of ammo because you didn't pick up every bit of ammo lying around, then there will be no dmg output at all. So yes... it  very indirectly affects your dmg output.

And -personally- that's the only pick ups I care about..: ammo and energy. Everything else is not affecting power,

(I remember when using the Amprex -even with ammo mutation I would run out of ammo, unless carrier was equipped- So... The "dmg output advantage" aspect of vacuum might depend on the weapon equipped and how much ammo it eats. )

[LethalAffliction]

When even 1 enemy drops multiple loot (energy orbs, ammo, mods, endo, etc.) in a general radius and not a single pile then the future of gaming is here:

If people enjoy this then more power to them. I don't. I'd rather play the game and finish the objective then run in circles. To each their own I guess.

[pikaseechu]

Simple. I'd rather have Carrier have Vacuum only than to have the same mod split into 3 for the same job.

Seriously DE, many of us forum people suggested innate Vacuum for all sentinels/companions or a universal Vacuum mod. This is not a utility, it's a game mechanic that is painfully detracting. 

This is nowhere near close to a beneficial change. Just make it all one mod. Increase the mod capacity drain on it. 

On the plus side, I am stoked for ammo mutation on Carrier. That is actually really nice to get as a precept. We need more Utility mods like this for our companions. (Sincere thanks from a Twin Grakata user.)

[VonDodo]

52 minutes ago, WEREsandrock said:

.

Vacuum is a qol item... that does not prevent it from having an effect that can be considered op. Especially compared to other sentinels.

You are even wrong on the definition of overpowered.

You are whiteknighting without anything to backup your statements. Just random Attacks on players calling them immature indirectly because they don t agree with your void statement.

 

Vacuum is the perfect design:

-It doesn t affect other players

-let a player focus on the fun part of gaming removing useless nuisances

-doesn't affect the challenge nor give an advantage.

 

Basically its the opposite of the synoid simulor to name a problem.

 

 

 

As many other companies DE faces a problem in the worst way:

How we make people use Others companions?

The answer would be making other companions more desirable removing unnecessary nuisances like for example DNA stabilizers or making the vacuum universal.

Making Carrier worst just makes the game itself more annoying.....and when mmo becomes annoying people leave the game.

 

 

In another way removing options to force devs idea of game is the most famous game design mistake.

Add other viable options instead and don t focus on non issues.

Edited September 19, 2016 by VonDodo

[Satsuki]

Definitely not overrated. As far as convenience goes, Vacuum is supreme.

It isn't a matter of players being lazy, it's simply that running around manually picking up every little trinket is a waste of time that adds literally nothing to the experience of the game.

I mean, if any player wants to forgo the convenience of not having to actively perform the mundane task of picking up every little thing, then more power to them, but that isn't a compelling argument for why everyone else should do it as well since, again, it adds precisely zero to the game.

[(XBOX)Oussii]

To whom ever call us lazy for using a carrier.

Have you ever tried to farm polymer on survival uranus using Ash, ember or Hydroid? try doing that without the carrier and i bet you that you will end up in one of the following scenarios:

1- You miss picking the drops by at least 30%

2- you end up chasing your drops that you will forget about air support

3- You will end up chasing loots and not killing enemies, then less air support.

4- I can name you a dozen more......

When, as an example, you use ASH BS in a defense sortie, you think i have the time to go look for energy orbs?

I have encountered hundreds of players when they are down, they refuse to be revived and want to die because the carrier was dead and they want it back.

You need a carrier.

If you don't ,  then you must be a super Tenno, or you don't care about the drops.

Or simply you spend your time picking them while others kill for you.

[IfritKajiTora]

If they want to split vacum, then please make Resource, mod and credit vacuum be in all of those mods. Those are must have.

Edited September 19, 2016 by IfritKajiTora

[WERElektro]

3 minutes ago, VonDodo said:

You are even wrong on the definition of power.

You are whiteknighting without anything to backup your statements. Just random Attacks on players calling them immature indirectly because they don t agree with your void statement.

 

Whiteknighting?

attacks on players?

Why are you so aggressive? Offended because I have an opinion? I already stated that it's just an opinion.

Look, I really don't want to fight.

I think that vacuum is op, and it should either be removed or split. It's my opinion. And my argument to back this is that the vast majority is using carrier while ignoring other sentinels and companions. This is NOT what balance looks like. But I am repeating myself...

[(PSN)T0katax]

Could you enlighten me to how helios oneshots every enemy in the game? (Build for him and his weapon?^^)