Bladestorm rework feedback

[Gameverseman]

53 minutes ago, Azrael said:

Yeah, it kinda would be. A guaranteed instant kill on multiple enemies at a time with the press of a button, regardless of level, would be the most op thing in the game. At that point you may as well add a "kill everyone in the level" button.

Is that not what the current Bladestorm is?

[Azrael]

2 minutes ago, Gameverseman said:

Is that not what the current Bladestorm is?

Kinda, but it's not at the level that BS-with-covert-lethality would be.

[RealPandemonium]

On 9/18/2016 at 7:11 PM, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

A damage buff might also be included to offset the LOS nerf."

>BS needs more damage

Edited October 28, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Gameverseman]

What if Bladestorm was a hybrid of Wukong's fourth ability and Mesa's fourth ability? Ash reveals his hidden blades and aims at enemies... or looks rather.... and upon key press teleports to the enemy and kills it with the hidden blades. Then the player could re-aim at a new enemy and repeat.... OR the player keeps the existing aim not of Bladestorm and instead will have to press a key for each finisher the player wishes to perform on any given target....so the player would have to press a key to transition to the next enemy and so on at the expense of energy. This mode then gets retoggled off on the deactivation of Ash's 4th ability

[Gameverseman]

So the devs have done away with "hold 4" and changed it to a toggle.

[aerosoul1337]

From devstream #82:

• The Bladestorm changes have been updates since last Devstream to be a toggle rather than holding the button down.
• The Ash Deluxe skin has been modeled completely, it will be released soon along with the Blade Storm changes.

Looks like it has no way back, they will rush it that way (the same concept).

This official poll doesn't do anything. (most people are against the marking system)
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/708123-the-second-stream-podcast-episode-4/

They aren't listening.
I ain't buying.

 

Edited October 29, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[Mimolette]

Changed to toggle...oh well, could've been something great. I understand that some of the arguments against that were lack of movement and an overall decrease in DPS, but wouldn't it be awesome if it ended up like this? It's basically Ciri's Charged Blink ability.

 

 

Of course, slow motion would be hard if not impossible to implement. However, if there was a default range the moment you press 4 which would then increase in radius until it reaches a cap after x seconds (it has to be fairly short, to maintain the fast-paced nature of Warframe), wouldn't that be fun and still retain good DPS capabilities? Also, you won't be forced to stay on spot and even if sprinting around while holding 4 might be hard to pull off, it won't really hurt the actual effectiveness since the radius would be its center.

Edited October 29, 2016 by REKTifier_

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

So with a toggled 4 BS, wouldnt that be a buff? Considering i can toggle it on and use my other abilties say my 3 and my 1. I would use a Fatal tele build and zenurik to keep energy , So wouldnt the dps be higher?

Edited October 29, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[aerosoul1337]

16 hours ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

So with a toggled 4 BS, wouldnt that be a buff? Considering i can toggle it on and use my other abilties say my 3 and my 1. I would use a Fatal tele build and zenurik to keep energy , So wouldnt the dps be higher?

A buff? You still can't do anything during the animations. Now it adds an extra step and LoS nerf. A nerf disguises as a rework.
I don't know if you REALLY know how blade storm works. Consider how it works now, you mark 18 targets instantly and only require Los of your main target, you and your shadows can attack 17 times each (up to 51 attacks total). And the melee combo does stack.

Yes, currently it is OP, but the newer version is definitely not a buff.

The newer version is a lot slower, a huge nerf. You need LoS for every target, your shadow only attack multi-tagged target, so if you mark 18 targets, you will have to see the animations 18 times (by Ash himself) instead of 6 times. Your marked targets can be killed by others before you hit them 1 by 1.

But what important is, it isn't interactive at all, everyone will just active "scan mode" 24/7. So you can trigger 4 randomly, even less interactive than it is now. But you kill slower and the animations lock you longer.

Oh well, I do want a full Ash rework but I guess it's not going to happen.

Edited October 30, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

2 hours ago, aerosoul1337 said:

A buff? You still can't do anything during the animations. Now it adds an extra step and LoS nerf. A nerf disguises as a rework.
I don't know if you REALLY know how blade storm works. Consider how it works now, you mark 18 targets instantly and only require Los of your main target, you and your shadows can attack 17 times each (up to 51 attacks total). And the melee combo does stack.

Yes, currently it is OP, but the newer version is definitely not a buff.

The newer version is a lot slower, a huge nerf. You need LoS for every target, your shadow only attack multi-tagged target, so if you mark 18 targets, you will have to see the animation 18 times (by Ash himself) instead of 6 times. Your marked targets can be killed by others before you hit them 1 by 1.

But what important is, it isn't interactive at all, everyone will just active "scan mode" 24/7. So you can trigger 4 randomly, even less interactive than it is now. But you kill slower and the animations lock you longer.

Oh well, I do want a full Ash rework but I guess it's not going to happen.

Me too, I was under the impression the NEW "toggled" BS would be more like WoF?  Example: Toggle it on.. look left..look right (marking enemies)...as your using your your 1, and 3, ....toggle it off..execute BS?....I guess we will see how it goes? The old BS u had to aim at a specific target...With my ash build currently it takes me exactly 2 sec to perform a full BS ( excluding the occasional ancient.) Im good with this new Ash "toggled" BS, I actually think i like it bettter IF i can use my 3 and 1 while im toggled i can bypass the acient and then toggle it off and execute BS...Im optimistic and skeptical at the same time. But i guess we will see...

Edited October 30, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[StonedMakak]

After coming back from a Warframe break, I have learned that, to my joy, Ash's Ultimate is getting a rework. However, my enthusiasm quickly diminished, seeing that, apparently, Dev's only intention with this one, is to reduce the facerollus aspect of the current iteration of BS, instead of making it a more interesting ability to use, akin to the latest additions to the character rooster. In any case, I know it's futile to hope for radical change of concept at this point, but nevertheless, I decided to share an idea I've been toying with for a while. I apologise, if this seems similar to other ideas - when reworks are about to drop, threads like this one pop up like mushrooms after rain, I can't guarantee I didn't unintentional suggested something that someone else has already thought of. Anyway, here goes.

(New) Bladestorm - Channelled ability, additional cost based on number of enemies affected (see below).

Upon pressing 4 Ash turns into a smoke form. Visually, a smokey effect is added onto the model. Mechanically, this form gives Ash reduced threat, reduced detection range for unalerted enemies, significant boost to movement speed (rolling, sprint, slide etc.), parkour velocity, infinite aim glide and wall latch, immunity to AoE damage, immunity to CC effects that affect movement (staggers, knock-downs etc.), and a large evasion bonus. However, Ash cannot use any weapons or abilities in this form, with the exception of non-lethal Teleport (without the Finisher component), free of charge.

Here's the twist - In his smoke form, Ash is intangible, meaning that he can pass through enemies and allies alike, and possibly some of the environmental objects, within reason and capabilities of the game engine (e.g. lasers, some doors, crates etc.). Every enemy he passes through is instantly affected a powerful Bleed effect and also marked for execution - upon pressing 4 again, Ash will leave Bladestorm, and marked enemies will be attacked by clones. Apart for channelling cost, Energy would be consumed for each enemy attacked, and refunded if that enemy dies due to Bladestorm. If a marked enemy is killed by a teammate before hitting 4, no energy is consumed obviously. The power of the ability can be easily controlled by adjusting the channelling cost and energy cost for each attack. It is interactive, provides a fun mechanic (passing through objects, I don't think we have that, do we?), it's useful for stealth/exploration, it's team-friendly (no damage immune enemies, just a helpful DoT), and it's performance is somewhat capped by how well you can parkour (but it's still easy to use on a crowd).

Thoughts?

[shyguyk]

I think it would work better than the proposed change, since in that one people would just hold 4 and spin their mouse around.

+1 for the smoke going though things tho

[Sintag]

I like this.  Once Ash gets a more full rework (If that ever happens), I'd be all for this sort of idea.

[aerosoul1337]

1 hour ago, tisdfogg said:

After coming back from a Warframe break, I have learned that, to my joy, Ash's Ultimate is getting a rework. However, my enthusiasm quickly diminished, seeing that, apparently, Dev's only intention with this one, is to reduce the facerollus aspect of the current iteration of BS, instead of making it a more interesting ability to use, akin to the latest additions to the character rooster. In any case, I know it's futile to hope for radical change of concept at this point, but nevertheless, I decided to share an idea I've been toying with for a while. I apologise, if this seems similar to other ideas - when reworks are about to drop, threads like this one pop up like mushrooms after rain, I can't guarantee I didn't unintentional suggested something that someone else has already thought of. Anyway, here goes.

(New) Bladestorm - Channelled ability, additional cost based on number of enemies affected (see below).

Upon pressing 4 Ash turns into a smoke form. Visually, a smokey effect is added onto the model. Mechanically, this form gives Ash reduced threat, reduced detection range for unalerted enemies, significant boost to movement speed (rolling, sprint, slide etc.), parkour velocity, infinite aim glide and wall latch, immunity to AoE damage, immunity to CC effects that affect movement (staggers, knock-downs etc.), and a large evasion bonus. However, Ash cannot use any weapons or abilities in this form, with the exception of non-lethal Teleport (without the Finisher component), free of charge.

Here's the twist - In his smoke form, Ash is intangible, meaning that he can pass through enemies and allies alike, and possibly some of the environmental objects, within reason and capabilities of the game engine (e.g. lasers, some doors, crates etc.). Every enemy he passes through is instantly affected a powerful Bleed effect and also marked for execution - upon pressing 4 again, Ash will leave Bladestorm, and marked enemies will be attacked by clones. Apart for channelling cost, Energy would be consumed for each enemy attacked, and refunded if that enemy dies due to Bladestorm. If a marked enemy is killed by a teammate before hitting 4, no energy is consumed obviously. The power of the ability can be easily controlled by adjusting the channelling cost and energy cost for each attack. It is interactive, provides a fun mechanic (passing through objects, I don't think we have that, do we?), it's useful for stealth/exploration, it's team-friendly (no damage immune enemies, just a helpful DoT), and it's performance is somewhat capped by how well you can parkour (but it's still easy to use on a crowd).

Thoughts?

Your idea is not the best but definitely better the DE's version.
There are a lot of solid rework ideas around the forums. Look how hard others tried for a rework since 1 year ago:

DE claimed they have tried a lot of different reworks already, but the ongoing one is simply wrong. All the the problems still remain, the enemies are still invulnerable to others and the animations lock you even longer (because shadows only attack multi-tagged target). What if I multi-mark a tough enemy but another Ash player does the same thing, this still causes conflict.

It feels like a lazy rework nerf just to stop the complains about "press 4 to win".

I wanted a full Ash rework, but honestly I feel desperate and I give up already.
I will not buy Ash's new skin if DE's final release is just like the demo.

Edited October 30, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[aerosoul1337]

On 2016/10/27 at 9:39 AM, Nazrethim said:

I think DE should hold back the bs rework or deploy it temporarily and release a full ash rework after they are done with TWW. Making a pointless and rushed tweak to an ability is a bad thing, even moreso when it's to a popular frame like ash.

Sadly there is no more chance, they said it will be released soon along with Ash's Deluxe skin.
And I can smell a lot of bugs from blade storm and TWW afterward.

[aerosoul1337]

7 hours ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

Me too, I was under the impression the NEW "toggled" BS would be more like WoF?  Example: Toggle it on.. look left..look right (marking enemies)...as your using your your 1, and 3, ....toggle it off..execute BS?....I guess we will see how it goes? The old BS u had to aim at a specific target...With my ash build currently it takes me exactly 2 sec to perform a full BS ( excluding the occasional ancient.) Im good with this new Ash "toggled" BS, I actually think i like it bettter IF i can use my 3 and 1 while im toggled i can bypass the acient and then toggle it off and execute BS...Im optimistic and skeptical at the same time. But i guess we will see...

Sir, I guess you don't know how ancient's auras work.
Ancients' auras are AOE effects that can not be bypassed. You are not suppose to rely on abilities against disruptor aura.
Disruptor aura reduces ability damage by 90% and ability debuff duration by 75%, so you are doing nothing but locking your targets and yourself for a long while.

Anyways, the new blade storm won't solve your problem.

Edited October 30, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[xaanos]

I understand that the change will be mark enemies and then teleport to stab just those. But does this really fix the real problem with blade storm other than being a boring ability?

 

With the real problem, I mean the stupid animation that cause the screen to fly all over the place and give people headaches.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

There's not a "real" problem. There's a usability problem, which you pointed out, but there's also a problem regarding him being too good for too little work and/or time invested. The rework definitely seems to fix the second issue, which affects many more players than the first.

Edited October 30, 2016 by AuroraSonicBoom

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, aerosoul1337 said:

Sadly there is no more chance, they said it will be released soon along with Ash's Deluxe skin.
And I can smell a lot of bugs from blade storm and TWW afterward.

And the smell of Ash rotting for years to come afterwards.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

My main is Ash. Got used to the teleport camera a week after playing him.

His bladestorm needed changing though. After they changed it to finishing damage it became too good with no effort required for the end result. So i would say the animation is not in fact the "real problem". The ease of use for its strength was. Yes, i think this fixes it. At least i hope so.

[StonedMakak]

3 hours ago, aerosoul1337 said:

Your idea is not the best but definitely better the DE's version.
There are a lot of solid rework ideas around the forums. Look how hard others tried for a rework since 1 year ago:

DE claimed they have tried a lot of different reworks already, but the ongoing one is simply wrong. All the the problems still remain, the enemies are still invulnerable to others and the animations lock you even longer (because shadows only attack multi-tagged target). What if I multi-mark a tough enemy but another Ash player does the same thing, this still causes conflict.

It feels like a lazy rework nerf just to stop the complains about "press 4 to win".

I wanted a full Ash rework, but honestly I feel desperate and I give up already.
I will not buy Ash's new skin if DE's final release is just like the demo.

Oh, I know, I think I even replied in some of those.

I agree that my idea is definitely not perfect, I just had this thought that it would be cool to have a ghostly-themed warframe that can pass through things (Yay for Halloween inspirations!). Then it hit me that Ash should have this sort of skill, since it fits his smokey-ninja theme extremely well. So, I tried to incorporate it into a rework.

I also agree that this tweak that DE has in the oven is definitely  a let down, and a wasted opportunity. Though I wouldn't be as dramatic as @Nazrethim, Ash will be most likely forgotten for another year and a half, and remain a outdated (if somewhat effective) frame in comparison to the newly released ones. By no means terrible when it comes to performance, but bland and primitive. Which for me personally is just as bad.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

2 hours ago, aerosoul1337 said:

Sir, I guess you don't know how ancient's auras work.
Ancients' auras are AOE effects that can not be bypassed. You are not suppose to rely on abilities against disruptor aura.
Disruptor aura reduces ability damage by 90% and ability debuff duration by 75%, so you are doing nothing but locking your targets and yourself for a long while.

Anyways, the new blade storm won't solve your problem.

What i ment was (i can scan what i want to BS) and (while toggled) i can 3 the ancient (if i need to) and (then) execute the BS. Im trying to remain postive and optimistic. Im having trouble understanding how the "toggled" BS changes anything anyway other than the sheer number of kills one will achieve....He will still one two hit everything. and now i dont have to "aim" my 4..i can scan and then BS

Edited October 30, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[xXDeadsinxX]

Honestly I still hate the way DE is reworking his bladestorm. It's going to be a toggle ability now and mark the enemies sure that's fine and dandy but, it's still basically the same thing, he's still OP as hell. Sure it has no effort or interaction with the ability right now but when it becomes a toggle and you mark the enemies it's more of both but still OP and boring. I don't like Ash, he's too  boring and not fun for me. 

Edited October 30, 2016 by xXDeadsinxX

[Nazrethim]

3 minutes ago, tisdfogg said:

I also agree that this tweak that DE has in the oven is definitely  a let down, and a wasted opportunity. Though I wouldn't be as dramatic as @Nazrethim, Ash will be most likely forgotten for another year and a half, and remain a outdated (if somewhat effective) frame in comparison to the newly released ones. By no means terrible when it comes to performance, but bland and primitive. Which for me personally is just as bad.

I never said it would be terrible, actually the rework achieves only the mindless press4towin, so the ability stays almost exactly the same, which means it's not a rework, just a tweak.

I'm mad that DE didn't give one of the original 8 warframes a full fledged rework that solved the issues the actual Ash players have pointed out for years, instead giving us a clearly rushed "shut up already" to the million of whiners who complained about Ash "stealing their kills" (which is absurd) and "keeping enemies alive" (a problem DE created in the first place by not say, limiting Ash/clones to attack a target only 3 times not until it runs out of attacks). DE, once again, decided to listen to the "nerf it" crowd. That's why I'm mad and make it sound dramatic, the tweak didn't acomplish jack sh*t for Ash players.

[StonedMakak]

18 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I never said it would be terrible, actually the rework achieves only the mindless press4towin, so the ability stays almost exactly the same, which means it's not a rework, just a tweak.

I'm mad that DE didn't give one of the original 8 warframes a full fledged rework that solved the issues the actual Ash players have pointed out for years, instead giving us a clearly rushed "shut up already" to the million of whiners who complained about Ash "stealing their kills" (which is absurd) and "keeping enemies alive" (a problem DE created in the first place by not say, limiting Ash/clones to attack a target only 3 times not until it runs out of attacks). DE, once again, decided to listen to the "nerf it" crowd. That's why I'm mad and make it sound dramatic, the tweak didn't acomplish jack sh*t for Ash players.

I never said you did, I was referring to the "rotting for years" part.

But, like I said, I agree with the general sentiment. It's a minor tweak that adds busywork for the exact same effect i.e, watching a cutscene of the same, tired animations that I could draw from memory by now, with perfect detail. I'm right there with ya, buddy.