Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Artekkor]

2 minutes ago, izzatuw said:

I was pretty indifferent to Press 4 to win Ash. I'm not saying the old Ash was good but this one? What does this Ash bring to the table?

This particular Ash, i believe, brings a lot of ability-dealt damage. But not AoE damage like Ember but a single-target damage instead. Which means he's perfect for sniping out heavy units in late game.

He's an Assassin so he does what Assassins do best - deals S#&$ ton of damage to a single target.

[Marvelous_A]

13 minutes ago, Avereth said:

My biggest issue with the new bladestorm is that I can't think of any reason you wouldn't use Mesa in the same situation since instead of marking they're already dead from your guns.

Yeah you got a point, new BS is best use in defense missions to make use of long marking range and avoid running across the map finding enemies (which with that time you can as well kill them directly). For this purpose Mesa would do a better job, as her PM kills enemies the moment Mesa sees them so they can't deal damage to your team, besides Shatter Shield is a much more reliable defensive ability than Smoke Bomb to prevent damage when aiming.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Marvelous_A

[Dragazer]

16 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

Not on console yet, getting ready for it...Whats the damage with Energy Conversion, power drift, growing power, and Trans Fort? 

Its the exact same...

 

There is no trade-off, Blade storm was just nerfed

[izzatuw]

18 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I use it just fine honestly. you're overreacting. 

It takes a bit of adjustment compared to using the old room nuke, but it's definitely not useless or ineffective.

 

The problem being this is an ultimate. Not his first, not his 2nd, not even his 3rd.

 

Sure I can deal a butt load of damage but in a primarily co-op game you'd be lucky if you could actually rack up as many BS kills as you'd want before someone else takes those marks from you.

16 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

if we're going down the road of "why would i..." than more than half of the games content is by that logic meaningless. Not everyone plays min max and preference is as always relevant. You're much better off just saying you don't like the changes. because its not like pre nerf ash was better than your optimal tonkor build.

I for one like what they did with ash. Maybe people need to stop thinking re works objectively buff the warframe. As i recall they never said they were aiming to change what ashes 4 did. Just how its done.

Here's the thing. 

 

let's compare other frames. Ash's ult deals tons of damage, cool. Frost's Ult deals damage and permanently removes armor from affected enemies. Rhino Stomp deals damage and has CC. 

 

 

At this point Molecular Prime and Bladestorm are almost the same except one you have to let the enemies live, with the other you can actively kill the enemies while the ability's in use. One also lets you and your teammates do much more damage from any source.

 

See these are the things that weapons have difficulty doing. They are not a viable source of CC, damage buffing or armor removal. Weapons however are viable sources for damage, something Ash's ult offers.

Edited December 5, 2016 by izzatuw

[Nazrethim]

Teleport Rework:

Teleport range is now 50m.

If you target any non-unit surface (objects, tileset) you teleport to that position.

If you aim at an enemy you teleport behind them and automatically do a Finisher

Fatal Teleport: +200% Finisher damage, 50% energy refunded on kill.

 

There, fixed it.

[GreyEnneract]

5 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Yeah, I don't think you took off steel charge lol:

 

Just got this off simulacrum no mods.

As you can see, the main damage is 1997 (For some reason the number isn't exact, its been like this for a long time) 

and the bleed tick is 875 (43.75% of 2000 is 875)

 

So what we basically have here is a straight up nerf with no trade offs

Even with absolutely nothing on it shows a positive 3,200.

For some reason it's green, which usually indicates mods are on, so I could possibly be bugged.

http://imgur.com/a/zFr0t

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 minute ago, izzatuw said:

The problem being this is an ultimate. Not his first, not his 2nd, not even his 3rd.

 

Sure I can deal a butt load of damage but in a primarily co-op game you'd be lucky if you could actually rack up as many BS kills as you'd want before someone else takes those marks from you.

Here's the thing. 

 

let's compare other frames. Ash's ult deals tons of damage, cool. Frost's Ult deals damage and permanently removes armor from affected enemies. Rhino Stomp deals damage and has CC. 

 

 

At this point Molecular Prime and Bladestorm are almost the same except one you have to let the enemies live, with the other you can actively kill the enemies while the ability's in use.

slash procs. Regardless this doesn't change a thing i've said. and i don't see the point of explaining why the changes did some good to people who've decided how they feel already.

[Dragazer]

4 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

Even with absolutely nothing on it shows a positive 3,200.

For some reason it's green, which usually indicates mods are on, so I could possibly be bugged.

http://imgur.com/a/zFr0t

Most likely bugged on your part, have you tried it mid mission?

The abilties screen does in fact take steel charge into account now, so it might just be something bugged in simulacrum. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by Dragazer

[izzatuw]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

slash procs. Regardless this doesn't change a thing i've said. and i don't see the point of explaining why the changes did some good to people who've decided how they feel already.

You're just proving my point. Ash's Ult only brings pure damage, no matter how good it is the trade off is too much. You have to activate your ult, move your reticule left and right than activate your ult whilst deliberately leaving those targets alive. 

[izzatuw]

1 minute ago, Mints said:

That's probably because you're bad at the game and are desperate to find any excuse to disengage from this discussion without losing face. Have fun when your favorite broken toys get nerfed again and you come back to these forums to cry impotently about it. You're an embarrassment to the community as a whole.

Except arguably old Ash brought aggro loss with invis and melee teleport and a useful Ult. Old Ash had invis and teleport, don't pretend they didn't exist before this.

[GreyEnneract]

1 minute ago, Dragazer said:

Most likely bugged on your part, have you tried it mid mission?

Yep. My bleed ticks are at 1050 each as well.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 minute ago, izzatuw said:

You're just proving my point. Ash's Ult only brings pure damage, no matter how good it is the trade off is too much. You have to activate your ult, move your reticule left and right than activate your ult whilst deliberately leaving those targets alive. 

well. that would be a problem if ash was ever designed for anything else. but he's not. and expecting a fundimental change to the base design of a warframe is just asking to be let down. re works don't change the WF's design. nor are they obligated buffs.

[GreyEnneract]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

re works don't change the WF's design. 

Other than Ember's case.

[izzatuw]

2 minutes ago, Mints said:

He's obviously not here to listen to reason or be told how the new Ash can be made to work well. That post is nothing but an attempt to dismiss opinions that conflict with his own and he will spend the rest of the thread spewing the same nonsense over and over again while denying every opposing viewpoint.

Don't pretend like they even had a purpose when you could dive bomb into a group of enemies and press 4.

Except now there's a problem. Ash's Ult was one of his main purposes. Now it arguably doesn't have a purpose. 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 minute ago, GreyEnneract said:

Other than Ember's case.

wasn't around then im pretty sure. care to explain what they did in detail?

[izzatuw]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

well. that would be a problem if ash was ever designed for anything else. but he's not. and expecting a fundimental change to the base design of a warframe is just asking to be let down. re works don't change the WF's design. nor are they obligated buffs.

Excal? Exalted Blade certainly was not here when he first got released.

[GreyEnneract]

Just now, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

wasn't around then im pretty sure. care to explain what they did in detail?

She had a skill called Overheat which basically made her a tank, it has since been removed obviously.

After that she was reworked at least two more times that I can remember, but her base theme (damage mage) stayed the same after removing Overheat.

[Irorone]

1 minute ago, GreyEnneract said:

25 minutes ago, Irorone said:

Compared to pre-rework bladestorm no, pre rework bladestorm could hit the same target a LOT more than three times and only costed 25 en period you now have to spend a bit of energy to attack the same target five times and that's two casts because mark stacking caps at three if I remember.  Multi target generally everything already dead to something else in my party by the time I've popped bladestorm.

When you're constantly hitting the same enemy, the slash procs become pointless. While the only enemy I've had to mark 5 times has been a Lv140 Napalm (145% Power Str).  Though if you just want to kill one enemy, use Teleport. It has always been a better alternative. 

Except they're generally dead before I can pop said massive bladestorm so the marking cost difference becomes moot in that regard.  Also you can only hit marked targets within a certain range of yourself meaning just marking them isn't quite as simple as before anyway.  Pre rework with zenurik you could virtually perma bladestorm as long as you didn't get stuck on an en drain eximus.

The range is 50m, and isn't locked to the tile like the old Bladestorm. Marking is literally just spinning in a circle, which is why I think DE failed here in making it truly more interactive. As for Zenurik, you can still permanently Bladestorm. It's Zenurik after all.

Actually the bleed procs still stacked pre rework just most enemies were dead before it would really matter.

Before the change there was only one Bleed proc per enemy, hitting the enemy multiple times just refreshed the proc each time. The new Bladestorm initiates one proc per mark, meaning 3 total procs at once at the max number of marks.

Except that you STILL can't damage enemies an ash is in the process of stabbing which was the only real logistical downside in group play.

I didn't mind the cutscene, DE's trying to move away from it because it translates to more development work down the road in the form of stabbing animations.

They already moved away from it with the first iteration being similar to WoF, then to the iteration where it would be the same as it is now just with you sending out your clones only instead of yourself. Now it's at the current (3rd known) iteration.

Because quoting is a funnily formatted thing in this forum.

That comment was about the lethality difference in an energy cost sense.  Single target costs more energy than before.  Multiple target EXPONENTIALLY more so.  Fatal Teleport has been pretty much the new bladestorm anyways (and actually was better than bladestorm due to covert lethality).

Except you actually can't perma bladestorm anymore cuz you have to mark ALL the targets first, meaning at the very least more keystrokes to get back into invuln frames.

Range is moddable past 50m now but that's the range how far a mark can be when activating bladestorm and actually being able to hit it with that cast.

Which even so would still make bladestorm hilariously useless, single target weapons can stack more and more damaging bleed procs and multi target there's been even stronger options for DoT.

I don't remember bladestorm EVER being like WoF so unless that was before roughly the end of closed beta, but anyways

Finally it's still a nerf, the damage may have gone up but not enough to justify downgrades in cost, cast times, and LoS restrictions from marking.

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Just now, izzatuw said:

Excal? Exalted Blade certainly was not here when he first got released.

exalted blade didn't change his base design.  DE always saw him as a swordsman that had a little of everything. his rework made that even more true.

[izzatuw]

4 minutes ago, Mints said:

No, you just can't find a purpose for Ash unless he's a one trick pony. I've already explained how you can make the most of Ash several posts ago. In fact I did it twice. The first time you completely ignored it and the second time you deflected it with a snarky condescending post. Ash's rework isn't Ash's problem. You being bad at Ash is Ash's problem.

And I assume I've played a game as Ash with you? Yeap I thought so. Haven't.

 

*facepalm again*

 

Let me reiterate. I don't dislike his rework as a whole, only his ultimate. His 2nd and 3rd really only got QOL changes but they were very much welcome.

 

Edit: Your arguments have mostly been about how "I'm a bad player" more than anything else really.

Edited December 5, 2016 by izzatuw

[Irorone]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

exalted blade didn't change his base design.  DE always saw him as a swordsman that had a little of everything. his rework made that even more true.

Yeah EB was for the sake of theme change, and for a while was significantly more powerful than Radial Javelin, the gap has lessened as of late.

[SeaUrchins]

If you need to manually target each enemy, you can take a weapon and shoot them already. I hoped they'd rework his ult, but they just merely removed auto targeting, same old boring movie of Ash jumping on enemies, except that you get to choose NPCs for the cinematic. Pfft.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

2 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

She had a skill called Overheat which basically made her a tank, it has since been removed obviously.

After that she was reworked at least two more times that I can remember, but her base theme (damage mage) stayed the same after removing Overheat.

if she was invisioned to be some kind of mage and thats been retained it's proving my point. abilites can be added or removed so long as the idea/fantasy of the frame stays consistent. and from where im sitting it seems all reworks have done that.

[izzatuw]

1 minute ago, SeaUrchins said:

If you need to manually target each enemy, you can take a weapon and shoot them already. I hoped they'd rework his ult, but they just merely removed auto targeting, same old boring movie of Ash jumping on enemies, except that you get to choose NPCs for the cinematic. Pfft.

This is my entire point. You deliberately leave a crowd of enemies alive to kill them a few seconds later.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 minute ago, Irorone said:

Yeah EB was for the sake of theme change, and for a while was significantly more powerful than Radial Javelin, the gap has lessened as of late.

nope. he was a swordsman before and after the rework. the changes just show the theme better.