Can we please nerf Mirage + Simulor?

[Omnimorph]

Both the Tonkor and Synoid Simulor need to be nerfed hard, they've been absurdly OP AoE weapons for nearly a @(*()$ year now, come on DE get your S#&$ together.

[achromos]

5 hours ago, Fast_98 said:

Enemies can easy stagger out of range and ground pound/shoot you  before you do anything. Enemies can shoot you from far and destroy you if they come to close (can't make a vortex in time). In high levels yo'ur not fighting one heavy at a time and the second 2 or more come the synoid simulor is practically useless. This thing is a choke/defenses weapon that it. 

How the  is self damage going to work when you're firing range is less then the vortex range? 

Edit: All self damage weapons are ammo efficient my penta has 30 rounds and it easy to refill.

        It radius is it selling point as the regular version does more damage but sucks in range and that why the regular version is  considered fodder. Plus firestorm doesn't increase the range. The max the range could be nerfed  by 25% or make it so that it can't chip through walls.

This things need firerate or it can't pump out any damage at all. It has a timer on it while guns like the zarr and penta do damge in contact and can kill that level 100 gunner and everything around it 2-3 shots.

 

lol the Zarr?  So you are piting a weapon that can kill you vs a weapon that can't and does the same dmg or more?

[Fast_98]

10 minutes ago, achromos said:

lol the Zarr?  So you are piting a weapon that can kill you vs a weapon that can't and does the same dmg or more?

The zarr has different fire modes... maybe I'm too cautious but rarly blow myself up when I use it (personally has became my favourite weapon). Plus have used the zarr against a level 100 bombard? I can kill one in 4-5 shots while the synoid simulor takes 15-20 seconds to kill one so I'll say it fair comparison.

However you are right if you pointed out the penta don't know why I put that things name up.

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Fast_98

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

1 minute ago, Fast_98 said:

The zarr has different fire modes... maybe I'm too cautious but rarly blow myself up when I use it (personally has became my favourite weapon). Plus have used the zarr against a level 100 bombard? I can kill one in 4-5 shots while the synoid simulor takes 15-20 seconds to kill one so I'll say it fair comparison.

 

is the syn a corrosive mag setup? 

[Fast_98]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)EternalDrk Mako said:

is the syn a corrosive mag setup? 

Yeah corrosive crit simulor with no player buffs.

Pretty much the entire time I was just pushing the bombard around until it died.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Fast_98

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

pretty much,l its big damage seems to go with mirages hall augment 

overal i think its just the fact it does an AOE dmg x3 stack on mirage

but hey use turbulance on it and it gets some distance aoe ..

[Dizzle22]

5 hours ago, Roachester said:

So has anyone actually come up with a good reason as to why the HoM/Simulor combo shouldn't get the hammer?

Well, thus far the most compelling augments in the thread have been:

1. "I don't really want to play the game, and this helps me get the loot faster"

2. Varying degrees of generic "nerfs are bad, m'kay" with bonus points for ad hominems and/or e-posturing

 

So.... NO 

[(PSN)Coyote_x_Starrk]

51 minutes ago, Dizzle22 said:

Well, thus far the most compelling augments in the thread have been:

1. "I don't really want to play the game, and this helps me get the loot faster"

2. Varying degrees of generic "nerfs are bad, m'kay" with bonus points for ad hominems and/or e-posturing

 

So.... NO 

This ^^^

[Doc-Orange]

1 hour ago, Dizzle22 said:

Well, thus far the most compelling augments in the thread have been:

1. "I don't really want to play the game, and this helps me get the loot faster"

2. Varying degrees of generic "nerfs are bad, m'kay" with bonus points for ad hominems and/or e-posturing

 

So.... NO 

I don't want a nerf because I want to play the game as intended and Simulor and Mirage are officially part of the game. So don't tell me how I have to play the game. It's your free will to leave a squad with Simulor.

In general - Irony doesn't make arguments more true or better.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Doc-Orange

[Midas]

Well if you nerf mirage you need to raise her health stats. But I like her where she is. I feel that the weapon(s) is/are the case here. My Zarr has a unique Riven mod that makes it stronger and does about a good 7k corrosive with it attached, however that is because it's disposition is neutral.

[Magneu]

2 hours ago, Doc-Orange said:

I don't want a nerf because I want to play the game as intended and Simulor and Mirage are officially part of the game. So don't tell me how I have to play the game. It's your free will to leave a squad with Simulor.

In general - Irony doesn't make arguments more true or better.

Sooo you're saying that game developers are completely infallible and can't make mistakes with content that they produce? There is no such thing as unintended synergies? Ever?

If DE decided to put a piece of gear that instantly won the mission, that would be fair and balanced, and nobody could get mad when a public players used it?

If people are having to play around a combo/piece of gear, that combo/piece of gear is the problem, and as such should be changed.

[-CCC-Secret]

4 hours ago, Omnimorph said:

Both the Tonkor and Synoid Simulor need to be nerfed hard, they've been absurdly OP AoE weapons for nearly a @(*()$ year now, come on DE get your S#&$ together.

They already have been nerfed. Both wont be able to clear Heavy 100s as easily as before. Hek, you can probably kill heavies much faster one by one than using a Tonkor/S. Simulor.

Mirage was also slightly nerfed.

There are much better combos out there that kill 100s much faster than Mirage + S. Simulor can.

As for in regular missions, most AoE DPS can do as well as Mirage + S. Simulor.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

3 hours ago, Doc-Orange said:

I don't want a nerf because I want to play the game as intended and Simulor and Mirage are officially part of the game. So don't tell me how I have to play the game. It's your free will to leave a squad with Simulor.

In general - Irony doesn't make arguments more true or better.j

Irony?  My Volt with his limitless shield casting and exponential hit-scan damage stacking was right and perfect when he could Crit shot 7-digit numbers through it almost 2 years ago and guess what?  Other players still got to participate as a squad!

And they still balanced the shield for the sake of game integrity.  Because, really, he wasn't perfect.

I'm sorry but saying it's the way Mirage Spamulor is "supposed to be" when it clearly creates toxic, negative fallout that totally violates the spirit of the game for the sake of mechanical meta-efficiency, ego at the expense of interactive enjoyment, and a lazy "one button 4 win!" mentality doesn't carry any weight IMHO.

That is not DE's intent.

As I said before, I just laugh at it.  BUT I DO LAUGH AT IT.

I see players being justified in asking for the menu option to eliminate certain frames from the squad creation process.

Kill the squad dynamic once or twice, and leaving is fine.  But having to deal with it more than that becomes a bigger issue...which it has become.

Edited December 7, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[ThunderZsolt]

On 2016. 12. 06. at 5:33 AM, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I'm betting an additional small "nerf"/balance like a charge mechanic change still keeps it top tier; it just becomes properly balanced.

In other words, you'd still use it.

no. everybody would use the next OP weapon, which does slightly less dmg, but doesn't have those gimmicks. Or DE goes ahead, and releases a new, even more OP weapon (level simulor prime)

23 hours ago, secret9005 said:

Hush, my child. Let them not discover how well that weapon goes with Mirage.

I already use Amprex with her. Or the Atomos (which is basically a mini-amprex)

20 hours ago, ---Mr.Meow--- said:

3 of the most spaming thing in the game by players in 1(not only with mirage). C'mon it's realy so cool to spam 1 button to win?

When I had an injury, I could only use my right hand, so I wrote some macroes for both my keyboard and mouse. In the end, I could complete sorties with only 1 hand. And yes, having a weapon that can handle everything made programming a lot easier 

17 hours ago, Roachester said:

So has anyone actually come up with a good reason as to why the HoM/Simulor combo shouldn't get the hammer?

Yes. It wouldn't change anything besides players switching loadouts to mirage+any AoE weapon without self damage, or telos boltace or whatever. Those players who used simulor+mirage would be upset about rendering their xForma weapon "useless" (according to them), and the poeple like the OP of this thread would write posts about the next "meta" loadouts.

However, I can come up with a good reason for nerfing the simulor too: the next OP weapon wouldn't have those annoying vortexes everywhere and that horrible sound. (like 99% of the simulor users don't even know that they can detonate the vortexes manually - the sound doesn't bother me, because I'm listening to music while playing warframe)

[Omnimorph]

8 hours ago, secret9005 said:

They already have been nerfed. Both wont be able to clear Heavy 100s as easily as before. Hek, you can probably kill heavies much faster one by one than using a Tonkor/S. Simulor.

Mirage was also slightly nerfed.

There are much better combos out there that kill 100s much faster than Mirage + S. Simulor can.

As for in regular missions, most AoE DPS can do as well as Mirage + S. Simulor.

I don't have a problem with Mirage being a DPS frame, that's what she's supposed to be.  It's the weapons themselves.  On paper there are plenty of other weapons and combos that ought to be as good, but the problem is there aren't because those two weapons are ridiculously easy to use to get disproportionately high numbers.

Put it this way, in a trope: at the end of missions, I expect to see some discrepancy, and some toons/weapons consistently going orange.  That's fine, that's not a problem.  The problems are a) ridiculous ease of use to get b) disproportionately high numbers. 

All things being equal (i.e. holding skill level constant) I don't expect to see 60-80% with one character, and others getting like 5% or 12%, I expect it to be more proportionate - i.e. consistent advantages to particular DPS frames/top tier weapons, but within only a few percentage points.

[ChuckMaverick]

7 minutes ago, Omnimorph said:

I don't have a problem with Mirage being a DPS frame, that's what she's supposed to be.  It's the weapons themselves.  On paper there are plenty of other weapons and combos that ought to be as good, but the problem is there aren't because those two weapons are ridiculously easy to use to get disproportionately high numbers.

Put it this way, in a trope: at the end of missions, I expect to see some discrepancy, and some toons/weapons consistently going orange.  That's fine, that's not a problem.  The problems are a) ridiculous ease of use to get b) disproportionately high numbers. 

All things being equal (i.e. holding skill level constant) I don't expect to see 60-80% with one character, and others getting like 5% or 12%, I expect it to be more proportionate - i.e. consistent advantages to particular DPS frames/top tier weapons, but within only a few percentage points.

Leaving Mirage/Simulor aside, as that has a unique synergy that makes the combination really powerful, any potato'd and multi-forma'd AoE weapon is going to obliterate regular starchart mobs, that's just the nature of AoE weapons and the fact that they've been invested in to be able to take on much tougher enemies in sorties/raids/endless missions.

[(PSN)TheANSER-42]

17 hours ago, silkygoodness said:

Not to mention it does magnetic damage, which starts to bite you in the a** the higher level you go. It's just how it interacts with mirage.

I'd say just don't allow her clones to shoot the Simulor at all. Just make it not work. It sucks, and people will be pissed, but the gun is mastery rank twelve, the highest in the game so far. It has to remain good to justify the farming, platinum and/or time investment to get it. The gun sits at a delicate balance between being as good as it is, and one of the worst guns in game.

If you want to make the gun a little more skill based, then put all the damage into detenting the orbs instead. But that will make an already slow weapon even slower on everyone except mirage, who is your real problem.

Galatine prime and Tigris prime are 13. also, what about tonk or? that's op. you just hit one enemy in a hoard and gg. also making a specific weapon straight up not work with an ability is just stupid. that isn't fixing the problem. 

[(PSN)TheANSER-42]

11 hours ago, Magneu said:

Sooo you're saying that game developers are completely infallible and can't make mistakes with content that they produce? There is no such thing as unintended synergies? Ever?

If DE decided to put a piece of gear that instantly won the mission, that would be fair and balanced, and nobody could get mad when a public players used it?

If people are having to play around a combo/piece of gear, that combo/piece of gear is the problem, and as such should be changed.

So tonk or with zephyr should be taken out. all critical weapons and banshee should be taken out. tonkor should be taken out. ash's lethal teleprompter and covert lethality should be taken out. mag and Lanka should be taken out. Saryn and torrid should be taken out.

Edited December 7, 2016 by (PS4)TheANSER-42

[(PSN)TheANSER-42]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Irony?  My Volt with his limitless shield casting and exponential hit-scan damage stacking was right and perfect when he could Crit shot 7-digit numbers through it almost 2 years ago and guess what?  Other players still got to participate as a squad!

And they still balanced the shield for the sake of game integrity.  Because, really, he wasn't perfect.

I'm sorry but saying it's the way Mirage Spamulor is "supposed to be" when it clearly creates toxic, negative fallout that totally violates the spirit of the game for the sake of mechanical meta-efficiency, ego at the expense of interactive enjoyment, and a lazy "one button 4 win!" mentality doesn't carry any weight IMHO.

That is not DE's intent.

As I said before, I just laugh at it.  BUT I DO LAUGH AT IT.

I see players being justified in asking for the menu option to eliminate certain frames from the squad creation process.

Kill the squad dynamic once or twice, and leaving is fine.  But having to deal with it more than that becomes a bigger issue...which it has become.

I do agree with many of your points but there's one I just don't get. how are spamulors causing toxicity when it's anti spamulor people who are making the "NERF NERF NERF" threads. I haven't seen in game toxicity for not using simulor but I have certainly seen A LOT of toxicity coming from the opposition.

Edited December 7, 2016 by (PS4)TheANSER-42

[(XBOX)Tyreal2012]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)TheANSER-42 said:

I do agree with many of your points but there's one I just don't get. how are spamulors causing toxicity when it's anti spamulor people who are making the "NERF NERF NERF" threads. I haven't seen in game toxicity for not using simulor but I have certainly seen A LOT of toxicity coming from the opposition.

Sorry couldn't resist

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

3 hours ago, Krumplifej said:

no. everybody would use the next OP weapon, which does slightly less dmg, but doesn't have those gimmicks. Or DE goes ahead, and releases a new, even more OP weapon (level simulor prime)

I already use Amprex with her. Or the Atomos (which is basically a mini-amprex)

When I had an injury, I could only use my right hand, so I wrote some macroes for both my keyboard and mouse. In the end, I could complete sorties with only 1 hand. And yes, having a weapon that can handle everything made programming a lot easier 

Yes. It wouldn't change anything besides players switching loadouts to mirage+any AoE weapon without self damage, or telos boltace or whatever. Those players who used simulor+mirage would be upset about rendering their xForma weapon "useless" (according to them), and the poeple like the OP of this thread would write posts about the next "meta" loadouts.

However, I can come up with a good reason for nerfing the simulor too: the next OP weapon wouldn't have those annoying vortexes everywhere and that horrible sound. (like 99% of the simulor users don't even know that they can detonate the vortexes manually - the sound doesn't bother me, because I'm listening to music while playing warframe)

It's not really a question of wether it should or shouldn't be nerfed.  it's going to be.  Anything that is ever really efficient gets nerfed.  And it would follow DE's current balancing history anyway if it got nerfed.  The actual question should be "how do we rebalance this situation so both the frame and the weapon are still viable?"

Mirage can take anything semi decent and turn it up to 11 because of her clones+ light buff+ augment.  Which you'd think would make her the problem and not the weapon.  But it can easily be argued that the weapon itself is already strong and she just takes it to the next level.  Really neither item is 100% at fault.  Though in this case I think i'd rather the weapon be nerfed over her.  But if it's possible they should just make it so this specific interaction is nerfed.

Best way to do that would either be to make it so her clones orbs can't merge with yours.  Or make it so her clones also consume ammo when firing.  imo anyway.

As for your "reason" I disagree with it.  Leaving a problem alone simply because another will show up is a pretty shoddy argument.  nerfing something shouldn't always be seen as making something bad.  or be seen as a bad thing in general.  Even if DE spends the rest of warframe quashing "op" combos the game will still innevitably become better in a quality perspective.  you're essentially saying that because nothing will change (which isn't even true) it's pointless to try.  Which is just lame.  That's basically saying since we're all going to die one day why bother trying to live longer.  Or do anything with your life.  Sometimes the end result isn't the most important.  it's the journey.  the experience.

[(PSN)TheANSER-42]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Tyreal2012 said:

Sorry couldn't resist

So. much. nerf.

[ChuckMaverick]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)TheANSER-42 said:

So. much. nerf.

Meh, that's nothing, my nephews have a collection of Nerf weapons of a scale that would make most arms dealers jealous! 

[S0V3REiGN]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Tyreal2012 said:

Sorry couldn't resist

That picture reminds me of something. 

*hears "tactical visor activated" on the background*

[(PSN)TheANSER-42]

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Meh, that's nothing, my nephews have a collection of Nerf weapons of a scale that would make most arms dealers jealous! 

I used to play destiny do now all it takes is the word nerf to throw me into a panic attack.