The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[Brachion]

"Fast-paced" refers to combat, not level design. People really need to understand the difference there. When Warframe is described as fast-paced, it means that it's a mobility-based shooter, rather than a cover-based one. If people were meant to blast through levels at top speed, then things like lockers and individual item pickups wouldn't exist.

As for Kubrows and Kavats, they would be MORE irrelevant if every sentinel could hoover up loot from 40 feet away.

[DiabolusUrsus]

The range is still workable for picking up loot, but they destroyed my Nekros Heatlh Conversion build.

[akira_him]

Just now, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

you mean to say from 12m radius.
they made it 6m diameter? which is also 3m radius.

i thought they bring it down to 6m radius.

could be a bug?

 

6m radius now I believe, and I am talking about area coverage, not the radius 

even if it was 6m diameter and now 3m it is still a 75% area nerf 

[(PSN)DBR87]

57 minutes ago, taiiat said:

well that means it's doing exactly what it's intended to do, assist with picking up items without removing the necessity to actually move.

The old Vacuum already did that.

[tifanator]

12 minutes ago, Taelayah said:

I've always wanted carrier to have 30m range if we're being honest....

Lol

The point of the range reduction was to discourage AFK/camping tactics, what do you think a 30m range would do?

[akira_him]

This maybe the first time I agree with @Troll_Logic, I saw this post after I made my own 

[-TSA-TimSin]

1 minute ago, Brachion said:

"Fast-paced" refers to combat, not level design. People really need to understand the difference there. When Warframe is described as fast-paced, it means that it's a mobility-based shooter, rather than a cover-based one.

What? I don't understand this. Can you go into detail please?

So you kill the enemy fast paced - like oneshot - and then the slow part of looting and walking to the next enemy begins? You cannot mean this, do you?

[OvAeons]

dying of laughter of the "nerf" cause my diriga and helios got a buff in that case :P

if i can make do without the use of carrier you can to.

[Ozamchist]

It's fast paced, yet people insist on having things that cater to doing the least amount of movement for reasons that are beyond me.

Speaking of which what the big deal with Vaccum? What do you need it for so badly that a reduction in its range has?

For picking up the ammo you wouldn't/can't pick up in the first place?

For the resources you already have/going to have an abundace of?

For the drops from crates/caches you would be picking up due to proximity anyways?

For the rare resources that come in big resource caches, and also have distinct shapes and green glows?

For the HP orbs that don't drop unless crates, nekros, or oberon is involved?

For energy orbs that give you like only 25 energy and are pretty easy to jump to and pick up?

Its on every sentinel now, and some people seem to be considering kubrows now so it seems like a good balance move tbh (I honestly prefer, kavats but what ever).

Edited October 6, 2016 by TermiteFrame

[Richtor2415]

I think halving the original range(which was HUGE compared to RUNNING EVERYWHERE and MANUALLY picking up the resources/ammo/credits) is a worth-while sacrifice for a universal vacuum.

[Babellon]

1 minute ago, TimSin-EGT- said:

What? I don't understand this. Can you go into detail please?

So you kill the enemy fast paced - like oneshot - and then the slow part of looting and walking to the next enemy begins? You cannot mean this, do you?

no, he doesn't mean that at all...Don't be obtuse. 

It's a fast paced game in that you are highly mobile. Picking up loot with universal 6m vacuum still allows you to be highly mobile. My question is, why are people opposed to any element of this game taking longer than 5 minutes? You shoot the mobs, you move, you move near the drops, you pick them up. This change to vacuum doesn't change that in the least. It doesn't mean we fly through maps and complete them in under 5 minutes. Its not a race.

[Cappucchino]

This maybe a little self-centered idea.

People are go wild with Carrier nerf (of course other sentinels buff),

how about... make Ammo Case has the effect to increase the range of vacuum too...

about 0.5m per rank so maxed Ammo case will increase the range of vacuum for Carrier from 6m to 9m.

I think this is not so bad for players who normally use carrier, increasing 3m make a little different from other sentinels but still not to OP as the vacuum in the past that make Carrier overwhelming the choice to choose sentinel. Now people who don't need that much range of vacuum can use other sentinel.

 

Just my opinion, feel free to discuss but don't be offensive.

Thank you.

[koopagon]

1 hour ago, F8ted said:

They literally elected to go about the worst possible route. They nerfed the original bandaid into half a bandaid. Huh.... What's great is this is another named tally to the disappointing updates that came before Update 19(The War Within). So I am to understand you made a big fuss about vacuum becoming universal, just to nerf it? This is supposed to bring people back? This is supposed to keep people playing? I dunno... I'm beginning to worry that we are just waiting for another progress system to be farmed at a tenth of the speed of affinity. Maybe they should leave the game as is before we get too many updates...

worst route possible is a blatant exaggeration for not getting 100% what the community wanted. we got a zero cost, zero slot required, built in vacuum with half the range.

if you want worst route possible, lets take a guess at how they could make it worse... assuming we went off the 3 slot required they proposed a little while back theres your answer. likely each would have cost about 5points each so 3 slots and 15 capacity. that would have been a full nerf to the ability instead of the retooled compromise we got.

[-TSA-TimSin]

@Termiteframe You got only 13% Carrier usage, why do you even care? Obviously this change which doesn't even effect you upsets many people, including me.

And last but not least you failed to bring even 1 argument.

Edited October 6, 2016 by TimSin-EGT-

[(PSN)DBR87]

Just now, Richtor2415 said:

I think halving the original range(which was HUGE compared to RUNNING EVERYWHERE and MANUALLY picking up the resources/ammo/credits) is a worth-while sacrifice for a universal vacuum.

But why even sacrifice range? Why not give every Sentinel a 12 meter vacuum? You still had to move around to pick up items with 12m on Carrier, so why cut it in half? Average engagement range of enemies when using guns is 10 to 25 meters. (For me, at least) 12m vacuum was still close enough for enemies like Heavy gunners to get a great bead on you so why nerf it to 6?

I would honestly rather have a LoS cone nerf where you have to be looking in the general direction to pick up loot rather than a range nerf. But again, why nerf it at all? Vacuum was no where near game breaking, it's just exclusivity on Carrier dominated the meta.

[OvAeons]

i think you are mistaking convenience with crutch :p

SOMEHOW i managed without carrier?!?! HOW did i ever do it!?! It was really easy :P

[YUNoJump]

36 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

So you are admitting that people still prefer old carrier to the new sentinels with a 6m vac. So DE gave us all the finger. We weren't using their other sentinels enough so they took away our toy. It wasn't a game breaking toy, or an OP toy, just something everyone seemed to like. It's like Coke realizing 80% of their customers drink coke and only 20% drink sunkist and A&W and Diet Coke. So they make coke taste TERRIBLE so more people will choose the other ones.

Why is it important to DE to make sure all the sentinels get used? who cares? we evaluated all the sentinels and we all seemed to prefer one. If that one isn't Overpowered game wise, we just like it, then what is the problem? Come out with new sentinels that compete.

If sentinel equality was all important, then they should all get a 12.5 meter range. If equality between sentinels is the issue then fine. There is still no solid reasoning for the nerf of the range. If the range was OP to being with, then it should have been nerfed on carrier regardless. However nobody has ever said the range was too big. Tying it to universal vacuum and calling it a player driven change is drivel.

 

Of course I believe that people prefer old carrier, denying that is like denying that shooting people causes pain. I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that Carrier was used too much compared to the other sentinels and the pets, because Vacuum is the most popular Companion ability.

Technically speaking old Carrier isn't "OP", because vacuum has no comparison. It is however vastly overused and viewed as the only choice by many people. Regardless of how popular it is, all sentinels should be viable in the eyes of the community, or else the devs are just wasting their time in developing new things. This isn't even specifically for sentinels, this is just good game balance philosophy. If everything is equally powerful then players have the maximum amount of choice available to them, and that allows players to maximise on their enjoyment. This is pretty obvious.

They obviously understand that people want vacuum, or else they would have just removed it entirely, but they also want to make Pets seem more viable compared to sentinels so they reduced the range, or else the situation would go from "Carrier > everything" to "sentinels > all other companions". Currently, Sentinels can all be judged on their abilities without the massive dreadnought power ability that was old vacuum overshadowing the whole debate, that is a seemingly obvious improvement in that aspect. Carrier's vacuum has been nerfed but it has been buffed with another ability, while every other sentinel has also received an objective buff.

That comparison to Coke is stupid, product sales and game balance are two completely different things. DE doesnt get $4 whenever someone uses Carrier. Coke doesn't need to reduce sales of Coke to increase sales of other drinks, they can increase sales of diet coke without decreasing sales of other things. 

[Ozamchist]

1 minute ago, TimSin-EGT- said:

@Termiteframe You got only 13% Carrier usage, why do you even care? Obviously this change which doesn't even effect you upsets many people, including me.

And last but not least you failed to bring even 1 argument.

"Its on every sentinel now, and some people seem to be considering kubrows now so it seems like a good balance move tbh (I honestly prefer, kavats but what ever)."

also jokes on you every sentinel has it now, so it does effect me. And I'm sort hoping it doesn't give me headaches similar to when carrier would bug out when I used it.

[-TSA-TimSin]

@Babellon No argument?

4 minutes ago, Babellon said:

 My question is, why are people opposed to any element of this game taking longer than 5 minutes?

So you are telling me it's good because now i need for the same stuff longer. And i need longer because i have to run to every loot drop(which is so much fun). And that's better because more fun picking up loot?

[Shockwave-]

If the sole reasoning behind the change was to make all sentinels equal a 12.5 vac range would have done that. The reduction of range hasn't been explained by DE.However any way you slice it, it is a resource nerf.

Since 89% of the players used carrier, we can pretty much call it universal and i will noting that 11% are unaffected as they likely used animals. Those benefiting from the new 6m range is extremely small as is the overall benefit of the 6m radius.

So if 89% use 12.5m vac, and you now have a 6m vac you lose resources. You either play the same and miss pickups (a non vac player in the same mission with a vac player in the old system that played and moved just as fast to the mission and exit lost out a significant percentage of the pickups), OR you will take the time to pick up everything, leading to a longer time in the same mission for the same reward.

Either way, resources / unit of time have been reduced for 89% of the player base.  In addition instead of openly announcing a resource reduction due to large player inventories (something that has been identified as a problem), it is a positive, player induced change to the game mechanics that has increased sentinel diversity and choice. 

 

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Guess I have to play devils advocate....again.

As someone who mainly goes without vacuum on ALL the time I can say without a doubt it's not necessary to grab each and every single drop. I mainly prioritize rare materials, mods, and endo. Even with a smaller radius it's still a significant upgrade for every sentinel and it's not so significant where kubrows/kavats are incredibly disadvantage for not having it. I'd say it was purposefully reigned in such a way as to enforce that notion. This update was done with the sole purpose of weaning people off of the carrier's tit and it will bring more variety to sentinel setups.

Oh and if you watched old videos of Warframe it was slow and plodding. So yeah ultra fast missions done in under a minute was not the original vision. Doors will even eat you if you go sanic speeds.

[AEP8FlyBoy]

It really is just a marginally vast increase in monotony, to a mechanic that didn't even deserve it in the first place.

What could having a 10-12 meter vacuum on all sentinels possibly do to harm the game in any possible way?
I don't even think DE knows.

And yet they gave us this sorry excuse for a 'change'
I hope it doesn't stay this way long.

Edited October 6, 2016 by AEP8FlyBoy

[marshmellory]

i'm not entirely sure why people are so hell-bent on criticizing DE for this update and calling it a "MASSIVE GAME-BREAKING NERF" and "THE WORST DECISION YET"

like,,,

you lost: 6m of vacuum range off one sentinel

you gained: 6m of vacuum range on every other sentinel in the game, PLUS you get built in ammo drum & a universal ammo mutation if you have carrier equipped, which comes across as a great buff to ammo-hungry weapons that used to have to sacrifice a slot or two for those mods.

however, i do agree with the main post in that 6m is still a little tight - the reason carrier was overused was that it had vacuum at all, not that the range of its vacuum was ""overpowered"". the other problem was that there were far reduced benefits for using any other sentinel, kubrow or kavat. in this case it looks like kubrows and kavats have been overlooked, i think a better solution would have just to make vacuum a passive of a.) every warframe b.) or every companion, animal or otherwise.

[KrypTic.]

Just now, koopagon said:

worst route possible is a blatant exaggeration for not getting 100% what the community wanted. we got a zero cost, zero slot required, built in vacuum with half the range.

if you want worst route possible, lets take a guess at how they could make it worse... assuming we went off the 3 slot required they proposed a little while back theres your answer. likely each would have cost about 5points each so 3 slots and 15 capacity. that would have been a full nerf to the ability instead of the retooled compromise we got.

70.37% reduction... ;-;

12m -> 6m isn't strictly half, we're talking about an area of effect, not a linear pathway
The Area:
A=12^2*pi A=8^2*pi
144pi - 64pi = 80pi / 144 x 100% = 55.55% reduction.

The volume for picking up mods is also now this:
V=4/3 x pi x 12^3 V=4/3 x pi x 8^3
2304pi - 682.66pi = 1621.31pi / 3204pi x 100% = 70.37% reduction.

I'm fine with them trying to encourage players to be more active with the game but this seems a little rough, however i do agree it could have been much, much worse.
overall, still pretty flustered after this update. 
 

[Ozamchist]

@TimSin-EGT- Oh and before we default to that "then why don't they give it to kubrows and kavats" please remember that they move independently from players, which might lead to some coding nightmares. Not to mention that might also tip the scales in the reverse making Kavats and Kubrows more favorable than sentinels period.