Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[LycanPT]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

[...]I barely even used Bladestorm before the update. Now I actually have a use for it.

You might not like how the power is now. I can live with that, it's an opinion. But it cannot go back to the pre-update ability. It was broken, and overpowered. If you want something better DE is pretty open to implementing good suggestions. You should offer up some ideas for improvement that will balance it out.

You think you're smart? Lmao, how can you use bladestorm now and not before if the former was more energy efficient, was faster and dealt more damage? I see you are one of those Ash inconditional haters, I'll see your whine when your cheese frame gets nerfed into oblivion

Edited December 13, 2016 by LycanPT

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Hi my fellow Tenno,

My favourite frame is Loki, but I main Ash (prime, specifically). I mean of all the frames I have I rather take him to a survival or defense than a Frost, Rhino, Valkyr, etc. He has a tanky build and I could clean an entire field with his 4th. While Frost provided defense, nova better dmg, I provided offense trough his 4th. But now after TWW he doesn't have that capability anymore, or so I've noticed. He kills 3-4 enemies at most and then the ability ceases. Also, stronger enemies like the top sortie eximus aren't continuously stabbed, I think. I tries once, and then give up on killing them, this if such enemies are isolated. I could kill the Behemoth Juggernaut with the help of Ash's 4th, and now I fear it's mostly useless compared to pre-TWW.

Has anyone noticed this? Am I overlooking something? I fear the whole "Ash Revisited", Koga Skin and the such took a part in this, but I haven't seen any update notes on this possible nerf.

Thanks to one and all.

[Achromatic.]

48 minutes ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

If you want something better DE is pretty open to implementing good suggestions. You should offer up some ideas for improvement that will balance it out.

Considering we're on page 78 of this thread with nary a peep from DE, I'm going to have to say I disagree.

[Nazrethim]

35 minutes ago, LycanPT said:

You think you're smart? Lmao, how can you use bladestorm now and not before if the former was more energy efficient, was faster and dealt more damage? I see you are one of those Ash inconditional haters, I'll see your whine when your cheese frame gets nerfed into oblivion

It was also stupidly mindless, boring after the 5th cast and usually got you stuck on the same dude inmune to it for half an hour. What DE eliminated was the cheese on it. And made Smoke Screen a relevant ability to make up for it, and it did. Now if we can convince them to make Rising Storm augment good..

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Sesom089 said:

^ I agree with the gentleman/lady here.  Beat out a simulor/mirage in dps in survival sortie a few days back, and I genuinely enjoy playing my Ash now.  The QOL to smokescreen was amazing; just wish the added a 5 sec blind effect to enemies affected by the stagger, y'know smoke in your eyes from the bomb and what not.  Back on topic though, I don't consider the rework a nerf.  You just have to think outside the box and use more of his kit, and an augment or two, to put out that sweet-sweet-dps.

While I like his rework, it's definitely a nerf in the sense that it's not brain dead powerful as it was before. I've gotten quite good with it (did awesome in two sortie missions again today) but still recognize that I can't delete a room of 18 enemies anymore. With old Ash I was getting top kills while playing on a laptop giving me 5fps (no exaggeration, probably even less). I was away and simply logging in to collect rewards and do a few sorties here and there's. Several times I would get top kills by just mashng 4 while pointing in the general direction of the stop motion enemies. He was definitely broken and mindless before.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

27 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

While I like his rework, it's definitely a nerf in the sense that it's not brain dead powerful as it was before. I've gotten quite good with it (did awesome in two sortie missions again today) but still recognize that I can't delete a room of 18 enemies anymore. With old Ash I was getting top kills while playing on a laptop giving me 5fps (no exaggeration, probably even less). I was away and simply logging in to collect rewards and do a few sorties here and there's. Several times I would get top kills by just mashng 4 while pointing in the general direction of the stop motion enemies. He was definitely broken and mindless before.

Its still mindless, still has the cut scene that during enemies are still immune to other damages types. Painting enemies 2,3 times with your rectical is pointless and doesnt involve "skill" you keep talking about.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

58 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

It was also stupidly mindless, boring after the 5th cast and usually got you stuck on the same dude inmune to it for half an hour. What DE eliminated was the cheese on it.

Its still mindless and stupid and still just as cheesy, DE just added and condition to trigger it "BS". Example: Someone has already figured out that swinging your sword or melee blindly will mark the enemies within range while mark mode is active.

Edited December 13, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

If Ashs 4 put out the same amount of damage that his 3 does, 1 mark per enemy ( not the multiple marks most of the time required)  and the cut scene was gone and enemies could be damaged during ash clones BS, and mark mode was duration based with a enemy cap and made him invisible,  then it would be fine with me and everyone else im sure.

Edited December 13, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Sev1107]

7 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

If Ashs 4 put out the same amount of damage that his 3 does, 1 mark per enemy ( not the multiple marks most of the time required)  and the cut scene was gone and enemies could be damaged during ash clones BS, and mark mode was duration based with a enemy cap and made him invisible,  then it would be fine with me and everyone else im sure.

Except that would make him even more broken than before TWW and defeating the purpose of his 3 which is meant as a single target heavy damage ability.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

23 minutes ago, Sev1107 said:

Except that would make him even more broken than before TWW and defeating the purpose of his 3 which is meant as a single target heavy damage ability.

No because there would be a cap on enemies marked. It would synergies great with his 2, so if have 20 sec of smoke screen, thats how long u have to mark a set number of enemies for death while mark mode is active. It would be affected by duration and range. More importantly his 3 and 4 must have the same amout of damage out put..no more marking enemies 2, 3 times.

Edited December 13, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

38 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

If Ashs 4 put out the same amount of damage that his 3 does, 1 mark per enemy ( not the multiple marks most of the time required)  and the cut scene was gone and enemies could be damaged during ash clones BS, and mark mode was duration based with a enemy cap and made him invisible,  then it would be fine with me and everyone else im sure.

 

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

Its still mindless, still has the cut scene that during enemies are still immune to other damages types. Painting enemies 2,3 times with your rectical is pointless and doesnt involve "skill" you keep talking about.

Well, for sluggish players that may be the case, for me, I cast smoke screen then mark during one bulletjump>roll sequence. And I can mark up to 20 targets with a single sweep if they are more or less on the same area, about 10 enemies if they are spread. It does have room for skill than just "look in the general direction and obliterate everything except that disruptor/kuva siphon you are now stuck into for 30s"

The cutscene is arguably fast and opens for cool stuff (like Survival Fissure relic swap with badass execution) and just looks much better. Seems that DE fixed some camera angles.

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

If Ashs 4 put out the same amount of damage that his 3 does,

Males Teleport pointless.

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

1 mark per enemy ( not the multiple marks most of the time required)

 

Right now you can singlemark.

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

and the cut scene was gone and enemies could be damaged during ash clones BS

World on Bladestorm is a boring no-no. Ash is the killer, not some white manequins that pretend to be ash.

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

, and mark mode was duration based with a enemy cap and made him invisible,

Making Smoke Screen pointless too. And the enemy cap murdering the crowd clear potential. Like when you face Lech Krill Sortie and 100 dudes show up out of nowhere.

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

 then it would be fine with me and everyone else im sure.

Everyone lazy you mean.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Males Teleport pointless

How if there is a enemy cap.

Whats the point of his utl then?

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Right now you can singlemark.

Yes but cant kill anything over lvl 80 especially without combo duration mods

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Making Smoke Screen pointless too

No his 2 is a stun, and its max duration is too short. 

 

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Everyone lazy you mean.

Your opinion, but I do know if you were playing with me and if  I went with a speed nova or a mag or a sayrn or a ember or a frost or rhino or valkyr (just to name a few) with arcane energize and strike sets you would be just a nuisance to the party with the "new and improved ash", with nothing to contribute. 

Edited December 14, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

World on Bladestorm is a boring no-no

more interesting that what we have currently," mark and go make a samich."

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Well, for sluggish players that may be the case, for me, I cast smoke screen then mark during one bulletjump>roll sequence. And I can mark up to 20 targets with a single sweep if they are more or less on the same area, about 10 enemies if they are spread. It does have room for skill than just "look in the general direction and obliterate everything except that disruptor/kuva siphon you are now stuck into for 30s"

The cutscene is arguably fast and opens for cool stuff (like Survival Fissure relic swap with badass execution) and just looks much better. Seems that DE fixed some camera angles.

Ill let someone else take this one..lol Im done, cheers m8t

Edited December 14, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Nazrethim]

24 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

How if there is a enemy cap.

Because you are confusing mechanics and you haven't think trough your "rework" idea, which is a problem because DE did.

24 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

Whats the point of his utl then?

To clear groups of enemies with lethal force in a situation when Teleport spam would be too slow.

24 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

Yes but cant kill anything over lvl 80 especially without combo duration mods

It can instakill anything up to lvl 100 with a decent combo counter. Also, Ash is a melee oriented frame, you are supposed to be using a properly modded melee with him.

24 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

No his 2 is a stun, and its max duration is too short. 

His 2 is an escape tool composed of a short radius stun and invisibility. Duration could use a 8>>12s buff though.

24 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

Your opinion, but I do know if you were playing with me and if  I went with a speed nova or a mag or a sayrn or a ember or a frost or rhino or valkyr (just to name a few) with arcane energize and strike sets you would be just a nuisance to the party with the "new and improved ash", with nothing to contribute. 

Well, Saryn needs a setup, same can be said for Mag, Frost is as sluggish compared to Ash, Rhino is full on charge frame and doesn't have Ash's killing potential, Valkyr is inmortal but has no way of clearing crowds the way Ash can, Ember falls off pretty quickly on high level while Ash just keeps killing and Nova is Nova, she actually contributes to Ash by making onemarked enemies die instantly then pop nearby dudes, saving energy. Also, nothing to contribute? Smoke Shadow cloaking, large amounts of damage, a reliable and durable frame that can carry tasks where less mobile or squishy frames would die, armor strip heavy units with Shuriken. Ash brings a lot to the table for those that know how to use him, which aren't precisely the same that bladespammed their way trough everything pre-rework

28 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

more interesting that what we have currently," mark and go make a samich."

 That only happens if you mark above 20 targets and have no attack speed mod on your melee, otherwise the animation is over pretty quickly.

[(PSN)HELLHOUND_ROCKO]

20 hours ago, (Xbox One)Oussii said:

ASH:

Before the rework:

#1 #2 #3 useless

#4 Blade storm, Very good

after the rework:

#1 #2 #3 useless

# Blade shower, OP, Perfect

(that's my opinion)

a cloak that staggers everything around the player upon activation - and that now doesn't even stop you or require you to have ground contact anymore = useless?  Covert Lethallity Dagger Fatal Teleport that decently enough energy efficiently instagibs practically every mob type regardless of level or Ancient Healer/ Disruptor buff = useless?? WTF??? 

 

you seem to me like being either some utter Troll or one of those players who have played Ash only because of BS - or both... . Ash is a great frame, the perfect mix of Stealth & EHP & Speed - and the higher in level/ difficulty the enemies rise, the more he offers to a team due to his maximum of instagib dish out potential. you guys thinking that Ash is garbage now just because he cannot nuke masses of mid-level mobs fast anymore are out of your mind and ALL certainly no former endgame of level 150+ oriented players - otherwise you would know that the true value of Ash Prime was never Bladestorm but it having been only an absurd bonus on top of perfection. 

 

so his 4 is sh!t now - outperformed by anything good at any level/ difficulty that counts. so what? he never needed it anyway - outside of being able to fill that Nuker frame spot in mid-level (level 75-150 IMO) fights as well that is. that so many of you people obviously played him only because of that little side-aspect of him doesn't change that. 

 

but yeah - i still think too that it is not ok to now have with Ash a frame without 4 - same as much as i think that it is not ok to have with Rhino a frame without passive (as in both cases it would not make any difference at all if the slotted thing wouldn't even be there at all). i'd rework Bladestorm in giving him the old back but with 50% more strength and duration - just with the "drawback" to not be able to use it more often than once every 100 seconds fix (unchangeable by stats) - it would fix the spam, make it feel like a true Ultimate and make the Cinematic mode actually a welcome change every now and then. 

[(XBOX)Oussii]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)HELLHOUND_ROCKO said:

a cloak that staggers everything around the player upon activation - and that now doesn't even stop you or require you to have ground contact anymore = useless?  Covert Lethallity Dagger Fatal Teleport that decently enough energy efficiently instagibs practically every mob type regardless of level or Ancient Healer/ Disruptor buff = useless?? WTF??? 

 

you seem to me like being either some utter Troll or one of those players who have played Ash only because of BS - or both... . Ash is a great frame, the perfect mix of Stealth & EHP & Speed - and the higher in level/ difficulty the enemies rise, the more he offers to a team due to his maximum of instagib dish out potential. you guys thinking that Ash is garbage now just because he cannot nuke masses of mid-level mobs fast anymore are out of your mind and ALL certainly no former endgame of level 150+ oriented players - otherwise you would know that the true value of Ash Prime was never Bladestorm but it having been only an absurd bonus on top of perfection. 

 

so his 4 is sh!t now - outperformed by anything good at any level/ difficulty that counts. so what? he never needed it anyway - outside of being able to fill that Nuker frame spot in mid-level (level 75-150 IMO) fights as well that is. that so many of you people obviously played him only because of that little side-aspect of him doesn't change that. 

 

but yeah - i still think too that it is not ok to now have with Ash a frame without 4 - same as much as i think that it is not ok to have with Rhino a frame without passive (as in both cases it would not make any difference at all if the slotted thing wouldn't even be there at all). i'd rework Bladestorm in giving him the old back but with 50% more strength and duration - just with the "drawback" to not be able to use it more often than once every 100 seconds fix (unchangeable by stats) - it would fix the spam, make it feel like a true Ultimate and make the Cinematic mode actually a welcome change every now and then. 

First you don't know what my play style is nor what frames i use, so you have no right to judge me

Second: i was simply commenting on the fact that BS (blade shower) has become more stronger even without the use of any of the other powers.

Third: if you are relying on fatal teleport or smoke screen to make Ash lethal then i respect your style, but it's not my style, and at least you should respect mine.

Fourth: you don't know my built, so don't talk to me about cover lethality and others

Fifth: when you reach my MR or the hours i played then maybe, and i said Maybe you would understand how to really play Ash or you will have the right to criticism me

Best regards

 

[(PSN)supersocc11]

So I find ash to be my top damage Frame and also the highest survivability. On level 60+ missions I get the most kills and don't die (anything below that it's hard to beat frames like Excalibur when the enemies are weak). I Don't say that to brag because i know no one cares, but ash is great fun to use and in higher level missions is the BEST killer. 

Disclaimer! I have maxed arcane trickery in both helmet and syandana..also a maxed zenurik energy overflow. Maybe that's the only reason I'm having fun with ash....

Edited December 14, 2016 by (PS4)supersocc11

[CursedNephilim]

Okay guys so i haven't said anything but here is my feedback to the ash rework.
You guys did a great job with him and i love how we have to actually play the game now. being able to mark countless enemies and not only just a specific area even the whole map if it has to be, it is epicness!!
as for additions to this dont you think it would be easier for players to know how many they have targeted/marked to kill rather than not know how many have been marked? i myself have encountered rather embarrassing moments while playing with a few of my friends when i activate my ability and a few seconds later i press it again to kill and then he just turns it off and nothing to kill. ._. yep... 

so i think it would help us tenno reduce those embarrassing moments with a mark counter on ash bladestorm. Thumbs up and quote me if you agree on this

[(XBOX)Oussii]

6 minutes ago, CursedNephilim said:

Okay guys so i haven't said anything but here is my feedback to the ash rework.
You guys did a great job with him and i love how we have to actually play the game now. being able to mark countless enemies and not only just a specific area even the whole map if it has to be, it is epicness!!
as for additions to this dont you think it would be easier for players to know how many they have targeted/marked to kill rather than not know how many have been marked? i myself have encountered rather embarrassing moments while playing with a few of my friends when i activate my ability and a few seconds later i press it again to kill and then he just turns it off and nothing to kill. ._. yep... 

so i think it would help us tenno reduce those embarrassing moments with a mark counter on ash bladestorm. Thumbs up and quote me if you agree on this

I agree

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

11 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

Yes but cant kill anything over lvl 80 especially without combo duration mods

I kill enemies just fine over 80 with a single mark. The only exceptions are usually certain eximus units that need additional marks.

You should try out different builds. You might find one that works out well for you. Also, be sure to take a look at your melee weapon, since Bladestorm is affected by certain mod stats. 

Another useful tip to keep in mind is that the damage from Bladestorm doesn't stop at the 2000 base finisher damage it does on strike. It also has a guaranteed bleed proc, so if you don't insist on killing the target right now just to show your 'leet deeps' on the Mission Synopsis screen then you actually get 6900 base finisher damage per target. You can move on and take out other targets in the mean time or Teleport to finish the priority targets like Heavy Gunners and Ancients while everyone else bleeds to death. I think part of the "kill it now!" mentality is that bladestorm builds destroyed his smokescreen. Now he can stay invisible and easily outlast the bleed duration on enemies.

The lack of patience is a big reason that so many people have issues with it. Same reason many didn't like the rework of Saryn when she lost her p4tw. And her damage is amazing in end game now, it just requires people to stop expecting to be lazy in a fast paced game. 

Edited December 14, 2016 by (PS4)Riko_113

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I kill enemies just fine over 80 with a single mark. The only exceptions are usually certain eximus units that need additional marks.

You should try out different builds. You might find one that works out well for you. Also, be sure to take a look at your melee weapon, since Bladestorm is affected by certain mod stats. 

Another useful tip to keep in mind is that the damage from Bladestorm doesn't stop at the 2000 base finisher damage it does on strike. It also has a guaranteed bleed proc, so if you don't insist on killing the target right now just to show your 'leet deeps' on the Mission Synopsis screen then you actually get 6900 base finisher damage per target. You can move on and take out other targets in the mean time or Teleport to finish the priority targets like Heavy Gunners and Ancients while everyone else bleeds to death. I think part of the "kill it now!" mentality is that bladestorm builds destroyed his smokescreen. Now he can stay invisible and easily outlast the bleed duration on enemies.

The lack of patience is a big reason that so many people have issues with it. Same reason many didn't like the rework of Saryn when she lost her p4tw. And her damage is amazing in end game now, it just requires people to stop expecting to be lazy in a fast paced game. 

 

Dude, I have tried many builds, hes a lost warframe in my opinion. He used to be my goto, his old BS was my (oh sh button ) as i could do a full BS in 2 sec with one exception. Now his 4 is way to slow for my gameplay type, and the squads that i play in. I cannot get passed the (mark mode) its turned into, no other frame do have to mark for a AOE effect. If it were a single player game or i was a solo player i could understand. Also there are just to many AOE weapons that straight out pace the new BS. (one example: telos boltace)..and with the new rivens coming to secondary and melees; ashs 4 "mark mode" will be even more useless and obsolete than it is now. Weapons should not out pace Warframe abilities and im afraid we are getting closer to that reality, but thats a story for different thread. 

Edited December 14, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[DaMasque]

After playing him for a good hour, adding a forma and such, I come to a conclusion, he is not finished or unfinished. 

What do I mean? Today in a interception mission, I use Blade Storm to clear the enemies on a point, upon finishing all the marked enemies, I found myself surrounded by more enemies. Quickly used Smoke Screen and and continued this onslaught of Blade Storm. Again, found myself surrounded. I can only assume this is the nature of what a interception mission is, constant hordes of enemies, and to this logic, I find Ash to be incomplete or lack in better terms, inefficient. Trapped in a loop where you have to sit through this animation again and again and again. It's boring, tedious, annoying, and frustrating.

Outside of just pressing 4, Shuriken, always fun to throw sharp things that causes bleeding effects. Smoke Screen, when you just don't want to be seen, now you can do it in mid-air. And teleport, a way to get around and or take out those high priority target. These 3 skills are fine, they do what they do.

I see no reason to ever use Ash's 4th ability in a horde game mode, 10% of it is jerking the mouse around (which gave me headaches), 40% watching the animation, 20%  maybe some actually gameplay, and the remaining 30% repeating what I did for the first 50%. Did this make sense? No? My extract reaction when I'm using Blade Storm. 

TL;DR: Blade Storm not only kills your enemies but also your gaming experience.

Edited December 14, 2016 by DaMasque

[Tengu_Bruxo]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I kill enemies just fine over 80 with a single mark. The only exceptions are usually certain eximus units that need additional marks.

You should try out different builds. You might find one that works out well for you. Also, be sure to take a look at your melee weapon, since Bladestorm is affected by certain mod stats. 

Another useful tip to keep in mind is that the damage from Bladestorm doesn't stop at the 2000 base finisher damage it does on strike. It also has a guaranteed bleed proc, so if you don't insist on killing the target right now just to show your 'leet deeps' on the Mission Synopsis screen then you actually get 6900 base finisher damage per target. You can move on and take out other targets in the mean time or Teleport to finish the priority targets like Heavy Gunners and Ancients while everyone else bleeds to death. I think part of the "kill it now!" mentality is that bladestorm builds destroyed his smokescreen. Now he can stay invisible and easily outlast the bleed duration on enemies.

The lack of patience is a big reason that so many people have issues with it. Same reason many didn't like the rework of Saryn when she lost her p4tw. And her damage is amazing in end game now, it just requires people to stop expecting to be lazy in a fast paced game. 

 This is a great assessment of the new Ash Rework