So when is Ivara going to go back into the oven to finish baking?

[Insizer]

I think Ivara is an unfinished product, that it came out of the oven 3/4ths done. She is a nice frame in theory, and good in practice, but she still has glaring issues which many people glance over.

Here are a couple of issues that I think people can agree on. (I have more, but every time I mention them, people get divided on it, so I'll just leave them out):

1. Ivara, the master archer, does not know how to melee with her Artemis Bow active.
2. Artemis Bow's charge system makes zero sense. You charge from a vertical fan to a horizontal fan. A vertical fan lands multiple arrows on a single target, making it decent for doing higher damage on close-medium range single targets. A horizontal fan spreads out, landing shots on multiple enemies, but less arrows per enemy. This makes a horizontal fan great for dealing lower damage on a crowd and makes it great for situations where you are getting swarmed (if you are competent with Ivara you shouldn't get swarmed, but nonetheless the charging mechanics are still bad) as you can hit multiple targets for high damage at close range and do very high damage to targets in melee range. This would mean that a horizontal fan is good for situations where one would fire shots in a panic... but you can't, because you need to first charge it.
   1. Here is what I propose: Make it charge from a horizontal fan to either a vertical fan, or, more favorably, to a narrower spread/clustered shot which would have a bonus of making Artemis Bow good for longer range targets, rather than the close-medium ranges it is most well fit for currently.

I have many other issues, but again, people get divided on them. These ones are ones that I consistently get largely positive feedback from. I by no means am saying Ivara is terrible or bad, frankly, she is my go-to for spy missions (sorry Loki), but these issues are ones that defy reasoning as to why they still exist.

[(PSN)joshw1400]

Well her artemis bow is technically an exalted ability so you wouldn't be able to use anything else just like the others.

[NyxCrab]

I like the idea of meleeing during Artemis Bow but the thing is, Artemis Bow is so strong is makes sense that you can't melee with it out. It's similar to why you can't shoot a gun when you have Wukong's Staff out. Not that I don't think we shouldn't be able to a weak melee attack in Artemis bow for breaking open containers and stuff, but it makes perfect sense as to why she doesn't have one. 

As for her charge mechanic, I honestly don't mind it. Pressing fire once to take out single targets quicker is a lot more fluid than having to hold it down to take out a single enemy. And with even a speed trigger on the weapon you're using for Artemis bow it charges quickly enough that, even while panicking. That being said, having an option to switch the default charge mode on Artemis bow wouldn't be bad, as charging it doesn't increase the damage, just where the arrows go.

[jinxeverything]

9 minutes ago, Insizer said:

Here is what I propose: Make it charge from a horizontal fan to either a vertical fan, or, more favorably, to a narrower spread/clustered shot which would have a bonus of making Artemis Bow good for longer range targets, rather than the close-medium ranges it is most well fit for currently.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have normal attack of AB be a single powerful shot (5 arrows duct taped together) instead of what we have now and the charge attack be firing 5 arrows (each are 1/5 of the normal arrows in term of power) shot in horizontally manner?

The way its right now make no sense to me, guess not a being a big fan of bow made me think this way........ 

[Sintag]

21 minutes ago, NyxCrab said:

I like the idea of meleeing during Artemis Bow but the thing is, Artemis Bow is so strong is makes sense that you can't melee with it out. It's similar to why you can't shoot a gun when you have Wukong's Staff out. Not that I don't think we shouldn't be able to a weak melee attack in Artemis bow for breaking open containers and stuff, but it makes perfect sense as to why she doesn't have one. 

As for her charge mechanic, I honestly don't mind it. Pressing fire once to take out single targets quicker is a lot more fluid than having to hold it down to take out a single enemy. And with even a speed trigger on the weapon you're using for Artemis bow it charges quickly enough that, even while panicking. That being said, having an option to switch the default charge mode on Artemis bow wouldn't be bad, as charging it doesn't increase the damage, just where the arrows go.

Maybe AB should use a Secondary Fire to swap between charging a vertical fan or charging a horizontal fan. I dunno.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

These aren't even actual issues.

[Bobtm]

38 minutes ago, Insizer said:

I think Ivara is an unfinished product, that it came out of the oven 3/4ths done. She is a nice frame in theory, and good in practice, but she still has glaring issues which many people glance over.

To start with this;  What?

Ivara is realistically speaking one of the more very well designed of frames regarding her power design.  Not only is she powerful, but she's got quite a fair deal of variety, unique mechanics, and a very clear theme to her abilities that manage to not pigeon-hole her into that one category.  When brought up in various discussions she's regularly one of the least complained about of any frame.

41 minutes ago, Insizer said:

Ivara, the master archer, does not know how to melee with her Artemis Bow active.

And you cannot shoot a gun while using Exalted Blade, Primal Fury, or Hysteria.  That's how an exalted weapon works by design.  They allow you to effectively go into a mode that strongly accentuates one singular weapon type but in doing so locks you out of other weapon options.  The reason you're locked out is because you're not expected to be able to stick to your exalted mode 100% of the time without some form of issue/drawback.  There's no reason for her to have a melee attack whilst using Artemis, it has close-range stopping power as a weapon.

44 minutes ago, Insizer said:

Artemis Bow's charge system makes zero sense.

Again no.  In Warframe we're generally chastised by large swathes of foes.  The reason Artemis' charge works like it does is to make clearing crowds with it the marginally slower option.  Basically you can snap-fire at closer ranges versus heavy targets to blitz them/kill them fast.  However even quick-firing at longer ranges won't have as much potency to single targets due to the spread.  This design presents a clear choice to the player when dealing with a heavy unit.  Do you want to get right up close and properly maximize your damage?  Even though there is an inherent risk involved in doing so, you're rewarded by being able to fling out numerous arrows into said single target.

By proxy, by having it set so that one must charge in order to fire the horizontal pattern, you slow Ivara's option for sweeping massive crowds.  The damage dealt by Artemis bow is very, very high when one has a proper mod loadout on their weapon.  In many cases it only takes 1 (maybe 2) charged shots to eliminate a broad cone of enemies from before you.  If the uncharged shot was horizontal, that would only serve to shoehorn Ivara into the same category as AoE spam nonsense more readily.

The way Artemis' charge functions is quite logical.

As for changing up the Artemis more from a fan into something else, let's leave that for augment mods.  It's a wonderful and potent ability that is viable and mechanically sound in its current iteration.

[Randomeer]

11 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

And you cannot shoot a gun while using Exalted Blade, Primal Fury, or Hysteria.  That's how an exalted weapon works by design.  They allow you to effectively go into a mode that strongly accentuates one singular weapon type but in doing so locks you out of other weapon options.  The reason you're locked out is because you're not expected to be able to stick to your exalted mode 100% of the time without some form of issue/drawback.  There's no reason for her to have a melee attack whilst using Artemis, it has close-range stopping power as a weapon.

Well, against high-level mobs it's sometimes useful to deliver finishers with Sleep Arrow + Covert Lethality dagger combo, which you can't do while your Artemis Bow is on. If not made baseline, it would be nice to at least get an augment mod to permit melee use. Artemis Bow secondary fire also launches sleep arrows much faster so it might be useful for normal sleep arrow stealth runs too.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Randomeer

[Bobtm]

1 minute ago, Randomeer said:

which you can't do while your Artemis Bow is on

That's why you hit 4 to disable your Artemis Bow and then proceed to use your CL modded dagger to eliminate the target.

Unique mods like Covert Lethality are already disabled during Exalted modes as is, so even if a melee option were added to Artemis it wouldn't/shouldn't work with CL in the first place.

[Randomeer]

12 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

That's why you hit 4 to disable your Artemis Bow and then proceed to use your CL modded dagger to eliminate the target.

Unique mods like Covert Lethality are already disabled during Exalted modes as is, so even if a melee option were added to Artemis it wouldn't/shouldn't work with CL in the first place.

Have you tried that yourself? It's quite clunky as Artemis Bow takes quite a long time to switch out, as well as costing energy to re-equip.

And covert lethality would work just fine if the change\augment to allow melee used your normal melee weapon rather than something unique to Artemis Bow.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Randomeer

[Ciaus]

I think the bow is good as is, it cements her identity as a sniper / priority killer. It is quicker to deal insane single target damage, but groups take setup time. That fits her identity and roles well.

Also Ivara is amazing, IMO one of the best designed frames. She has a solid role even in endgame, is fun, reasonably unique and in terms of raw power she's absolutely up there. Wanna kill sentients or snipe a boss? Ivara is *the* frame. Same for spy missions. 

[Tesseract7777]

18 minutes ago, Randomeer said:

Have you tried that yourself? It's quite clunky as Artemis Bow takes quite a long time to switch out, as well as costing energy to re-equip.

And covert lethality would work just fine if the change\augment to allow melee used your normal melee weapon rather than something unique to Artemis Bow.

Why should you be allowed to melee in Artemis Bow? I still haven't heard a good reason beyond "I just want the ability to be more powerful". 

No exalted weapon frame gets to use anything but their exalted weapon while in that ability, that is the way it should be.  Why would they make an exception just for Ivara? 

[Randomeer]

1 hour ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Why should you be allowed to melee in Artemis Bow? I still haven't heard a good reason beyond "I just want the ability to be more powerful". 

No exalted weapon frame gets to use anything but their exalted weapon while in that ability, that is the way it should be.  Why would they make an exception just for Ivara? 

Maybe that's why I suggested making an augment mod if baseline change is too much? I don't see much complaints about augment mods making abilities more powerful, looking at the most recent ones.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Randomeer

[----Fenrir----]

3 hours ago, (PS4)joshw1400 said:

Well her artemis bow is technically an exalted ability so you wouldn't be able to use anything else just like the others.

All the other exalted weapons are melee weapons. So it makes perfect sense not to be able to "quick melee" because you already have a melee weapon in your hand. Artemis Bow is not a melee weapon, it's a bow, and bows generally have "quick melee" available to them because breaking container and stuff like that with arrows is clunky and annoying.

2 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Why should you be allowed to melee in Artemis Bow? I still haven't heard a good reason beyond "I just want the ability to be more powerful". 

No exalted weapon frame gets to use anything but their exalted weapon while in that ability, that is the way it should be.  Why would they make an exception just for Ivara? 

Again, all other exalted weapons are melee weapons. They do not struggle with opening container because they are melee. Also I fail to see how being able to easily break container the way every other frame in the game can with a melee attack would make her stronger. It would just make her less clunky to use.

---------------

 

Also another point no one mentioned before, not being able to carry power cells in excavations is another major annoyance with Ivara. And now please don't come with "but Artemis Bow is a bow, a primary weapon, so it's normal to not be able to have it out and carry stuff at the same time. Because then I throw your faulty arguments right back at you, because all the other exalted weapons work while carrying stuff so why doesn't Artemis Bow? Because it is a bow? Then why can't Ivara use quick melee while using it? 

Edited December 10, 2016 by ----Fenrir----

[Gorila_Azul]

5 hours ago, Insizer said:

I have many other issues, but again, people get divided on them. These ones are ones that I consistently get largely positive feedback from.

Sounds like you don't like people disagreeing with you very much. I think you should either post all your thoughts or not post at all, because as it stands, the points you have brought up are in no way a supportable reason to say she is an unfinished product. Feedback is at its best when it's honest.

[-Oni-Bushido-]

This is my strategy with 'Exalted' Ivara: equip sleep arrows and with the alt fire button shoot a crowd of enemies a sleep arrow; then shoot, either  a quick succession of verticals, or  charge a horizontal shot. no hurries, no risk. everything dies. If not, prowl!

My suggestions in primary mods would be a reload mod, but not a fire rate mod (so that u can decide which one to shoot,I or ---; and then all mandatory mods, crit mods + elementals of your choice

Edited December 10, 2016 by Z_Caronte_Z

[DreamsmithJane]

4 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Why should you be allowed to melee in Artemis Bow? I still haven't heard a good reason beyond "I just want the ability to be more powerful". 

No exalted weapon frame gets to use anything but their exalted weapon while in that ability, that is the way it should be.  Why would they make an exception just for Ivara? 

To be honest, I think we should at least be allowed to use our fists as "quick melee" to break containers, even if it does negligible damage otherwise. It's way too clunky to turn it off just to loot some boxes.

[Tesseract7777]

 

2 hours ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

Also another point no one mentioned before, not being able to carry power cells in excavations is another major annoyance with Ivara. And now please don't come with "but Artemis Bow is a bow, a primary weapon, so it's normal to not be able to have it out and carry stuff at the same time. Because then I throw your faulty arguments right back at you, because all the other exalted weapons work while carrying stuff so why doesn't Artemis Bow? Because it is a bow? Then why can't Ivara use quick melee while using it? 

It isn't a faulty argument at all. The other exalted weapons are melee weapons, which are coded into the game so that you can hold a power cell/datamass/what have you while holding them. The games coding is designed so that you have to switch to sidearms (one handed) if you are holding a primary weapon of any kind when you pick up a power cell. 

They would have to greatly change the coding structure of how primary weapons work to implement a change like that. Artemis Bow is coded as a primary weapon, even though it is part of an ability, just like part of Exalted Blade is coded like a melee weapon even though it is an ability. With a melee weapon you can pick up power cells, with a primary you cannot. This is just the way the game is designed. They are both exalted abilities, but using very different weapon types. 

However, being able to utilize quick melee wouldn't necessarily be illogical. We can quick melee with our primary out, we just don't get the full benefits of having the melee weapon equipped. Carrying datamasses and all that would be illogical though. 

As for quick melee though, while it wouldn't necessarily be illogical to allow you to quick melee, it also isn't necessarily illogical to NOT allow you to either. You are channeling, that is the reason why. You are channeling a special energy weapon, so while doing that, you cannot use any other weapons. 

It is logical compared to the other exalted abilities, in that the other exalted abilities in no way allow you to use a weapon besides the melee from the exalted. 

I understand you not liking it, and you have a right to give feedback and suggest changes, and disagree with how DE does things. But this is not a case of them being illogical. The rules for exalted's and weapon types are being followed the way they always have, for Ivara. It is the same rules that have always applied in these situations simply being carried forward. They are not doing anything out of the ordinary to not allow her to quick melee or pick stuff up. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[doomagent13]

I'm pretty sure a jump-kick can break containers, although hitting lower than head height can be tricky...

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

of all the frames, ivara is pretty far up on the "doesnt need to be touched" list, along with frost, loki, nova, etc.

None of the other exalted weapons allow for a weapon change mid way. No guns for hysteria, exalted blade, primal fury, or hysteria, and no melee for peacemakers. why should ivara be any different. As to the horizontal v vertical spread, by changing it to be a non charged horizontal, congrats, you just killed her mod clearing capability. 

[DatDarkOne]

20 hours ago, Gorila_Azul said:

Sounds like you don't like people disagreeing with you very much. I think you should either post all your thoughts or not post at all, because as it stands, the points you have brought up are in no way a supportable reason to say she is an unfinished product. Feedback is at its best when it's honest.

^^^This.   and

7 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

None of the other exalted weapons allow for a weapon change mid way. No guns for hysteria, exalted blade, primal fury, or hysteria, and no melee for peacemakers. why should ivara be any different.

 

As for the charge mechanic, I could accept the change as an augment.  This way it's a choice and can be changed back and forth for player preferences or needs. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by DatDarkOne
corrected slightly

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 10/12/2016 at 6:23 PM, (PS4)joshw1400 said:

Well her artemis bow is technically an exalted ability so you wouldn't be able to use anything else just like the others.

On 10/12/2016 at 6:27 PM, NyxCrab said:

I like the idea of meleeing during Artemis Bow but the thing is, Artemis Bow is so strong is makes sense that you can't melee with it out. It's similar to why you can't shoot a gun when you have Wukong's Staff out. Not that I don't think we shouldn't be able to a weak melee attack in Artemis bow for breaking open containers and stuff, but it makes perfect sense as to why she doesn't have one.

On 10/12/2016 at 7:05 PM, Bobtm said:

And you cannot shoot a gun while using Exalted Blade, Primal Fury, or Hysteria.  That's how an exalted weapon works by design.  They allow you to effectively go into a mode that strongly accentuates one singular weapon type but in doing so locks you out of other weapon options.  The reason you're locked out is because you're not expected to be able to stick to your exalted mode 100% of the time without some form of issue/drawback.  There's no reason for her to have a melee attack whilst using Artemis, it has close-range stopping power as a weapon.

On 10/12/2016 at 7:48 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

No exalted weapon frame gets to use anything but their exalted weapon while in that ability, that is the way it should be.  Why would they make an exception just for Ivara? 

3 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

None of the other exalted weapons allow for a weapon change mid way. No guns for hysteria, exalted blade, primal fury, or hysteria, and no melee for peacemakers. why should ivara be any different. As to the horizontal v vertical spread, by changing it to be a non charged horizontal, congrats, you just killed her mod clearing capability. 

Okay, you want reasons. Here are two off the top of my head:

Artemis Bow obeys projectile weapon physics: extreme close-range targets can cause all projectiles to fire in a completely different direction and not hit targets in front of the user. Conversely, Melee Exalted weapons hit any/all targets in swing and Peacemaker is hitscan and cannot miss targets at which the player is pointing.

Artemis Bow does not function as other Exalted Weapons do: there is a relevant decision for every shot fired from Artemis Bow, as each individual shot costs an additional set amount of energy. Conversely, other Exalted Weapons are simply a drain while active; it is not only lacking a relevant decision but in fact beneficial to attack with it at all times, as the player is performing more attacks (getting additional output) for the same energy cost.

 

@Insizer

Criticising Ivara without pointing out the debilitating number of extra penalties Prowl applies unlike any other warframe, not to mention all the hidden stats not shown at all on the Abilities readout, though?

Melee with Artemis is one thing, but there are better things to take issue with than the spread choices. A primary weapon with some positive fire rate mod (even a Shred) will make it easy enough to fire out horizontal shots, in my experience, and there aren't too many without benefit from either punch-through (therefore Shred-viable) or raw fire-rate (thus will have a mod that benefits the Artemis draw).

 

Seriously, Ivara is excellent already, but the QOL of giving AB a quick-melee and taking off some of the excess downsides of Prowling would just be fantastic.

Edited December 11, 2016 by EDYinnit

[xRufus7x]

On 12/10/2016 at 4:00 PM, ----Fenrir---- said:

All the other exalted weapons are melee weapons. So it makes perfect sense not to be able to "quick melee" because you already have a melee weapon in your hand. Artemis Bow is not a melee weapon, it's a bow, and bows generally have "quick melee" available to them because breaking container and stuff like that with arrows is clunky and annoying.

Again, all other exalted weapons are melee weapons. They do not struggle with opening container because they are melee. Also I fail to see how being able to easily break container the way every other frame in the game can with a melee attack would make her stronger. It would just make her less clunky to use.

---------------

 

Also another point no one mentioned before, not being able to carry power cells in excavations is another major annoyance with Ivara. And now please don't come with "but Artemis Bow is a bow, a primary weapon, so it's normal to not be able to have it out and carry stuff at the same time. Because then I throw your faulty arguments right back at you, because all the other exalted weapons work while carrying stuff so why doesn't Artemis Bow? Because it is a bow? Then why can't Ivara use quick melee while using it? 

Mesa's peacemaker is also an Exalted weapon as is Titanias Dex Pixia and Diwata. The only exalted weapon that you can switch in the game is the Dex Pixia and Diwata and that is likely because you are switching from one exalted weapon to another.

[HunRii]

Ivara is one of the best thought out frames ability wise.  She has strengths and weaknesses.  If you use the infiltrate mod it negates some of the downsides.  She's an all around good frame capable of doing many things well.  There are also tasks she isn't all that great at as well.  Some tweaks would be nice, but on the list of frames needing looking at, she's at the bottom of that list for now.

[(XBOX)monger of life]

Ivara is one of the few frames I never get tired of playing. To me personally, I think most of her abilities are well thought out and fun to play and don't really need to be looked at. She's also my go to for spy missions as well :3