(PSN)vinster Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Yes, I was disappointed too. More traces will not incentivize me to stay longer and face toucher enemies, when I can just restart the fissure mission. I was hoping that maybe at Rotation C, they could automatically upgrade your relic to the next level, and maybe when you get yet to another rotation C, it will be upgraded to Radiant automatically, or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 1 hour ago, (XB1)FingerFlikenBoy said: Yeah, I agree but at least they're taking a step in the right direction. No, they aren't. If they are making it harder then it needs to be balanced with higher rewards as well. Such as only using one relic, having drop chances increase by 10 percent for every 5 waves you stay, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)A_SimpleName Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Irorone said: There's one thing that silly about this one relic per reward bit in endless. What is ACTUALLY the advantage of doing said endless in that format? Fewer loading screens, that's literally the only advantage in that setup. They did mentioned that number of traces gain will be higher the longer you go. On that note, the amount of "increase" will determine if it's enough incentive to continuing vs extract and repeat after 5mins/waves. I rather the relics get free refinement the longer you go. 1st rotation: A, A - default intact or your initial refinement B - default flawless or your refinement C - default exceptional or your refinement 2nd rotation: A, A - default flawless or your refinement B - default exceptional or your refinement C - default radiant or your refinement 3rd rotation, and ... repeat 2nd rotation Each relic will still yield 6-30 traces. Edited October 28, 2016 by (PS4)A_SimpleName added details/clarifications Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesuTronic Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, (PS4)vinster said: Yes, I was disappointed too. More traces will not incentivize me to stay longer and face toucher enemies, when I can just restart the fissure mission. I was hoping that maybe at Rotation C, they could automatically upgrade your relic to the next level, and maybe when you get yet to another rotation C, it will be upgraded to Radiant automatically, or something like that. That would still be in a sense just more traces but at least it would be enough extra traces that would actually incentivize staying longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said: They did mentioned that number of traces gain will be higher the longer you go. On that note, the amount of "increase" will determine if it's enough incentive to continuing vs extract and repeat after 5mins/waves. I rather the relics get free refinement the longer you go. 1st rotation: A, A - default intact or your initial refinement B - flawless C - exceptional 2nd rotation: A, A - flawless B - exceptional C - radiant 3rd rotation, and ... repeat 2nd rotation Each relic will still yield 6-30 traces. Or, I could just do regular missions fissure missions as many times as I want to get just as many traces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)A_SimpleName Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: Or, I could just do regular missions fissure missions as many times as I want to get just as many traces. 1) An average fissure run takes 3-5 mins and yield 6-30 traces For the 1st rotation, that would mean same amount of effort vs rewards, plus you still get traces. Remember that it'll take 25 traces to make a flawless. At the start of the 2nd rotation, you can already see the benefit 2) The longer you go, the higher the enemy levels. It's good for more challenging content as well as XP. With the benefit of free refinement and getting comparable amount of traces as running individual fissure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)PokeLinkEB Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 56 minutes ago, Evanescent said: There should be something like it can skew the drop chance the longer you stay, with you getting a gurantee at a very high mission time or something. You're on to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 It's a bad idea in my opinion. It doesn't actually offer anything over the current system, and no, more void traces is not adequate. They can already be farmed near infinitely. Ideally, we should be able to use one relic to go as long as we can. Alternatively, turn it into a trash relic sink. Allow us to pick the relic we want to farm (e.g. Axi T1 - radiant) then when the 5 minute mark hits, let us choose a trash relic instead (of any type) and allow it to function as a copy of the relic we chose initially. Meaning, all through trash relics from 3 prime vaults back, that people will never use (because relics don't rotate like the void tables did) will finally have a use. While it still won't be endless, it will be a lot closer, make a lot more people happier, and give people a reason to go for relics they normally would never even touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said: 1) An average fissure run takes 3-5 mins and yield 6-30 traces For the 1st rotation, that would mean same amount of effort vs rewards, plus you still get traces. Remember that it'll take 25 traces to make a flawless. At the start of the 2nd rotation, you can already see the benefit 2) The longer you go, the higher the enemy levels. It's good for more challenging content as well as XP. With the benefit of free refinement and getting comparable amount of traces as running individual fissure. The longer you go, the harder enemies get. The harder enemies get, the longer they take to kill. Plus, you can do fissure missions without a relic, last I checked, meaning you can infinitely farm traces. There is no real benefit. Traces aren't even a valid carrot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 I saw this coming. DE knows that endless missions are pointless. So they try to do something about it. They add the ability to keep using relics in endless missions. However that's not how the community wants it. They want to spend one relic to get multiple rewards. Which is fair, since they have to go against harder enemies right? The problem here is that this ^ goes against DEs current philosophy. ^ this is one of the reasons DE changed the system to begin with. With this ^ system relic usage would diminish. Meaning people would have a stockple of relics. Its a catch 22. The community wants this. DE has trouble being OK with this. Doing this would be no better than doing a T3 survival or defense once again, it's just we get different rewards per rotation and it's on another tileset. So. I have a solution for both DE and the community. Lets go ahead with what DE has planned. However with each rotation the relics have a higher chance of dropping rare items. Now it can't be too crazy of an increase. People want better rewards? They gotta work for it. Each rotation offers a 0.50% increase for the uncommon and rare items. This means an hour into an endless survival you will have a 6% increase. This is not counting radiant relics. This is just a placeholder number. Of course you still have to use up a relic. This way people that want to work for better rewards have a way to do so. This also keeps DEs current design philosophy in check. Thats it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)A_SimpleName Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: The longer you go, the harder enemies get. The harder enemies get, the longer they take to kill. Plus, you can do fissure missions without a relic, last I checked, meaning you can infinitely farm traces. There is no real benefit. Traces aren't even a valid carrot. 1) Enemies up to 60mins Survival or 60 waves Defense are easily obliterated manageable (your experience may very) 2) There is nothing stopping you from doing regular fissure mission if that's your cup of tea. It's extra incentive for running endless. 3) You can still choose to not run a relic during the endless. As the traces having no real benefit and aren't a valid carrot, I disagree. Traces directly increases your chances of getting rares; therefore, it increases your probability within the realm of RNG. If you want DE to remove the RNG and guarantee drops (in a free to play game), you either have to prepare for some real grinding or are delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 1 minute ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said: If you want DE to remove the RNG and guarantee drops (in a free to play game), you either have to prepare for some real grinding or are delusional. Strawman fallacy. I never said anything close to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insizer Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 I haven't been on in a while, but what new endless missions are you talking about? Personally, I'd love being able to farm void traces without doing fissure missions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)A_SimpleName Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: Strawman fallacy. I never said anything close to that. Yes, I am guilty of using "you" (the word) as a generalizing term. So then, tell me what is it that you (DesecrateFlame) want from endless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 1 minute ago, Insizer said: I haven't been on in a while, but what new endless missions are you talking about? Personally, I'd love being able to farm void traces without doing fissure missions. see: 1 hour ago, AM-Bunny said: Endless Relic Gameplay • After 5 waves/5 minutes, you'll have the option to equip a new Relic for the next round • You'll be able to see your Relic reward before using another Relic • You'll also be able to see what Relics your teammates equip going into the next round • Void Traces earned will increase as you push further in endless missions • This will probably be included in The War Within update • See if a preview of Rebecca showing this new addition HERE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said: Yes, I am guilty of using "you" (the word) as a generalizing term. So then, tell me what is it that you (DesecrateFlame) want from endless? 1 relic per mission -or- increasing drop rates per wave -or- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/711783-new-endless-missions/ Edited October 28, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiel Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Actually it is still much better than the old keys because the old keys had cores and orokin cells in them. Ever run an hour long t4 survival and gotten 1 part? I have weee, I'm glad keys are dead long live single use relics, hail to the new endless system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-N7-Leonhart Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 I really do understand where DE comes from. But what could the players possibly want more? Even easier farming? If they do, then they have no idea what they ask for. It's already incredibly easy to get rare prime parts. Easier than this would mean even less things to do in Warframe than currently are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trichouette Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Honestly the ONLY thing I care about for endless missions, is the "traces loot will be bigger for each rotation" The rest, I couldn't care less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insizer Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: see: Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regenerating_Degenerate Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 How about give us two chances at the same relic before we use another one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calwon5 Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 It's not really endless if you are using new relics key in order to proceed longer. It's basically running a single mission but using up all your relics. This isn't endless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urlan Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Because this solution shown in the devstream misses what the community was wanting back from previous void endless missions - a feeling of getting rewarded for one's time without additional grind. While using additional relics does open possibilities for players who just hate returning to the liset, it doesn't reduce the increased grind required with relics versus void keys. Thus, yes, many players are not going to prefer this solution. There are players that would benefit from this, but they are a small subsection of the player-base. There is no catch 22, those are inescapable logic traps, this is more a disagreement in why players should keep playing - both sides have different viewpoints. One side plays the game, and seeks incentives to keep playing while the other develops the game and seeks reasons for players to grind more and maybe play more (and hopefully spend more). This is the core problem of Specters of the Rails and why so many players left with it, a disconnect between having something to do and the belief that grind increases playtime. For the thread suggestion, while an steadily increasing drop chance would reduce some player complaints about this endless relic system proposition, it doesn't address the core issue of the players not having anything to do in this system versus void keys. I do however agree that increasing rarity would be a useful step, but do not see that as an option with the previously stated opposing views as to how to retain players. Still, I can say that I would look forward to trying your variant as something of the sort has been asked for in the past with dark sector rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyborg-Rox Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Yeah, I don't get this either. There's no point in doing this as it practically mimics restarting the mission, minus the stronger enemies and increased Void Traces. I'd understand if the chance for rarer items was gradually increased for each rotation, but now there doesn't seem to be anything at all to attract this way of doing Fissures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSG501 Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) Yeah have to say when I saw the preview in devstream I was like... that's not endless, that's just starting another relic at set points. There's no improvement in odds of getting a better drop as the enemies get harder, the only benefit that there seems to be is higher drops of traces. I might as well go and do a quicker/easier relic run as the odds are exactly the same.... When I see endless I was thinking... the longer you stay the better the odds are of getting that 'rare' item or something similar to make it worthwhile to stay longer. Edited October 28, 2016 by LSG501 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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