The War Within: 19.1.0 Ash Revisited

[Anceto]

28 minutes ago, I-Am-MoMoJoJo said:

aah thx good to know, I had an issue with the Raptor Sortie the other day with an Ash trying to 4 it constantly and it seriously hampered everyone elses dmg on it, as soon as he stopped when we asked, Raptor melted.

yep, honestly throughout the time i played using ash prime, bladestorm the movie is fun and flashy at first, gets pretty annoying a few uses later but it's still a really good room nuke if you have the right build for it, so i kinda wished that they had made it as such that ash sends his shadow clones to do the bladestorming instead and affected enemies aren't locked in invulnerability mode

[Insizer]

13 hours ago, chuckdm said:

According to the wiki, you're right...mostly.  See here.  Long story short, she did exist prior to Salad V's experiments in her Gersemi form.  That brings up its own continuity issues, of course.  The idea that she even has an ability called "Hysteria" BEFORE she was driven mad is a little strange, though not entirely impossible.  That said, Valkyr Prime's art design is only about a dozen times closer to post-Salad Valkyr than any resemblance with Gersemi Valkyr, so it still doesn't really fit.

In any case, the fact that Banshee was one of the original 8 frames while Valkyr wasn't added until about 8 months later means that, even if Valkyr Prime is canon (I'm still not willing to say she is, but she COULD BE if they reworked her look a bit to more closely resemble Gersemi Valkyr) then there's still no legit reason why we haven't gotten Banshee Prime first.

I'll wager $10 that we'll get Mirage Prime next and Banshee will continue to get passed over for another year.  *sigh*  (Note: I'm wagering this against DE.  You other guys don't get $10 if they totally mindf**k me and actually do prime Mirage next.)

I don't really buy the gersemi form thing tbh. I think that Gersemi was just a premium skin of sorts meant to give the community something to chew on.

[Emulad0or]

5 minutes ago, Ookami_Nihonto said:

Please return the original Blade Storm, No Clones. 17 seconds. and True damage. At the very least get rid of the CLONES. Please.

Please don't. Ash is a Space Ninja, not a turret that sits there waiting for an enemy to show up so he can press 4 to kill it (and every other enemy "close" (60m) to it for just 25 energy). This is not Clicker Heroes where you just spam one button or just turn on a macro and win, this is Warframe. If the old "main Ash" can't play the new one, the problem is that the player can't play the game how it was supposed to, it can only press one key at a time, and if that's not enough, well, the frame is trash to them.

[sylent1]

Ash ult wasn't reworked. It was a lazy nerf. None of the issues were resolved, now it is just the worst. It would have been better to give him a whole new ult than this crippled version of the old.

[Punnilingus]

3 minutes ago, sylent1 said:

Ash ult wasn't reworked. It was a lazy nerf. None of the issues were resolved, now it is just the worst. It would have been better to give him a whole new ult than this crippled version of the old.

 

Precisely.

[Kalvorax]

16 hours ago, CrowMoxie said:

4) BladeStorm. Oh boy, here we go. So to just get to the point the two biggest things I'm hearing is that 1: even though it has the

marking stage, when you fire off the power you still are doing the animations like normal so you can still put the controls down

and not do anything, kinda in part not fixing his problem of just press 4 to win. And 2: that people are split in between "I love the

Bladestorm animations" and "I want to opt out of the animations and just send my shadows". I think I have a fix for this. So

another thing I felt was weird with Old man Ash's kit was that Teleport and Bladestorm didn't synergize, they clashed, especially

with Teleport's augment. It felt like one was trying to encroach on the other's job instead of working together. What I suggest is

that we give the people their options of opting out of the animation storm, and I wouldn't have thought of this without your new

synergy of Smokebomb and Bladestorm, so keep Bladestorm as is, ESPECIALLY the marking mode, I love it too much and I think

it's awesome as all get out. But when you fire it off it's just your shadows that get sent out and you free to resume what you were

previously doing. But what about the sweet animations?! Have no fear, have Teleport trigger it! What I mean by that is when in

marking mode when you use Teleport on a marked target, and only a marked target, so ally's or objects don't do it by accident, 

that instead of using 4 again to fire off Bladestorm that that cast of Teleport will trigger it instead, and now you get to be part of

the actions using those cool animations and everything resumes as normal as Bladestorm currently works. I would add that when

in marking mode using Teleport on a marked target will either cost half (so no free discounts on using Fatal Teleport on non-

marked targets) or the same as marking a single target, take your pick as what you feel is better. With this the augments currently

in they would have no conflict with this combo and in no way need changed. And yes that means for that single marked target

that triggered Bladestorm might get the effects of Fatal Teleport. Honestly I don't see that as much of a big deal as long as it just

stays at the first guy and doesn't get carried through the entire Bladestorm. Or just not count the Tele-Storm trigger as a Teleport

eligible for Fatal Teleport.

my god...give this man/lady a cookie....Use Mark mode, then Teleport for control over HOW the enemies are killed (how many times they are hit etc) and BS for the shadows to do the job.

Teleport would still be as is.

[Yuzai_No]

I think bladestorm should function like Mesa's ult. 

Bladestorm's attack range would be like a cone. To avoid press 4 to win. Players would actually need to get close to be more  effective 

Anyone caught within that attack range will be stricken by Ash and his clones at the same time

Lets say 10 enemies got caught within Ash attack range. Then Ash + 9 clones will attack at the same time. Enemies will only be stricken once. Depending on the number of enemies caught in his skill will be the cost of his energy. Let's say 3 per enemy so that would be 30 energy was used. This should prevent players having to wait a long time watching Ash doing his Bladestorm animation and would also avoid spamming the skill 

 

or a simpler idea

 

bring back the very first bladestorm but allow the players to stop it anytime by pressing 4 again. The energy cost will be decided on the number of enemies killed before it stops

 

Edited November 28, 2016 by Sekinin

[chaotea]

5 hours ago, I-Am-MoMoJoJo said:

Mesa's wasn't a direct nerf like Ash's was, Mesa was changes to allow people to target her 4 so she can now avoid nullifiers and kill priority targets, the old 4 was press it sit back and hope, now you can control the randomness to a degree which is actually quite helpful, Ash is also like this, but is far to slow at doing it because you cant aim while doing the ability like you can with Mesa.

Im afraid youve got the wrong idea about mesas power set here. (to note, mesa is still one of my mains, along with nova and inaros).

In the old version, mesa would pick a target from nearby to shoot, but would not target any units in a nulifier bubble (counting them as 'not being there'). Now you have to aim at enemies you want to kill, but you cannot target enemies in a nullifier bubble. So there is no 'avoiding' nuliffiers. They still dont count as targets.

The old 4 was 'sit back and hope' for the first few seconds, but it was powerful enough that even without any strength mods on the old Draco it would only take a few seconds to get up to max firing speed, at which point few enemies would last more than a second inside the ability range.

The new version not only requires you to aim at enemies to shoot (which means while you can 'control the randomness' it isnt helpful if there are enemies behind you) but the spread tightens so that you need to aim directly on an enemy to fire, and the area outside the firing circle gets so blurry and distorted that identifying enemies is very difficult and you'll just pan your mouse around randomly in order to maybe hit things.

The new ash has many benefits over mesas changes. For one thing, he can move while tagging, and (as far as i know) has no casting animation to start which leaves him momentarily vulnerable. The other thing is that the energy required for bladestorm was reworked aswell, while mesa's wasn't. Mesa still has the energy drain that it had pre-nerf, so while baldestorm costs 15 energy per enemy tagged, peacemaker costs 25 energy to cast, and 15 energy per second regardless of whether or not your firing.

So all in all, messas nerf was much heavier than ash's. It suffered alot of reduction in its utility, yet gained no compensation for the losses.

 

Also, remember Novas 4th nerf? That was rough for a time, but in the long run it actually made it better.

[TheFallenKing34]

I do believe that the new Ash will be an excellent asset to anyone that wants to learn the true ways of the ninja.

[_sheepy_]

6 hours ago, LightBriite said:

Yes, because me disagreeing with you and you resorting to snarky remarks is totally remarkable. 

My comments were relevant to yours.

yours on the other hand,were not.

Funny how you can say... " No, I'm just not a sarcastic glass-half empty kinda guy. If you really think Excal, Frost, Movement, Sniper, Shotgun, and boss Reworks were bad then you should prolly not play anymore "

This is not disagreeing with me as i did not say i thought any of those reworks are bad or in fact even mention them.

So if you're going to reply to my comments make it relevant to them,telling me what i think and i should probably not play anymore could be considered as snarky remarks for disagreeing with you.

[mon4rch]

idk , i dont like it .. cant play the same as before 

[Mokof]

Nice changes with this update, but still 2k endo every day ;] (0 RIVEN MOD)

[Tau.]

Something that doesn't look like it's gotten a lot of attention still, so let's talk about it: Teleport.

Even without the Fatal Teleport augment, it's still able to stagger enemies for a few seconds where they're open to melee finishers. However, it still faces the exact same functional problem that its Fatal version does. If the enemies are moving remotely fast, they ignore the stagger and just keep going - I suspect it's because the stagger actually has a hitbox that they no longer occupy (if they're running fast enough) by the time you arrive to them and it should go off. They dodge assassination by sheer dumb scrambling around. "Serpentine, SERPENTINE!"

In a controlled testing environment of "spawn enemy, do stuff to it" (like Simulacrum), the scenario of them running around wildly probably doesn't occur without deliberate setup, so DE may not have encountered it in testing, so its current design may still look solid to them. Players with any amount of time on Ash (that actually tried using his kit besides 4) would disagree.

If the Ash stuff is still open to feedback, I propose adding some sort of hard cc to Teleport, like a blind or hard stun, to said enemy when you cast it to hold them still, so the stagger and assassination part of it doesn't miss.

On that same note, adding (whatever cc Teleport's would end up being) to the stagger on Smokescreen as well (opening enemies up for melee finishers) would be a great addition to Ash's kit as well, allowing for alternate builds. Or hell, just open his Conclave Smokescreen augment up for PvE use. 

[TheGrnDragon]

Wow DE....Added nitain & forma to sortie? CAN YOU NOT SEE THE USELESS PILE OF THEM IN THE CORNER OVER THERE???!!...CLEM IS DISAPPOINTED!! I U HEAR THAT?? CLEM CLEM GRAKATA!!! CLEM GRAKATA!!! ..........And the ash rework actually isn't bad....Now you can actually aim the bladestorm...not kill random enemies....plus if you mod it ash right and have enough energy....u can kill a crap ton of enemies....just aim...then genocide... :D.....Any...Clem is upset.......*Now he's breaking my liset*....CLEM CLEM GRAKATA!!!! GRAKATA!!! CLEEMM!! *CRASH* BANG*......

[Winky96]

On 11/25/2016 at 2:52 PM, _N_I_N_T_E_N_D_O_ said:

 

• Endo (2K) (radically lowered drop chance and spread across new additions) 
• 3 Day Booster 
• 3 Nitain
• Forma
• Orokin Reactor/Catalyst Blueprint
• Exilus Adaptor Blueprint

Srsly guys? 

 

P.S. I just passed a sortie, received what do you think? Yes, 2000 endo. Thats not funny 

Agree with you my friend, I was doing sorties this entire week, 2000 endo 5 times in a row

[Entharias]

I played only Ash since this patch went out and i'm loving the Ash deluxe skin.
What i wanted to say is: why the energy color is not applied during the Ash's mark mode? (i mean those orange/red effects)

[Endurias]

Nitain in the Sortie? Yeah  nice i dont need it and after the Change i made the sortie every day and i Get what ? 1 Orokin Reaktor BP and the other Day only Nitain. I Dont will have the Crap Nitain, if i need it it give Enough in alerts.

[TsersingArron]

Revisit Oberon next... I mean he is good and all, but some changes would be nice. He is my fav frame, but i sadly hear a lot of bickering and banter on him and would like a redeeming relook to reamp the hype he once had for being a good all around frame like Chroma. THE PALADIN WILL PUSH ON... and remember kids: Lawful Good doesn't always mean 'Lawful Nice'...

Thank you for your time

[Cosmicus]

I like the new teleport alot, the blade storm is giving me hard feelings now though, it's neat but the old one was better for the style of game this is, it's fast paced.. half the time when i target stuff it's already dead before i hit 4 to engage again,, please keep everything but bring the original blade storm back!

[Educated_Beast]

Please replace nitain with Kuva if you must have a resource on reward list.  Kuva will always be used, nitain is only needed occasionally. 

[I-Am-MoMoJoJo]

17 hours ago, chaotea said:

Im afraid youve got the wrong idea about mesas power set here. (to note, mesa is still one of my mains, along with nova and inaros).

In the old version, mesa would pick a target from nearby to shoot, but would not target any units in a nulifier bubble (counting them as 'not being there'). Now you have to aim at enemies you want to kill, but you cannot target enemies in a nullifier bubble. So there is no 'avoiding' nuliffiers. They still dont count as targets.

The old 4 was 'sit back and hope' for the first few seconds, but it was powerful enough that even without any strength mods on the old Draco it would only take a few seconds to get up to max firing speed, at which point few enemies would last more than a second inside the ability range.

The new version not only requires you to aim at enemies to shoot (which means while you can 'control the randomness' it isnt helpful if there are enemies behind you) but the spread tightens so that you need to aim directly on an enemy to fire, and the area outside the firing circle gets so blurry and distorted that identifying enemies is very difficult and you'll just pan your mouse around randomly in order to maybe hit things.

The new ash has many benefits over mesas changes. For one thing, he can move while tagging, and (as far as i know) has no casting animation to start which leaves him momentarily vulnerable. The other thing is that the energy required for bladestorm was reworked aswell, while mesa's wasn't. Mesa still has the energy drain that it had pre-nerf, so while baldestorm costs 15 energy per enemy tagged, peacemaker costs 25 energy to cast, and 15 energy per second regardless of whether or not your firing.

So all in all, messas nerf was much heavier than ash's. It suffered alot of reduction in its utility, yet gained no compensation for the losses.

 

Also, remember Novas 4th nerf? That was rough for a time, but in the long run it actually made it better.

Just a quick note about things outside of Mesa's Peacemaker reticle being very blurry, I believe this is just something in the options menue that may need turning off, depth of field if I had to guess because I do not have this issue with peacemaker, hopefully that helps with the issue, blurriness is unwelcome in games and I would like it to go away.

By avoiding nullifiers I meant shooting in a direction different to them, it was kinda a silly statement to begin with, basically the point I was trying to make is that the effective DPS change for mesa was not affected because as long as you can keep aiming, you will still kill just as quickly, that is not the case for Ash because you have to aim his ability, then use it where Mesa just uses it, sorry for not making that clear, that was my bad XD

While using Mesa in draco was effective at wiping enemies quickly, higher level missions don't work that way and aiming at priority targets is extremely useful when it comes to that, like killing ancients so that they stop giving massive dmg mitigation to everyone else, or killing a large threat that could easily one shot someone is far easier with Mesa than it used to be, it not being useful for enemies behind ya, honestly I just don't understand that argument, you can turn around and shoot them, constantly being on the lookout is a good habit in Warframe in general, that rule is now also true with Mesa. 

Ash can move while casting yes, and that's rather important to his survivability unless ya use his smoke screen, even though he can move his overall survivability is worse than it was due to being invulnerable while casting Blade Storm (which he used to be able to do with the press of a button thus making him very difficult to kill so long as he could keep doing so), while Ash's Blade Storm energy cost was reworked for this change, he basically received a nerf in this regard because the energy per attack has gone up quite severely, he could nuke a whole room with 100 energy (with base efficiency), now it's 6 attacks for 90 energy or 6 attacks for 95 energy with the smoke screen attached (the cost of smoke screen is included in this),  for smoke screen to be worth casting, Ash needs to place at least 7 marks (again with base efficiency) which costs 105 energy, this is far fewer enemies than his original Blade Storm which costs 100 energy, so he was nerfed quite heavily on this account, Mesa was not changed with this which means no buff or nerf in this regard.

Ash mainly just lost loads of DPS and energy for the ability to target enemies in a clunky manner meaning he was actually quite heavily nerfed in terms of his Blade Storm, Mesa on the other hand, has no loss in DPS or energy but can target enemies in a smooth unclunky (I think I just made up a word) manner which means that her functionality increased and the only cost was ease of use, which seems like a pretty fair trade to me. Quick note here, being constantly vigilant to your surroundings is a skill in Warframe and now that is no exception with Mesa, yes you can control the randomness, and no need to shoot backwards when you can just turn around like you do with every other weapon in the game.

As for the Nova, Saryn, and Mag changes, each of them were essentially nerfed in one way but buffed in another, M Prime stopped being a pop em all now ability to a more constant area denial ability, I believe the change was entirely justified to it and I believe it benefited because the range expansion effected enemies that would not have otherwise spawned and thus indirectly made it affect more enemies and last longer, so the trade off was burst damage for more CC with still quite a large amount of damage attached.

Saryn went from a pop em all frame to being a more mass status based frame that could viral/poison proc large amounts of enemies in a very small amount of time, this made her effectively scale far better than her old form did (honestly I didn't play her old form much because it was simply too weak) due to just halving every things HP, the energy cost did go up quite a bit and that wasn't great but I feel like the scaling is worth it, it also is nowhere near as severe as other frames energy costs, so the trade off there was burst damage and energy for mass status procs and far more scalability.

Mags change made her weaker against shield enemies but viable for all other enemy types effectively making her useful in more scenarios and her scaling is still actually really good, so the trade off there was being less effective to certain enemy types but being more effective overall, this was actually a very smart change to her, but I personally do not like her because her magnetize bubbles constantly get in my way, it's actually more annoying than Ash's Blade Storm in my opinion.

So all in all Nova, Saryn, and Mag received changes that nerfed some things and buffed other things, changed the way they were used and generally made them more effective in the long run, the same can be said for Mesa, the same can not be said for Ash however. I could talk about all the other changes but this post is far to long as it is so I should stop before this becomes a eBook XD.

Hopefully this was a cohesive explanation of how I feel about Ash's change verses these other Warframes and why I feel that Ash got a pretty bad wrap here.

P.S. Because you talked about your mains I might as well add mine in, currently I have been maining Frost, Volt, and Loki, but have played copious amounts of Chroma, Rhino, and Nova :).

[Zounderth]

Okay Bladestorm is not how it used to be, yet it still have the same problem of Vomit Cam. I've seen a few YouFrame Tubers tackle the issue and i think i can safely say the consensus are: "Let Ash's Clones do the Bladestorm". I think it suits the current "target mode" better since whenever you're targeting enemies, you're pretty much close to them and you need to be mobile in doing so, so you're constantly on the move and finding targets at the same time. Smoke Screen had the best change as this enabled Ash to be really mobile, BUT funny enough you are still stopped by Bladestorm's Vomit Cam. Being "trapped" in this animation just goes against the spirit of the Target Mechanics and the new Smoke Screen which is creating this fluid gameplay for Ash. As sentimental as the Bladestorm Animation can be, after 4 years i think its time for function over "coolness". 

If Bladestorm is changed to Clones doing the dirty work, there might be an issue of : "Eh, i wonder how many enemies did the clones kill?"

The key to this is UI. If theres 10 enemies marked by the clones, a UI number on the bottom right screen (maybe anywhere thats good) will show the number in Green color indicating those enemies are marked by your clones. It will turn Red when enemies are killed by clones, Yellow if marked targets are killed by allies and/or White if marked enemies survived the BS attacks. Also, the radar will show a small red skull on enemies killed by Ash's clones momentarily. I think its important to know these details so that Ash players can further plan their attacks based on the UI (especially the radar skull icon). 

Energy usage could probably use some more tweaks either decrease the energy cost for BS or increase Ash's energy pool. Or perhaps make Ash regenerate energy whenever he is invisible? lol i dunno but something to make his energy more efficient.(mods are not helping that much).  

Teleport has a nice addition too, but this is nothing new, Ash had this ability before it just disappeared from a few past updates and no one noticed or cared lol. Its nice to see it came back but i hope it could be expanded upon further so Ash is able to teleport to mods, resource (Argon,Gallium etc), credits, ammo, health/energy globe etc. rather than just objects that have health bars. XD

Also, Ash Koga Skin O.O  it looks so sick! Amazing work by the design team! It just hits all the right notes for Ash!   

Edited November 30, 2016 by Zounderth

[chaotea]

3 hours ago, I-Am-MoMoJoJo said:

Just a quick note about things outside of Mesa's Peacemaker reticle being very blurry, I believe this is just something in the options menue that may need turning off, depth of field if I had to guess because I do not have this issue with peacemaker, hopefully that helps with the issue, blurriness is unwelcome in games and I would like it to go away.

While this might sort out the blurriness on mesa, it would remove blurs in the game i find enhance the visuals of the game. I understand its ment to represent mesas focusing on a point, but i find its detrimental to the actual usage.

 

As for the rest, all you wrote was sound. However i wasnt arguing that nerfs / balance changes weren't needed or that the frames arnt better balanced because of it. I simply ment to point out that in every case the initial community reaction was to the thought that these changes had ruined the frame or made them useless, yet time has shown this not to be the case. I say we simply give bladestorm that same chance.

(also, most of the comments you made to the benefits of the changes to mesa could be applied to bladestorm too. Target priority, ect.)

4 hours ago, I-Am-MoMoJoJo said:

P.S. Because you talked about your mains I might as well add mine in, currently I have been maining Frost, Volt, and Loki, but have played copious amounts of Chroma, Rhino, and Nova :).

I main Inaros (when i need a tank), nova (in defense types or assassination) and Mesa (in exterminates, ect). I still pull out my loki fir spy though, and Rhino when theres alot of procs incoming XD. TBH, i tend to cycle to a new frame every few weeks. After i max valkyr prime after 2 formas ill be switching to Ash, and try him out properly with the new stuff.

[tyrael_pl]

On 11/25/2016 at 8:51 PM, CGs_Knackie said:

Formas & Nitain into the sorties? :c

THIS! Forma after 3 missions (approx 30min) worth of playing to get something u can get in like 5 min? Thats worse then 2k endo ffs!

What a moronic idea to screw us over like that ;/

[I-Am-MoMoJoJo]

 

39 minutes ago, chaotea said:

While this might sort out the blurriness on mesa, it would remove blurs in the game i find enhance the visuals of the game. I understand its ment to represent mesas focusing on a point, but i find its detrimental to the actual usage.

I like the motion blur in Warframe more than most other games, probably due to its 3rd person nature, but in most games it feels overused and disorienting, I feel the same way with Depth of Field, even in Warframe, but can understand why some people like it. I can't really come up with a reasonable solution to that issue :(

I am all for giving Ash a chance because the case may be that he was simply too strong and this fixes that (I mean part of the reason I didn't play him was because I didn't want to be that guy who does the incredibly OP thing), the issue I have with it is that it doesn't fix his inherent issues like other fixes have such as TV mode and the fact that once Blade Storm is cast (after marking), enemies are still invulnerable till it finishes, which inhibits the ability to kill priority targets, so I believe the trade off for picking targets isn't as sound when compared to the downsides and the problems not being fixed, when it comes to other frames changes. I just feel like DE could have found a way of at least mitigating his core issues, while I'm glad Ash is getting looked at, I feel he needs more work, I made a suggestion earlier of basically tying his abilities in more ala Saryn by having enemies affected by his smoke screen getting marked automatically, so you can teleport to priority targets, smoke screen, then blade storm them, it can also eliminate TV mode by making just his clones attack while Ash was free to do other things, possibly make enemies that have yet to be attacked still killable by other means, then Ash could be balanced around that sort of idea. That way it solves both the major issues, while making his other abilities feel more relevant, although this solution may not be the greatest, I feel it's still better than what DE have currently implemented, and I hope they can come up with something better, that'd be swell :).