The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[Shockwave-]

9 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

a) OK, the argument that PvE doesn't need balance comes up every time something is nerfed, I suggest you find some threads about it and read about why you're wrong. I do agree that a universal mod may be a better idea, but in that case they should have it that you don't get any vacuum without the mod. We really don't need to buff old vacuum. A universal mod that's just as powerful doesn't really work if we go by the reasoning that my third point is correct though.

b) I can see that you got that survival argument from another thread, I put an argument against it there. The devs want to maximise fun as it keeps players playing, just giving players more power doesn't do that.

c) no it doesn't, the exact same amount of loot drops, you just have to walk a bit further. Don't say something doesn't exist because you have to work a little harder to get it, that's the reasoning of a morbidly obese person lying on their back, starving to death because all the food they have is out of arm's reach.

a) I am not wrong, I never said all of PvE but this doesn't need balance this is not a challenge based aspect of the game. If it is then picking up loot is part of the challenge of WF and frankly, no thanks to that kind of game. Challenge is key, but this isn't a challenge inducing change, ergo it doesn't need balancing.

b) no, but vacuum isn't power, it's convenience and convenience is actually fun. Again this is not a challenge aspect, it doesn't make it any EASIER it just makes it less tedious to do the same thing. Tedium in a game is not a good thing when there is an easy way to avoid it. You keep equating fun and power in an odd way. Though power is usually fun.

c) Yes it does. You can't possibly argue without carrier you can complete a mission just as fast AND get just as many pickups. Doesn't happen. Tested it a number of times. I never said anything doesn't exist. It reduces resources/mods/credits PER TIME SPENT. Either you miss some drops OR you take more time to pick up each one. Which means if you could do 11 missions with old carrier and get 100% of the drops in the time it now takes you to do 10 missions and pick up 100% of the drops your overall resources HAVE BEEN REDUCED.. assuming you play the same amount which is usually pretty fixed based on desire. Even if the mission takes you 5% longer or 1% longer, it's a reduction.

[Vali]

The thing is, what would be lost if DE gave all companions a 12m pickup range?

Answer: Nothing!

[NativeKiller]

Just now, hazerddex said:

you dont get it i played this game long before Vaccum existed and got around just fine still do i use smeeta over the dumb carrier because it does more for me then any sentinal ever will

YOU don't get it,

 

Just because you think "Vacuum isn't my style" doesn't mean that I have to agree with your sentiment.

 

 

[ObviousLee]

Just now, notlamprey said:

I'm just giving feedback, and that feedback happens to be negative.

My happy place is 1.60+ sprint speed, and we'd be derailing to discuss the relative merits of 'chosen playstyle.' I'm simply saying that it really does feel like suddenly I'm waiting on the game to catch up.

 

wait till you're passing 3.5 sprint speed and still not having issues. My zephyr can top out around there, even more so with a volt. Fun fact: cycling through your wasd keys really quick makes you run in a tight circle and everything catches up to you. We all need to get off this mindset that you're supposed to easily get every drop in the game with absolutely zero effort.

[GrimAtrament]

Just now, Agentawesome said:

The thing is, what would be lost if DE gave all companions a 12m pickup range?

Answer: Nothing!

exept i can garrentee no one would use sentinels ever

[pagepro]

No one asked for the reduction of vacuum. We asked for a universal vacuum that is tied to Warframes. DE decided to tie it to sentinels. Hmm okay that's fine I suppose, but whats this?

They cut the range of the vacuum in half. WHY? There was no valid reasoning behind doing this. 

This is not even a huge game changer. Plenty of other games have some sort of mechanic that lets you collect fodder items faster. 

Why must any change have some unknown conceived nerf behind it? 

Of course I was skeptical about the universal vacuum. I can't say that I was surprised at DE completely missing the mark once again. 

If this was their solution to the player base asking for universal vacuum I would have said no and I'm sure many others would have as well. 

 

 

[Vali]

Just now, hazerddex said:

exept i can garrentee no one would use sentinels ever

You have no such proof of that. Sentinels are 0 maintenance and work passively. Not everybody plays how you play the game, just because its useful to you doesn't mean it's useful for everyone.

[GrimAtrament]

maybe they nerffed the range so you would  use the more useful kavat and kurbrows ever consider that?

[JerechoNC]

I dont usually feel very stongly about things. the devs should usually do what they want. 

 

but these changes have made me angry. Why dont they listen to us? why did they nerf it? any reasons at all? why isnt it universal? what is the explanations behind these changes? they seem nonsensical and since weve been asking for them for a very long time youd thiink they might take some of our suggestions into consideration. 

 

it just feels like a slap in the face. it feels like they dont care. one of the most hotly debated issues in warframe history and they seemingly didnt bother to take the community's suggestions into consideration. 

[GrimAtrament]

Just now, Agentawesome said:

You have no such proof of that. Sentinels are 0 maintenance and work passively. Not everybody plays how you play the game, just because its useful to you doesn't mean it's useful for everyone.

ok what does sentinel do that a kavat/kurobrow cant do better? name it please

[Tesseract7777]

In this particular case, I think they have been quite clear with their goals. 

They have always tried to make changes that force people to play more actively whether they like it or not. While I am not at all surprised by the outrage, I am partly surprised at the people who are surprised at a Vacuum nerf. They are constantly making nerfs or other changes that lead to more "active" play, that is one thing they have been consistent with, especially lately. 

[letir]

Just now, ObviousLee said:

wait till you're passing 3.5 sprint speed and still not having issues. My zephyr can top out around there, even more so with a volt. Fun fact: cycling through your wasd keys really quick makes you run in a tight circle and everything catches up to you. We all need to get off this mindset that you're supposed to easily get every drop in the game with absolutely zero effort.

And another case of "I don't have this problem, so this isn't a problem at all".

We definitly need more white knights on this forum, they givinig so much useful feedback with all their undying love to DE.

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

13 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

I do have to give you this point, I didn't really think of adding efficiency as a way of adding fun.

However, I can make the point that they still need to balance sentinels, and balancing the other sentinels to the same level as Carrier would create some ridiculously powerful abilities in order to balance damage/combat based abilities with Vacuum, a utility. Stuff like Vaporise and Crowd Dispersion would have to deal much more damage than any player-usable weapon, and I don't even know how you could balance scanning enemies. It's simply impossible to balance sentinels without nerfing Vacuum. 

I understand that this really isn't a good thing, but it's a harsh necessity. You can't solve overpopulation by making the planet bigger.

its not a necessity, isnt the issue of balance solved by carrier now having ammo mutation and vacuum being across them all? Then u just balance the new ammo mutation vs the other sentinels. Reducing the range was an unnecessary way of making 89% of the community mad.

[GrimAtrament]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

In this particular case, I think they have been quite clear with their goals. 

They have always tried to make changes that force people to play more actively whether they like it or not. While I am not at all surprised by the outrage, I am partly surprised at the people who are surprised at a Vacuum nerf. They are constantly making nerfs or other changes that lead to more "active" play, that is one thing they have been consistent with, especially lately. 

basicly this

[Beggining]

I thought that they used a shorter range to promote exploring, in conjuction with Ayatan hunting O.O

[Barely_Ironic]

Other sentinels aren't bad, there were simply overwhelmed by the fact that you had to pay a little too much attention to pickups. Now you can pick whichever one actually suits your playstyle, and you only have to pay slight attention to pickups and be in their general area

[notlamprey]

Just now, ObviousLee said:

wait till you're passing 3.5 sprint speed and still not having issues. My zephyr can top out around there, even more so with a volt. Fun fact: cycling through your wasd keys really quick makes you run in a tight circle and everything catches up to you. We all need to get off this mindset that you're supposed to easily get every drop in the game with absolutely zero effort.

I actually think that's exactly where we should be, at zero effort needed to receive any item that drops in a mission.

We're already dealing with the game running math to decide whether those things drop in the first place, and that's enough. For the record, I have zillions of everything and a mountain of plat besides. I couldn't blame anyone for calling me spoiled, but don't tell me I'm wrong to no longer be having fun.

That's not conducive to polite discussion, and the fact remains that I was still finding things that felt worth doing in the game. This vacuum change devalues my time and effort, so naturally I'm not pleased about it.

In the end, what will be will be. Perhaps DE responds to all this discussion by giving us back some portion of vacuum's original functionality, or at least the freedom to choose it in lieu of some other tool. Maybe they don't, and vacuum stays as it is for the rest of Warframe's lifespan. If I need to adapt and can, I will. If not, I'll be elsewhere and that's fine.

Above all else, I'd really be a fool if I didn't even attempt to give my feedback. If I don't express my opinion, I'll have no one to blame but myself. At least do me the courtesy of not attempting to devalue me along with my opinion, as though those two were the same thing.

[Vali]

4 minutes ago, hazerddex said:

ok what does sentinel do that a kavat/kurobrow cant do better? name it please

- Diriga multi-target electric stun lock, 70 meter sniper rifle.

- Sentinel weapons can cause status procs like crazy and provide support.  

- Djinn's Fatal Attraction makes enemies go into harmless state.

- Carrier can now be used to replace ammo mutation mods for ammo eating weapons.

- Helios still can scan and show weaknesses. 

- No need for DNA stabilizers.

- Less Forma needed overall.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Agentawesome

[NativeKiller]

Just increase the universal vacuum range to 12m for all sentinels and later on to all companions?

 

Easy and fair enough, right?

[NeithanDiniem]

2 minutes ago, letir said:

And another case of "I don't have this problem, so this isn't a problem at all".

We definitly need more white knights on this forum, they givinig so much useful feedback with all their undying love to DE.

So anyone with an opinion that doesn't match your negative one is apparently a white knight? Lovely.

[Shockwave-]

21 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

I do have to give you this point, I didn't really think of adding efficiency as a way of adding fun.

However, I can make the point that they still need to balance sentinels, and balancing the other sentinels to the same level as Carrier would create some ridiculously powerful abilities in order to balance damage/combat based abilities with Vacuum, a utility. Stuff like Vaporise and Crowd Dispersion would have to deal much more damage than any player-usable weapon, and I don't even know how you could balance scanning enemies. It's simply impossible to balance sentinels without nerfing Vacuum. 

I understand that this really isn't a good thing, but it's a harsh necessity. You can't solve overpopulation by making the planet bigger.

don't have to balance sentinels really... why do they. again I have to go back to the amusement park. If you already created the content (or bought all the rides) then why if everyone comes and pays admission to ride one ride, would you remove it? if people will have less overall fun with your other sentinels then what is the NEED to force them use them? I don't understand that mentality. If carrier is OP for the game content fine then it needs to be nerfed. if it reduces challenge, it needs to be nerfed. If it reduces DE's income like smeeta resrouce drops making nobody buy boosters) then it needs to be nerfed.

Forcing players to use sentinels they aren't choosing to use because carrier is better and more fun isn't a viable reason for creating balance between sentinels. Why not leave them unused? DE just want's their things played with isn't a good reason. Wanting players to have more than one choice is good, but wanting them to have 5 poor choices rather than one superior choice isn't. That's a reduction in choice. That's DE removing the choices until you do what they want.... which isn't choice, or fun.

 

Besides, how does 12.5m vacuum on all sentinels make them ridiculously overpowered?

Edited October 6, 2016 by Shockwave-

[pagepro]

7 hours ago, hazerddex said:

maybe they nerffed the range so you would  use the more useful kavat and kurbrows ever consider that?

We asked for VACUUM UNIVERSAL TO WARFRAMES NOT SENTINELS. Then everyone would use whatever the hell they wanted and we have no problems here. 

No, what DE did was tie it to sentinels AND reduce the range of vacuum. This is a complete 180 from what we wanted.

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, letir said:

And another case of "I don't have this problem, so this isn't a problem at all".

We definitly need more white knights on this forum, they givinig so much useful feedback with all their undying love to DE.

you don't seem to get what i'm saying. at insane rates of speed, there are ways to mitigate the resource draw time, that the player themselves can do manually.

on slower frames, it works just fine. all these "i don't like it" arguments boil down to people wanting to steamroll in a straight line and still get everything. DE doesn't want you to do that, and i agree with them. there is now a solid reason to use other sentinels as they all share a universal draw range, meaning every single sentinel is on the same level in terms of passive use, which allows for personal preference in regards to what sentinel to use as opposed to this is the only sentinel that does the thing that i like.

[letir]

Just now, NeithanDiniem said:

So anyone with an opinion that doesn't match your negative one is apparently a white knight? Lovely.

Anyone who have "I don't have this problem, so this isn't a problem" Syndrome is a white knight for me.

[taiiat]

this happens in every Video Game that isn't being Developed by people that don't care about their product.

a concept is dreamt up, and it should be expected to change by the time it is implemented as when you actually make it you have to face the ramifications of your actions since you're not just dreaming anymore.

 

expecting otherwise is naive, and is daydreaming.