Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Aekhon]

I'll post here what is essentially what I already posted in this update's megathread:  marking ruins Bladestorm.  It simply takes too long to mark enemies 3 times, even if you just frantically pan back and forth.  If the point to marking was to supposedly make BS more "tactical", then we can really only mark while invisible (cause Ash is not a tank), and Smoke Screen doesn't last long enough for that, unless you're only trying to mark one or two enemies - and in that case, either Teleport or Seeking Shuriken + a good melee weapon are vastly better options.  In short, there's no point to marking.

I mention this now because the GIF you guys put up showing off the new clones doing their thing (which I'm fine with) makes it seem as though all targets are marked one time automatically when you first go into marking mode.  This would be a dramatic improvement over what we have now, and would make Bladestorm useful again.  I would personally rather see marking done away with entirely, and just have our clones go after random enemies like how Bladestorm used to be before the nerf, but if marking must stay in, I think having a number of nearby targets marked once upon initial activation is a fair compromise. 

[Hypernaut1]

I don't like it. It feels too much like a cast to me. May as well be a shuriken. 

Maybe I'll get used to it, but for me it's lost some of its "punch"

[Yperkeimenos]

Actually no,that's not what i'm saying because i'd have reported it in the bug section if it was so. When i made this post it these changes weren't implemented yet and it wasn't clear if activating teleport on any target and not just a marked one,while BS was active, would cause Ash to join his clones.

EDIT : Double post, please remove.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Yperkeimenos

[Yperkeimenos]

10 hours ago, True_Naeblis said:

You only teleport and join in killing on marked targets; unmarked targets should still be free for Fatal Teleport use. Are you saying that it still teleports in and does the animation on unmarked targets, because it shouldn't be doing so.

Actually no,that's not what i'm saying because i'd have reported it in the bug section if it was so. When i made this post these changes weren't implemented yet and it wasn't clear if activating teleport on any target and not just a marked one,while BS was active, would cause Ash to join his clones.

[(PSN)ACiDiC_SiNz]

Any pc players on this thread that tested out the new Ash 3.0? Please give us an update on performance, thoughts etc? I'm on console so will hae to waits weeks before the update lands. Thanks

[Shad0wWatcher]

1 hour ago, (PS4)ACiDiC_SiNz said:

Any pc players on this thread that tested out the new Ash 3.0? Please give us an update on performance, thoughts etc? I'm on console so will hae to waits weeks before the update lands. Thanks

Think of World of Fire with the ability to pick your targets instead of it being just on and going on, but then with clones instead of fire, with the option to go in and revert to bladestorm 2.0. That is probable the most accurate description i can give in 1 sentence.

[Nazrethim]

hace 2 horas, (PS4)ACiDiC_SiNz dijo:

Any pc players on this thread that tested out the new Ash 3.0? Please give us an update on performance, thoughts etc? I'm on console so will hae to waits weeks before the update lands. Thanks

Shuriken: nothing changed. Now made completely useless by BS as a ranged attack with bleed. Augment makes it worth using to some extent.

SScreen: nothing changed, SShadow is still not affected by range.

Teleport: nothing changed. Still needs the augment for the dem automatic finisher.

BS: kinda the same thing. Start marking mode, mark by wiggling, still an energy sink when normal but it's now actually reasonable if invisible in terms of cost. When you initiate it Ash makes a signal with his hand and 2 clones show up to start the bladestorm. It's a bit like a mix of Ash Revisited and Assassin's Creed Brotherhood.  Also you can join to the bladestorm (for whatever reason as it's not actually worth doing it for practical purposes) by using Teleport on a marked target. Rising Storm is still 100% useless.

 

Conclave:

Ash abilities still very situational as to be nigh useless (teleport, Smoke Screen) or completely useless (Shuriken, Blade Storm)

Edited February 17, 2018 by Nazrethim

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

Think of World of Fire with the ability to pick your targets instead of it being just on and going on, but then with clones instead of fire, with the option to go in and revert to bladestorm 2.0. That is probable the most accurate description i can give in 1 sentence.

Yeah, except bladestorm does 10x more finisher damage and most likely kills the enemy.... BIG DIFFERENCE

Edited February 17, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Hypernaut1]

26 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Shuriken: nothing changed. Now made completely useless by BS as a ranged attack with bleed. Augment makes it worth using to some extent.

 

Shuriken really needs to be looked at now. I'm disappointed that DE could just so haphazardly make a change and not consider the rest of his abilities. 

Personally, I don't even find the augment all that useful either since the clones do finisher damage. 

They could've made shuriken AWESOME if they took my idea and made the shuriken turn into clones when marking... But then people would still complain about the bladestorm cinematic.

Unless DE is willing to replace the (signature) ability completely, which i doubt.... There's not much they could do to make to make it worth while.

Unless shuriken could auto triple-mark a marked enemy? 

[Nazrethim]

hace 13 minutos, Hypernaut1 dijo:

Shuriken really needs to be looked at now. I'm disappointed that DE could just so haphazardly make a change and not consider the rest of his abilities. 

Like I said before, it's Ash Revisited all over again. Except this time they didn't dangle a shiny skin to distract the players, though they sneaked it in (so to speak) alongside other frames.

hace 13 minutos, Hypernaut1 dijo:

Personally, I don't even find the augment all that useful either since the clones do finisher damage. 

Well, consider that the Armor strip on a Sortie Boss is a buff to the whole team or to augment your own non-bladestorm damage.

hace 13 minutos, Hypernaut1 dijo:

Unless DE is willing to replace the (signature) ability completely, which i doubt.... There's not much they could do to make to make it worth while.

The problem is that DE needs to grow out of the "Ash = Blade Storm" mindset.

hace 13 minutos, Hypernaut1 dijo:

Unless shuriken could auto triple-mark a marked enemy? 

That would be neat. But then you get into the part of why have Blade Storm marking at all? It would be really good actually. Sort of like Nidus 4, except instead of getting charges you mark enemies by using Ash's other abilities, then release. SScreen could apply marks with the radial stagger and Teleport could apply marks to enemies who witness your assassinations.

[StonedMakak]

10 hours ago, (PS4)ACiDiC_SiNz said:

Any pc players on this thread that tested out the new Ash 3.0? Please give us an update on performance, thoughts etc? I'm on console so will hae to waits weeks before the update lands. Thanks

If you like the cutscene you might be a bit irked about the extra button press to get to it.

If you're like me, and despise it, it is a substantial improvement. Don't get me wrong, nothing has really changed about the way you play Ash (as others have noted), but what did change for me is the way I perceive playing Ash. The gameplay is no longer interrupted needlessly.

It's very similar to the recent fix to sprint toggle (don't know if console folk had to deal with the same bug?) - for the longest time it would get turned off by basically anything other than moving, and you had to hit that button every other second. After it got fixed I realized just how irritating it has been all those years. Same with Ash 3.0 (although it's more of a 2.5 IMHO).

[Dr.Wuzzah]

I'm so confused, can someone clarify why Ash still needs any major changes after the recent tweaks to blamestorm?

1 - strips armour

2 - survivability (although +3second per finisher would be nice or something to that affect)

3 - high single target damage or easy escape

4 - Now is really fun to use with not being stuck in an animation. And marking just takes a lil effort

[Blu3]

So after the last Update of Ash, a lot has changed in a good way. However, Ash still needs some love for his Bladestorm and possibly his other abilities but I will only touch his Bladestorm now.

 

Bladestorm suggestions:

Problem 1:
His Bladestorm is still lackluster with it's marking mechanic. The first problem here is the time it takes to mark the targets and the range in which the targets keep their markings.

Suggestion:
No longer let the markings disappear. Once a target is marked it stays marked until it gets killed, it walks inside a nullifier bubble or Ash runs out of energy while his Bladestorm is active (more the last one later).

Problem 2:
Ash should not need to wave his crosshair from enemy to enemy. If one needs to hover his crosshair over every enemy he might as well just take a Soma Prime and shoot them immediately.

Suggestion:
Ash should have a circle around his crosshair that marks enemies when they "touch" the circle. The circle should cover a certain field of view and should scale with Ash's range (Similar to Mesa's Peacemaker ability. However, it should have a fixed size and be able to mark the enemies on any body part).
Additionally, Ash should also apply all 3 marks at once without using energy just now. It should instead show the energy cost of all applied marks with the other buffs in the upper right corner of the screen.
After Ash reactivates his Bladestorm the energy should be used whenever a shadow or Ash himself uses a mark by attacking a target (When his energy is depleted all marks should disappear as stated above).

Problem 3:
Another problem that occurred in the latest patch comes with the new mechanic of his Teleport ability. Bladestorm now uses 2 abilities while it is active since the player cannot use his Teleport to execute high priority targets while they are marked and Bladestorm is active.

Suggestion 1:
While Bladestorm is active Ash should be able to recast Bladestorm (without looking at an enemy) to help his shadows while his Teleport stays fully functional.

Suggestion 2:
His Teleport stays the way it is. His Bladestorm, however, can be used to mark the next set of enemies while the first set gets attacked by his shadows. This way Ash can immediately reuse his Bladestorm to kill the next set of enemies after the first set is dealt with.

Problem 4:
This is not really a problem but it would still be very nice if this would get a little attention. In fissure mission when enemies get corrupted they will lose all marks applied to them.

Suggestion:
This is already partially fixed with my suggestion for problem 2 since it is easier to reapply the marks, however, it would be better to keep the marks on the enemies after they got corrupted even if that means that there is the possibility for the shadows or Ash to attack invincible targets.

 

These changes are all buffs or quality of life changes for Ash's Bladestorm ability and I know that Ash is very strong already. But he still needs to apply his marks a lot faster and more efficient to really be effective in solo and team play.

[Dragazer]

3 hours ago, Dr.Wuzzah said:

I'm so confused, can someone clarify why Ash still needs any major changes after the recent tweaks to blamestorm?

1 - strips armour

2 - survivability (although +3second per finisher would be nice or something to that affect)

3 - high single target damage or easy escape

4 - Now is really fun to use with not being stuck in an animation. And marking just takes a lil effort

1 - augments shouldn't be required to make abilties useful

Problem is that little effort can be easily put into just using a gun to wipe out crowds if the aiming has to be so precise and single targeted for BS.

Problem is BS has no meaningful purpose, single target dmg is covered by teleport+CL

and AoE crowd clear can be covered by your weapons.

5 minutes ago, Blu3Souls said:

Ash should have a circle around his crosshair that marks enemies when they "touch" the circle. The circle should cover a certain field of view and should scale with Ash's range (Similar to Mesa's Peacemaker ability. However, it should have a fixed size and be able to mark the enemies on any body part).
Additionally, Ash should also apply all 3 marks at once without using energy just now. It should instead show the energy cost of all applied marks with the other buffs in the upper right corner of the screen.
After Ash reactivates his Bladestorm the energy should be used whenever a shadow or Ash himself uses a mark by attacking a target (When his energy is depleted all marks should disappear as stated above).

This change alone would actually make BS relevant again in Ash's kit.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Dragazer

[Shad0wWatcher]

On 2/17/2018 at 2:06 PM, Hypernaut1 said:

Yeah, except bladestorm does 10x more finisher damage and most likely kills the enemy.... BIG DIFFERENCE

Well yeah but i meant in terms of how it feels. Not the damage

[Dr.Wuzzah]

8 hours ago, Dragazer said:

1 - augments shouldn't be required to make abilties useful

Problem is that little effort can be easily put into just using a gun to wipe out crowds if the aiming has to be so precise and single targeted for BS.

Problem is BS has no meaningful purpose, single target dmg is covered by teleport+CL

and AoE crowd clear can be covered by your weapons.

This change alone would actually make BS relevant again in Ash's kit.

A lot of frames rely on their augments so that's just a general complaint which I have to agree with.

Saying bs isn't relevant is certainly harsh though. Taking down lvl 100 enemies is much faster with bladestorm than with with any guns I can think of (although let me know if I'm wrong would need to acquire those weapons). Mainly because I can mark a group in less than 3 seconds and then press a button and proceed to do whatever I want, those guys are as good as dead. Although for anything other than that, ya gunning down enemies is potentially faster depending on the gun and situation.

[Urlan]

11 minutes ago, Dr.Wuzzah said:

A lot of frames rely on their augments so that's just a general complaint which I have to agree with.

Saying bs isn't relevant is certainly harsh though. Taking down lvl 100 enemies is much faster with bladestorm than with with any guns I can think of (although let me know if I'm wrong would need to acquire those weapons). Mainly because I can mark a group in less than 3 seconds and then press a button and proceed to do whatever I want, those guys are as good as dead. Although for anything other than that, ya gunning down enemies is potentially faster depending on the gun and situation.

I would wager that the comment is more that the ability shouldn't be worthless or less than ideal without the augment; that a warframe should be fully functional in their niche without augments and instead use them as changes of playstyle or preference. A similar argument could be made for arcane enhancements being put on cosmetics - which DE Steve seems to be pushing for removing form cosmetics and putting into a special zone of the mod screen - if you need the augments to make the ability useful, it should be built-in which has also been said of Hydroid whose augments and abilities are in a similar situation. Taking out a lvl 100 with Teleport is one activation and a melee attack, which seems certainly less energy than marking and then activating and hoping that the main target in a group dies. Nothing wrong with that honest, having focused death alongside mass impersonal attacks, but there is a big difference in efficiency. Honestly, I would have liked Bladestorm, if considered less ideal, then to be replaced by an exalted wristblade move that empowered or made the other abilities cheaper while active.

[Nazrethim]

hace 14 horas, Dr.Wuzzah dijo:

I'm so confused, can someone clarify why Ash still needs any major changes after the recent tweaks to blamestorm?

1 - strips armour

Augment required. Outside of the situations where that Augment is optimal (sortie bosses and pretty much nothing else) the "new" BS flat out replaces Shuriken.

hace 14 horas, Dr.Wuzzah dijo:

2 - survivability (although +3second per finisher would be nice or something to that affect)

Augment is still rather sh*tty.

hace 14 horas, Dr.Wuzzah dijo:

3 - high single target damage or easy escape

Still requires the augment for it's basic assassination function.

hace 14 horas, Dr.Wuzzah dijo:

4 - Now is really fun to use with not being stuck in an animation. And marking just takes a lil effort

Marking reticle should be slightly wider. Cost should be 6 by default without that invisibility dependency. Augment is pointless.

 

The problem is that DE (and you as well as many others) need to grow out of "Ash = Blade Storm" mindset.

[Dr.Wuzzah]

52 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

The problem is that DE (and you as well as many others) need to grow out of "Ash = Blade Storm" mindset.

I agree with you for the most part but I'm not sure what you mean by bladestorm mindset. You can build him 3 ways and only one build doesn't need an augment (bladestorm) but that doesn't mean such a mindset exists. Pretty bold claim. Pretty sure everyone wants either an augment slot or new augments and for some of the old ones to be implemented within the abilities they are for like ash and his fatal teleport.

[Nazrethim]

hace 5 minutos, Dr.Wuzzah dijo:

I agree with you for the most part but I'm not sure what you mean by bladestorm mindset. You can build him 3 ways and only one build doesn't need an augment (bladestorm) but that doesn't mean such a mindset exists. Pretty bold claim. Pretty sure everyone wants either an augment slot or new augments and for some of the old ones to be implemented within the abilities they are for like ash and his fatal teleport.

With that statement I'm saying most people focus on Blade Storm alone. It's justified as BS has been the main problem, but it still boggles the mind that people ignore some critical flaws on the rest of the set of abilities and augments.

See how many speak of BS, but almost nobody does about Rising Storm, despite BS being usable and RS being pointless since Body Count was introduced to the game.

[(PSN)ACiDiC_SiNz]

On 2/17/2018 at 2:59 PM, Nazrethim said:

Shuriken: nothing changed. Now made completely useless by BS as a ranged attack with bleed. Augment makes it worth using to some extent.

SScreen: nothing changed, SShadow is still not affected by range.

Teleport: nothing changed. Still needs the augment for the dem automatic finisher.

BS: kinda the same thing. Start marking mode, mark by wiggling, still an energy sink when normal but it's now actually reasonable if invisible in terms of cost. When you initiate it Ash makes a signal with his hand and 2 clones show up to start the bladestorm. It's a bit like a mix of Ash Revisited and Assassin's Creed Brotherhood.  Also you can join to the bladestorm (for whatever reason as it's not actually worth doing it for practical purposes) by using Teleport on a marked target. Rising Storm is still 100% useless.

 

Conclave:

Ash abilities still very situational as to be nigh useless (teleport, Smoke Screen) or completely useless (Shuriken, Blade Storm)

Thank you for the update Naz. Damn bro, I would have thought DE would really put their thinking caps on since they have started reworking (buffs/nerfs) to frames and weapons. Do you think they left out the augments on purpose? 

So, what you are saying the energy cost is a bit better but still high compared to the rest? Would you mind sharing your Ash build?

 

[(PSN)Carnatus]

There are so many great Warframes now, Warframes who can kill large numbers of enemies quickly. My beloved Nidus being a prime example. In the time it takes for an Ash to mark enemies, they'll be dead before he can even activate it.

I'm sure others have already said this (countless others) and that's simply because it's the truth, truth only a fool would argue with. Ash, in most player's hands, simply can't keep up (despite being an actual effing Ninja) and that makes him not fun to play as.

Mesa has a press 4 to win ability, much like Ash's used to be, yet I don't see her getting nerfed anytime soon. You wanna fix Ash? Keep the clones, remove the need to mark. Just have a ton of clones pop out and wreck enemies near and far for awhile. That, and give him his own second and third abilities- instead of downgraded versions of Loki's.

[Nazrethim]

hace 1 hora, (PS4)ACiDiC_SiNz dijo:

Thank you for the update Naz. Damn bro, I would have thought DE would really put their thinking caps on since they have started reworking (buffs/nerfs) to frames and weapons. Do you think they left out the augments on purpose? 

So, what you are saying the energy cost is a bit better but still high compared to the rest? Would you mind sharing your Ash build?

 

As I said, DE thinks "Ash = Blade Storm" so they ignored everything else. The energy cost pre-revisit was about 5.5 per attack. After revisit it suffered a big nerf, almost a 200% increase in cost. The 33% cost reduction for being invisibile wasn't enough to counter such a huge nerf, all under the pretense of "synergy" (in fact dependency isn't real synergy). Now it costs 12 or 6 if invisible. The cost of invisible is good and should be the default without the invisibility dependency.

My build varies according to mission or mood. But my usual all-purpose build consists of:

Steel Charge (aura), Handspring (Exilus)

Hunter Adrenaline (formerly Rage), Vitality, Steel Fiber/Redirection, Vigilante Pursuit (formerly Enemy Sense)

Primed Continuity/Rending Turn, Augment (SShuriken, FTeleport or SShadow depending on mission), Armored Agility/2nd Augment

I don't spam abilities, rather using them tactically. Still BS is too dem expensive without invisibility or Efficiency. The recent change made it usable if invisible.

The point is that BS hits hard, and for some that's enough to justify the ridiculous cost that forced stacking Effciiency and broken infinite generators together just to actually be able to use the ability for it's intended purpose, blatantly ignoring the ability is slow as a snail (which they handwaved with the excuse that "if you got a +40% or more Riven it's  pretty fast!" disregarding Rivens are rare as sh*t and getting a 40% attack speed riven that isn't cr*p is not only an rng hell but also locks you to a single weapon).

[Anthraxicus]

I think Ash is fun to play now. My only concern is that DE didn't address the most problematic part of Bladestorm, which is marking targets.

They should implement that suggestion to add a aiming circle, similar to Mesa. That would make it a lot quicker to mark targets amidst a mayhem.

[Dragazer]

1 hour ago, Anthraxicus said:

I think Ash is fun to play now. My only concern is that DE didn't address the most problematic part of Bladestorm, which is marking targets.

They should implement that suggestion to add a aiming circle, similar to Mesa. That would make it a lot quicker to mark targets amidst a mayhem.

Yeah and let the enemies get the full 3 marks right away. Having to sweep my mouse 3 times over each enemy is just adding unnecessary clunkiness