Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[--Q--ProjectX]

So the ash change is good goos job on that but the thing is that the energy marks cost way too much energy(speaking using a full 175% eff and a 200% strg build that is a must have in this frame)3.75 and 2.5 if you are invisible so in general if you use bladestorm you will kill 10 enemys aprox and lets say at lvl 80 you must use 2 marks so is 3.75×2×10=75 energy for 10 enemys and 2.5×2×10+6.25=56.25(the 6.25 energy is from the smoke sreen energy cost)

So is way too much energy and i only count 2 marks and 10 enemys(that is a mid tier misson and the logic of ash is lvl 100 or more so you will use in general a lot more energy).

My solution is to buff the dmg of blade storm to make ash be abble to use 1 mark(in a low-mid tier misson lvl 50-80), so that is 1 way to fix it.

And the other one is moreeven more easy,just make the marks energy cost lower. For example:Normal energy cost=10.Invisible energy cost=8 or 7.5.

DE pls make some more tweeks to ash now is just not worth it to use sadly(unless you have a ev trinity or a zenurik and 1 or 2 sets of arcane trikery but for solo or random mission is just too bad if you compare ash to other dmg frames)

PD:Sorry for my english im from argentina so im a argentenno XD(inster a face palm emoji).

 

[Awazx]

6 hours ago, minidelight said:

I dont get why in a fast paced shooter we have a power that takes all control from us and we just stand there watching enemies beeing ganked one by one without any input from the player.

IMHO this rework is mediocre

 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Awazx

[Troll_Logic]

Ok, Bladestorm was a bit OP.  I'll admit that.

And the new rework isn't that bad.

But there is one thing that is really bad.  The marking up to three times is bad.  Really bad.

Just make "marking a target" the same amount as marking three times and be done with it.  Maybe marking up to three times makes sense in a solo game.  A player runs into a room invisible, marks the targets according to their strength and then starts bladestorm.  Sounds nice, but will never ever happen in anything in other than a solo game.  There just isn't time.

Have the player mark each target once for maximum attack strength.

[OTF4L]

17 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

Ash was great as a frame that could push back HARD when a squad was being overwhelmed. But Ash was often abused, and I wouldn't argue otherwise. I've often found myself bored and guilty playing him on low-level missions. On high-level missions, it becomes clear Ash is a squishy frame that requires some real skill to play.

To say Ash overpowered every other frame is to betray a lack of familiarity with other frames.

That aside, the rework is abhorrent. And it's not sarcasm when I suggest that if the recent changes to Bladestorm remain, then every other frame should have to manually target enemies for AoE damage, as well. With new targeting mechanic applied to every warframe—and not just the one with this month's target on its back—then the community might reflect on the change with less relish and delight. Or, everyone will be overcome with joy, because the new mechanic proves to be design brilliance. Who's to say?

It was great using Ash as a big hammer. However—and apart from any arguments as to balance—I can understand how some people would be sick of watching unending Bladestorm animations, losing any sense of being personally engage in battle. I agree that Bladestorm needed to be change, but not in the way it was changed this weekend.

There have been smart suggestions that would have served the overall community better than the current rework. A burst AoE or a DoT AoE can be designed in such a way as to respect the vision behind Ash and the notion of a "blade storm."

The focus should be on resolving those endless, looping animations, rather than neutering yet another frame for standing apart from the crowd in some way.

DITTO :) +1

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

7 hours ago, Tengu_Bruxo said:

Well, to be honest, Ash has had this animation over 4 years now..(of which i've spent 41% of my time playing Warframe with Ash) of which only 2.75 years have had the "hidden blade" the reason for this was due to each individual weapon animation had to be added to his bladestrom which caused large hiccups, and server lag. (I.E. whatever melee weapon Ash held, that finisher animation had to be used).  I remember as well as many others out there, when you would get stuck in the air after BS, unable to finish the mission? good stuff right?

so in order to solve that problem they added a singular animation string with a "hidden blade" to help. So I have to disagree with you there, personally I've seen this animation for 4 years now, I've seen all the headaches, problems with game flow, as well as removing player activity, or down right trolling.

I'm of the opinion that this animation should be removed, allow the clones to do all the work, which free up Ash to continue to free flow around the map, helping team mates, reviving frames, and finishing objectives. being more of a team player, instead of "look how cool I'm! it took me a total of 12 seconds to eliminate 8 target, sweet right?"

Maybe they should make it where teleport allows the player to do the bladestorm animation, so that people like me who kinda like them can still see them.

[Blacknight00D]

1 hour ago, Chirishman343 said:

i'd disagree with this purely because it is an online game, so any lag could render you completely useless. at least depending on how generous the click time is.

Lag could render anyone completely useless. The prior Bladestorm was already slow. With most other warframes, their ultimate is a group affecting attack which is usually instant. Ash's is not.

The click time could be based from duration mods. Depending on how well this would play out, you might want faster compared to slower. Optimal time for a kill could be a second but that is my preference. Play with your Ash build. That is the point of Warframe - to build and play at your play style. The ideas I stated would increase player involvement which is exactly what people want. 

[Disaeo]

1 hour ago, Chirishman343 said:

i'd disagree with this purely because it is an online game, so any lag could render you completely useless. at least depending on how generous the click time is.

You gotta admit it looks cool tho :D

[OTF4L]

please remove this it was mistake

Edited November 30, 2016 by OTF4L
wrong post

[Chirishman343]

4 minutes ago, Blacknight00D said:

Lag could render anyone completely useless. The prior Bladestorm was already slow. With most other warframes, their ultimate is a group affecting attack which is usually instant. Ash's is not.

The click time could be based from duration mods. Depending on how well this would play out, you might want faster compared to slower. Optimal time for a kill could be a second but that is my preference. Play with your Ash build. That is the point of Warframe - to build and play at your play style. The ideas I stated would increase player involvement which is exactly what people want. 

don't get me wrong i love QTEs since i'm a huge God of War fan. but we've all seen QTEs done wrong before, and i would just hate to have a cool move so easily negated by lag. i think your idea is actually pretty good. though it might get old doing it 18 times a use lol

[Blacknight00D]

1 minute ago, Chirishman343 said:

don't get me wrong i love QTEs since i'm a huge God of War fan. but we've all seen QTEs done wrong before, and i would just hate to have a cool move so easily negated by lag. i think your idea is actually pretty good. though it might get old doing it 18 times a use lol

I get what you are saying but, again, everything gets negated by lag in this game. It would be up to DE to figure out how this would work.

I can see how it could get old but, at least your not sitting there waiting. Plus, no one said this method couldn't be amended with even more interactive features.

[TheSteelRat]

And here is my final thoughts on the rework, the 4th time i am posting in this thread and the last i am going to say about it until DE makes some changes.

The bladestorm rework is a hard nerf, and does nothing to fix the issues of the old system of lack of interaction, and being stuck watching the clone animations.

Used a high efficancy build in sortie 3 today, Vor Assassination.  I was using Arcane trickery to help me get more cloak time.  Arcane Trickery, or Naramon Shadowstep is pretty much required because of the short duration of smoke screen.  I would do Fatal Teleport to an enemy, which would acticate trickery, then press 4 and spin around to mark targets, and then press 4 again to blade storm.

Got locked into blade storm for almost 30 seconds because of the high efficancy, and being cloaked (even with the energy reduction) allowing me to mark MANY enemies.. and there were a lot of enemies.

All DE has done was add a mini-game of mark the targets before you do bladestorm, increased the cost, and gave you more damage (found out in Simulcrum, and not in the arsenal).  I have been playing this game for 18 months, and this is the worse thing DE has ever done short of a game crashing glitch

[Azuset]

This Ash “rework” needs some tweaks.

I have played since the initial release of beta and I have over 1160 hours logged as of this post and I have played Ash more than any other frame by around double for most of those hours.

Why I play Ash.

Ash is the only frame that is actually a Ninja and I love ninjas. I am probably the only one, but I love blade storm animation. Why do I love it? Again, Ash is a @(*()$ ninja assassinating the S#&$ out of everything. It’s what ninjas do. I agree its not the most engaging but it feels like I get to be an actual space ninja.

What is Ash’s role in warframe?

All Ash does did was kill stuff. He does not do much for a squad other than that. Yeah, he can pick up down party members with invis but that role of reviving players can be filled with other frames too.

I understand we are moving away from “4 to win” I’m good with that. I love to be engaged in the games I play. In general I don’t understand all the hate/QQ everyone does on the forms about balance in a co-op game. We all complete the mission and we all get the loot.

If all Ash adds to a team is being a massive damage dealer what is the big deal? He has nothing else going for him. We have tank frames, we have CC frames, we have support frames, we have healer frame. Why is a damage frame getting so much hate for bringing more damage to the team?

Should DE now change Ember, Equniox, Nova, Nyx and so on.. because they have AOE abilities that are not engaging????

I love Ash because I love melee. Melee is really hard to do in this game in a squad. Trying to run up to a group of mobs and chopping them down before a Soma, Boltor prime, or a Tonkor or other warframe powers clears the room is difficult and not that much fun. Ash allows me to teleport into close combat and get my hand dirty in melee and that is why I like to use him to run melee.

Ashes new play style seem like it can be a lot of fun. I feel like the intention of this version of Ash was for him to pop in and out of stealth blinking around the battle field killing enemies.

This play style can be fun but in its current condition we need to have some tweaks so we can accomplish that kind of playstyle. Also, Ash is a damage dealer and I believe he needs to have an ult that brings massive damage to a party.

What is stopping him from the damage dealer he should be?

The change to blade storm slowed him down. How so? We now have to stop and mark targets (okay no biggy its more engaging) but the other huge slow down was with this energy consumption for blade storm. I feel like the time it takes to mark targets was a good balance for slowing him down so the rest of the squad has something to do. The energy consumption slows him down too much. It’s not just a matter of nuking a room it’s the matter of marking up a few targets 3 times (like before) pressing the button and not having any way to recoup after you run out of energy.  

The question then is how can we balance this out a bit more?

First, Increased duration on Ash’s stealth. 15 second’s (or more) so we can run a max efficiency build if we choose to help with energy and survival after we blade storm.

Second, The energy cost for Blade storm needs to be reduced or Ash needs a way to force enemies to drop energy globes. In a 35 minute solo corpus survival I found myself running out of energy between life strike, invis every 6 seconds, and marking up a room for blade storm from time to time. I could not use blade storm that often because I was out of energy and the mods where not dropping much. Most of my damage was in the form of melee.

Instead of reducing the energy cost a teleport finisher could have a 100% chance to drop an energy globe. This would encourage combining our abilities together to reap the benefit and would add a layer of fun.

If this route is not appealing to speed him up allow Ash to mark targets via a cone shaped area or place a large circle on the ground so he can clean up small groups at a time quickly. This way we could pounce around the battel field.

Im not asking for 100% uptime on blade storm but as it stands its not much fun and his damage output for a damage frame is no good and that was the only thing he had to bring to squad play. I have not even tried to walk into a room of mobs 140 plus to see how he does on energy. My guess is its not good.

Aside note

Natural Talent – It was hard to tell but I don’t think this worked on speeding up with blade storm animations.  Can anyone else tell the difference?

Energy Conversion – Please take out the abilities that do not benefit from power strength that trigger the 50% boost. I.e Ash’s stealth will consume the buff and this is very lame.  

 

[Zrimers]

At the moment, the disadvantages of the new "Storm of blades" are:
-Too slow attack(First single, then attack)
-Tagging(For single targets there are 3 ability, and enemies must be 4 ability)
-No change(As we were waiting for the end ability, and waiting)
-Shurikens are not needed(Cost more energy and do less damage than 4 power)
I propose the following changes:
Perhaps we should bring back the old mechanics 4 abilities with slight modifications described below. (These changes emphasize the feature of Ashe as the killer.)
Storm of blades.
1.During the attack, ash will strike only one blow. If the player has time to press the keys in the right order, the enemy will be killed.(The number of keys pressed is determined by the health of the enemy. If the damage from the attack, ash less health the enemy twice, then you have to press two keys. If the damage from the attack, ash is equal to the health of the enemy and above, it is required to press one key )

(The keys consist of keys a,w,s,d, i.e., directions: left, top, bottom, right)
Thus "Storm of blades" will depend on the rate of reaction of the player.
2. After the release of "Storm of blades" ash gets invisibility for 1.5 seconds.(Often it turns out that when the ash comes from the "Storm of blades", he immediately gets hit by nearby enemies and the player can't do anything.)
3.Enemies just disappear after death.
Shuriken.
1.Requires 5 energy per use.
2.Removes the armor.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Zrimers

[Jitzul]

Sounds dumb,but why not make it a blade "storm". I.e. basically have a hurricane effect like inaros does,but instead of cc everyone caugh in the storm would get the old animation ash is known for.Add some dmg avoidance like titania's 4 and you're set.

[Blacknight00D]

9 minutes ago, Zrimers said:

At the moment, the disadvantages of the new "Storm of blades" are:
-Too slow attack(First single, then attack)
-Tagging(For single targets there are 3 ability, and enemies must be 4 ability)
-No change(As we were waiting for the end ability, and waiting)
-Shurikens are not needed(Cost more energy and do less damage than 4 power)
I propose the following changes:
Perhaps we should bring back the old mechanics 4 abilities with slight modifications described below. (These changes emphasize the feature of Ashe as the killer.)
Storm of blades.
1.During the attack, ash will strike only one blow. If the player has time to press the keys in the right order, the enemy will be killed.(The number of keys pressed is determined by the health of the enemy. If the damage from the attack, ash less health the enemy twice, then you have to press two keys. If the damage from the attack, ash is equal to the health of the enemy and above, it is required to press one key )

(The keys consist of keys a,w,s,d, i.e., directions: left, top, bottom, right)
Thus "Storm of blades" will depend on the rate of reaction of the player.
2. After the release of "Storm of blades" ash gets invisibility for 1.5 seconds.(Often it turns out that when the ash comes from the "Storm of blades", he immediately gets hit by nearby enemies and the player can't do anything.)
3.Enemies just disappear after death.
Shuriken.
1.Requires 5 energy per use.
2.Removes the armor.

Apparently you didn't see my post a page back.

[Zrimers]

Just now, Blacknight00D said:

Apparently you didn't see my post a page back.

Seen) Just added the idea of instant murder. And dependence on the health of the enemy.

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

49 minutes ago, Azuset said:

Aside note

Natural Talent – It was hard to tell but I don’t think this worked on speeding up with blade storm animations.  Can anyone else tell the difference?

Only Fury/Primed fury and/or Quickening ( if you channel before bladestorming ) affect it

With and Without primed fury it's like day and night, with primed fury & quickening i noticed less difference compared to just using primed fury , still an extra 20% speed at the cost of efficiency, not worth the hassle for me , primed fury is enough.

Edited November 30, 2016 by arm4geddon-117

[-CM-AbsoluteZero]

2 minutes ago, arm4geddon-117 said:

Only Fury/Primed fury and/or Quickening ( if you channel before bladestorming ) affect it

With and Without primed fury it's like day and night, with primed fury & quickening i noticed less difference compared to just using primed fury , still an extra 20% speed at the cost of efficiency, not worth the hassle for me , primed fury is enough.

It would be nice if Berserker would affect BS and finisher speed too.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

3 minutes ago, arm4geddon-117 said:

Only Fury/Primed fury and/or Quickening ( if you channel before bladestorming ) affect it

With and Without primed fury it's like day and night, with primed fury & quickening i noticed less difference compared to just using primed fury , still an extra 20% speed at the cost of efficiency, not worth the hassle for me , primed fury is enough.

Arcane Strike also works. 

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

ah i don't own that one so i couldn't tell, good to know :P

and yeah if berserker could affect it, that'd be amazing

Edited November 30, 2016 by arm4geddon-117

[YUNoJump]

6 hours ago, Enno69 said:

I believe you can now teleport to anything that have health, so that would include terminals, right ?

 

It needs to have an actual health bar, ie be killable. Terminals are objects but they can't be destroyed, so you can't teleport to them.

[DatDarkOne]

I'm I the only one to get Ash's Smoke Screen to 20 seconds? I did it by sacrificing some range. Still have good power str to do damage. This is on Ash prime without any forma. It's not Loki or Ivara long, but it a pretty good duration so far for me.

I'm planning to forma him to get back some range.

[Dragazer]

2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I'm I the only one to get Ash's Smoke Screen to 20 seconds? I did it by sacrificing some range. Still have good power str to do damage. This is on Ash prime without any forma. It's not Loki or Ivara long, but it a pretty good duration so far for me.

I'm planning to forma him to get back some range.

How is the efficiency though? Blade storm has to be draining a lot for that high of a power duration.

[DatDarkOne]

15 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

How is the efficiency though? Blade storm has to be draining a lot for that high of a power duration.

Efficiency is at about 130%, Duration close to 230-250%, and Power str at about 170-190%.  This isn't exact numbers as I'm not in game at the moment. Range got ganked to just over 55%.  It leave my teleport and BS range to about 50 meters each.  Which is why I'm gonna forma him to fill the empty slot to get more range back.  It's still a work in progress, but not bad on energy.  Well, at least not like Ivara can be which is the frame I'm most use to.  Since I'm use to Ivara's energy consumption, Ash's isn't a problem at all.  Especially once Zenurik kicks in.  Hope this helps.  :D

edit:   This was all without using any invisibility to lessen the energy cost.  I was playing an excavation mission with a group during the testing. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by DatDarkOne
correction and more info.

[OTF4L]

2 hours ago, Blacknight00D said:

I get what you are saying but, again, everything gets negated by lag in this game. It would be up to DE to figure out how this would work.

I can see how it could get old but, at least your not sitting there waiting. Plus, no one said this method couldn't be amended with even more interactive features.

Yes and I like it because it maintains the "Spirit" of ashes current functionality,   

I am however finished talking about Ash, As others have said I think there is enough here for DE to critically examine and decide what is best for the player base and thus the game in general.  Thus this will be my last post on the subject.

I would like to just take a paragraph or 2 to give the proper context to my comments.
The first thing I noticed when I started playing this game 1 year ago is that:

- Warframe plays like a game designed by players and lacked a lot of the sterile corporate interventions that destroys most games.  Yet still appears to have a sustainable profit model that can perpetuate its growth and development well into the future.  

- The 2nd thing I noticed is that I the player could choose how difficult content was, by deciding which "Tools" (I refer to Warframes, Companions and Weapons as tools) I chose to take on a mission.

- 3rd I noticed that while feature rich the modification and tool acquisition system was quite simple and intuitive. In fact I would even call it elegant.  And I seldom get to use that word in reference to any project. (kudos again to DE) 

- 4th thing I noticed is there was no right or wrong way to build "Tools" or play them, instead I found there were just easier builds for specific purposes.  

This was all perfect for when I wanted to slash and bash but still advance my account or when I wanted to put a lot of effort and thought into my play time.  This was also perfectly suited to the extremely varied age ranges of my children (9.12,17,oldest is adult).  Thus we had a game we could all play together as a family.  I even made a clan that is now a family value centric mountain clan with over 100 members and currently doing well.  Due to all of the computers and players in my household i'm not much of a "game hopper".  We tend to pick a game and mostly stick to it and put most of our efforts into being as strong as we can be in that game.

I would like to restate though that change is possible and necessary for improvement and growth. However at any given time this game has a "Spirit" a "Feel".  Now I'm not talking in the singular sense of just the content or the warframes or the weapons. The sum of those parts creates a "Spirit" of the "tools" and the sum of those things create a "Spirit" of the game.  The feel you get when you play it.  With any large project the content takes on a life of its own the total sum of these things is what I refer to as the "spirit" or "feel" of the game.  My concern is that this "Spirit" is different from what it was when I started playing WarFrame.  If this is intentional or Ad-Hoc only DE can say.   Maybe the current "Spirit" is not what DE wants?  It does not change the fact that it exists and that the players have experianced it.  Once created each weapon or warframe has its own "Spirit" which is the sum of its functionality and "Feel".  It is very impressive that DE plays this game as well.  All I ask is that DE "listens" to the "content" as much as they listen to the players.   Whatever DE decides to do now or in the future I would strongly suggest that they put forth best efforts to maintain the "spirit" of the game.  

I for one don't like the direction of several of the last few warframe nerfs, Ash Included.  Yes one persons "Nerf" is another persons "Feature" I define a nerf as change that does not maintain the "spirit" or "Integrity" of its original functionality.  As with any large project there are un intentional effects of changes and us the players do not know if they are intentional or side effects. If it is intentional or not, once the players experience it and spend time and effort adapting to it it becomes part of the total experience.  As I have said before DE is incredibly creative and talented.  However All change is not good.  As a player I realize that what we want isn't always what the game needs. Unfortunately I sometimes feel as though there is no "core vision" or "scope" regarding the game in general and how some things effect others. There are benefits to this development style and as I outlined above there are also negatives to this.  Only time will tell the correct path.

Nuff said.  I appreciate DE and their efforts thus far.  I am thankful for the existence of this game.  I know DE can rise to the challenges before them.  I look forward to seeing what the future holds for WarFrame and can only hope it continues to fit our needs as a Family and a Clan.