HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[bl4ckhunter]

4 hours ago, Xekrin said:

You wrote some seriously nice walls of text I didn't bother reading. I'm guessing all that boils down to

• create baby clan
• have people with enough samples finish research
• rotate members from original clan/alliances to get hema for all

Am I close?

 Yeah, though my point was i wanted to  give visibility and encourage people to work around it in a way perfectly allowed by the ToS not complain or argue about the cost so i frankly don't see how it even relates to merging it to a thread whose point is to inform people that the hema cost is here to stay, but i guess it's their way of trying to put the jinn back in the bottle, guess it also kind of explains why i never stumbled upon anyone suggesting the same thing. The mods have turned this thread into the thrash bin of everything that even remotely mentions the hema and mutagen samples so they can bury the issue they can't delete. 

Oh well, i think will make a reddit then if someone hasn't already by tomorrow, got to give it some visibility it would be a shame if someone didn't think of it and actually farmed 500k mutagen samples i wouldn't want to inflict that on anyone.

[KIREEK]

1 hour ago, Xekrin said:

Insulting players completely invalidates any and all advice, whether it may or may not be useful to anyone, completely.

Just thought you should know.

How is it insulting when the gameplay required over a decent amount of time is next to none and some players find it WAY to much.

The math is simple, either the gameplay is very.......very low or it's very ineficient, it's like you expect stuff to drop and at the same time not kill the enemies.

I know what is fair, i have played and it doesn't take me much time to gather the mutagens and so i try to understand the difficulties many have, including the lack of time to play the game or the intererest in running a dead clan or the interest to be in a dead clan, the problem is that many are asking for such a low grind it might be better not to play at all, sorties are 3 missions, invasions are 3 missions, all of that seems to be to much grind already because i end up finding a gameplay requirement that is lower than that, let's say 2 missions a day and players complain that the grind is to much

If playing a minimal ammount of time is to much or you still haven't hema researched then something is wrong there.

For me it's pretty simple, kick the players that don't play or contribute, change clan to one that cares and put the matters into your hands, dedicate 30 minutes to play a game on the derelicts, go help players from your clan, plan a game at a specific time and then do it over the course of a few days, grab other weapons to do the so desired +10 waves on the void, don't do the research, don't craft, use the mutagens on other MR fodder weapons, leave the hema research for later (2 or 3 months later, maybe you will have enough mutagens by then).

So many things you can do and it seems what most players want is to sit back, relax and wait for DE to play for them.

Keep complaining guys, so far it has worked right?

More gameplay (quality gameplay) and less moaning pls

 

Edited January 27, 2017 by KIREEK

[Xekrin]

14 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

How is it insulting

Because it is, btw didn't read anything beyond what I quoted.  I'm sure it was nice and condescending though.

[Tyrian3k]

1 minute ago, Xekrin said:

Because it is, btw didn't read anything beyond what I quoted.  I'm sure it was nice and condescending though.

It's the usual stuff that has been debunked a dozen times in this thread already. Insulting to my intelligence at best.

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

3 hours ago, Phatose said:

I don't believe you can cancel clan research once it's started, meaning any clan which started the research will not be able to research anything else in the infested lab until it's done.  Plat can't get around that.

I didn't know that lol feelsbadman 

[bl4ckhunter]

22 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

Keep complaining guys, so far it has worked right?

Uh.. yes? the only time EVER de seems to listen to us is when we complain loudly for extended amounts of time. see oxium, syndicate rep, endless relics, focus, etch.

 

[TARINunit9]

10 hours ago, iDEBz said:

Another classic case of DE refusing to change something because of prior players investment.

It might not be so bad if they would just own up to how inconsistent they're being. They made Saryn Prime cheaper,, for one thing. It's clear at this point that they're either A) COMPLETELY out of touch with how bad the situation is (such as assuming Mutagen is as common as Detonite, when it's not even remotely close), or B) lieing, and rapidly running out of excuses to hide their lies

[Valthryn]

The Hema is S#&$ tho. Prisma Grakata is 20x better. The mutagen sample cost is $&*&*#(%&, but at least they didn't do it for the good weapon, Hirudo. They used Nitain for that one, which is a whole other problem.

[bl4ckhunter]

1 minute ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

The Hema is S#&$ tho. Prisma Grakata is 20x better. The mutagen sample cost is $&*&*#(%&, but at least they didn't do it for the good weapon, Hirudo. They used Nitain for that one, which is a whole other problem.

well but what will you do then when the weapon that comes next requires you to research the hema?  or when it requires 10000 neural sensors? it's the principle of things that should bother people.

[Naskoni]

22 minutes ago, Tyrian3k said:

It's the usual stuff that has been debunked a dozen times in this thread already. Insulting to my intelligence at best.

There is this wonderful ignore function for special individuals like him.

[k05h]

4 hours ago, Xekrin said:

You wrote some seriously nice walls of text I didn't bother reading. I'm guessing all that boils down to

• create baby clan
• have people with enough samples finish research
• rotate members from original clan/alliances to get hema for all

Am I close?

That is the general idea. 

You beat cheese with even more cheese. Lesson learned from Warframe.

[notlamprey]

7 minutes ago, k05h said:

That is the general idea. 

You beat cheese with even more cheese. Lesson learned from Warframe.

First of all, I think the dedication of all the people continuing to post in this thread is really commendable. This is the kind of thing that makes the game better.

Second, I'm really interested to see how many people adopt this sort of strategy to trivialize the increasingly burdensome item costs. DE would, in theory, be forced to commute all the heavy costs to the foundry blueprints.

Right now, my best guess is that they were experimenting with a way to add these "hypercost items" and avoid some of the backlash by loading the bulk of the cost into research. Clearly, they didn't avoid any backlash. They are, at least, apparently quite happy (or quick to pretend they're happy) with how many units of Hema were purchased relative to the number crafted.

I keep trying to analyze all the angles of this puzzle, but it turns into a multi-page thesis every time. I guess it's better just to bottom-line it:

Hema's research cost was a mistake. Players have the ability to put some pressure on DE to change its tactics. We should keep talking about this.

 

 

[John89brensen]

2 hours ago, KIREEK said:

well, no

I did a 30 minute survival to help other players and i ended up with more than 50 mutagens, so 500 should take 300 minutes. Now, if you collect some of the rewards there, do quests there, gather corrupted mods, farm specific mods or rewards, unlock the nodes, scan enemies like kavats, gather the ayantan sculpture from maroo, repeat the boss a few times, those 300 minutes end up being not so hard at all, but it must be 300 minutes of pure killing, you do not farm in a capture by killing 2 enemies.

So, even if you need 1000 or 2000, it still doesn't take that much time to get the mutagens, it might take more than a day, but imagine this, doing 30 minutes survivals across 2 weeks (14 days), i mean is that out of this world? a 30 minute mission every day?

Excuse me, but what you say is a complete falsehood. 

First of all, its not 500 the base cost, its 5000 ms. 500 would be the individual cost for each member of a clan, that is assuming a clan has 100% members and those members are 100% active, which is not always the case. This cost only goes up the bigger the clan is, and like i said not all members are willing to sit  with a meta squad in ODD/S for hours to farm just one resource, do remember that Hema research requires more (and in big quantities) of other resources. 

Second, a player that has completed all the quests, all corrupted mods, and farmed for kavat dna, has little reason to go back there. That being said, non endless missions dont yield nearly as much MS as endless missions do, so why would you do an exterminate mission instead of a survival/defense is beyond me. Also I believe you are forgetting that you dont unlock nodes in derelict.

2 hours ago, KIREEK said:

You don't need boosters, you just need to play, a drag for many players out there who find it difficult to kill 200 enemies in a capture mission

All you white knights keep forgetting that we do play the game, we just dont find it fun to sit for 5 hours to get one resource for the research project of one rifle with a gimmick. This in a game that is infamous for the amount of grind it requires. And remember that DE said they were going to reduce the grind in 2016, a nice joke. This without mentioning that Hema might possibly be used as a gate for future lab content. As to why would you kill 200 enemies in a capture mission is beyond me, you can complete it without killing anyone, also that is completely off topic.

What also pisses a lot of people is the response we got from DE, first saying that they would increase MS drops, in effect nerfing all the other research costs in the Bio lab, and after saying that they backed out claiming that "it rains ms in derelict, go farm", and that they dont want to "dishonor those who already completed it". That last statement is funny considering they could have refunded clans that completed the reseach, and that DE has gone back on costs in the past, without "honoring" those that payed the initial full price.

They could at least increase ms drops in Eris so people can play maps other than derelict, or make it an infested drop, wherever the infested might be.

[iDEBz]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

rapidly running out of excuses to hide their lies

Like when Steve said its raining mutagen in the derelict. 

[Etan-gK]

11 minutes ago, iDEBz said:

Like when Steve said its raining mutagen in the derelict. 

it's been clear for a long time that they never actually stopped to play their own game

[iDEBz]

11 hours ago, Helljack84 said:

*Looks at his pile of vandal/wraith weapons, sigils and "exclusive" mods everyone and his kubrow have now* Yeah, they've always been adamant with these things...

Literally the whole community was salty about that so of course that needed to be changed, and besides the was nothing to special about the "exclusive" stuff to begin with, just another way to piss of the player base and make them riot on the forums. As for what i said in my original point the problem is this time is a minority that's crying wolf about it because DE wanted to make the experience for newer players better which basically says to the vets they wasted there time and they get salty when it becomes irrelevant. Because of this its beginning to look like DE are biased towards the people that cry about everything rather than worry about the masses that are quitting the game because nothing is being done to improve it.

 

Edited January 27, 2017 by iDEBz

[iDEBz]

1 minute ago, Etan-gK said:

it's been clear for a long time that they never actually stopped to play their own game

Just go watch his twitch stream, you will want to scream because he actually has no idea how to play the game.

[kaliazane]

49 minutes ago, iDEBz said:

Like when Steve said its raining mutagen in the derelict. 

It is, 20 waves.

[iDEBz]

33 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

It is, 20 waves.

I see you're using hydroid so assuming you're using pilfering swarm and im going to assume you have a Nekros or 2 there as well and maybe a nova? Assuming that each run you have a squad built around looting with 200 per 20 waves for a moon clan to achieve this it would be: 500000/200= 2500 runs of 20 waves or 50000 waves. Now considering how many clans are basically full of inactives and few players who can play over and over again let alone have looting builds, how could any moon clan possibly achieve this in reasonable time. I'm in a mountain clan of around 250 players with no more than 30-40 active on a good day, sometimes even as few as 10. Requiring 150000 samples and we have barely scratched the surface with 13500.

Now other than the Hema this clan has started research on every new research that has came out in under 2 days because the players that do contribute either already have a significant amount of the required resources just through playing random missions or can farm it without too much difficulty. Problem is because the drop rate of mutagen in normal missions is abysmal, chances of players having an abundance of it is highly unlikely. Yet the funny part is fieldron and detonite sample is abundant my inventory having 21k and 18 k respectively and mutagen being as little as 116. Never have i ever targeted farming the latter, its just what i have picked up along the way. The simple fact that mutagen is the exact opposite in that respect shows that an increased drop rate in the derelict (whatever is may be vs eris) is not a solution and rather DE's excuse to not address it. All because the only thing they see is numbers and assume every clan member will contribute. 

[MobyTheDuck]

I like how Steve said he wanted to change something but the other devs dug their heels about it.

You know, the problem with using other people as meatshields, is that it doesnt works against nukes.

[iDEBz]

21 minutes ago, iDEBz said:

I see you're using hydroid so assuming you're using pilfering swarm and im going to assume you have a Nekros or 2 there as well and maybe a nova? Assuming that each run you have a squad built around looting with 200 per 20 waves for a moon clan to achieve this it would be: 500000/200= 2500 runs of 20 waves or 50000 waves. Now considering how many clans are basically full of inactives and few players who can play over and over again let alone have looting builds, how could any moon clan possibly achieve this in reasonable time. I'm in a mountain clan of around 250 players with no more than 30-40 active on a good day, sometimes even as few as 10. Requiring 150000 samples and we have barely scratched the surface with 13500.

Now other than the Hema this clan has started research on every new research that has came out in under 2 days because the players that do contribute either already have a significant amount of the required resources just through playing random missions or can farm it without too much difficulty. Problem is because the drop rate of mutagen in normal missions is abysmal, chances of players having an abundance of it is highly unlikely. Yet the funny part is fieldron and detonite sample is abundant my inventory having 21k and 18 k respectively and mutagen being as little as 116. Never have i ever targeted farming the latter, its just what i have picked up along the way. The simple fact that mutagen is the exact opposite in that respect shows that an increased drop rate in the derelict (whatever is may be vs eris) is not a solution and rather DE's excuse to not address it. All because the only thing they see is numbers and assume every clan member will contribute. 

20 Waves solo with a double resource booster with a non looter frame. 7 drops.

http://imgur.com/zpRmaMy

I rest my case.

[kaliazane]

1 hour ago, iDEBz said:

20 Waves solo with a double resource booster with a non looter frame. 7 drops.

http://imgur.com/zpRmaMy

I rest my case.

Yes I'm farming efficiently, just as you should and yes dead large clans won't be able to complete it.

I was standing afk on my ship for past 2 hours and got 0 mutagen samples, I can provide screen aswell ! That's Zero samples after 2 hours online, crazy !!!

[plexus_brachialis]

6 hours ago, KIREEK said:

More gameplay (quality gameplay) and less moaning pls

 

just lol. 'grind the same place every day'=quality?

[(XBOX)DancesInShadow]

Oh come on... Ghost requirements is 5k Mutagen mass.

Me and a couple of the guys just sit down and run a few derilect survivals. We got it within an hour or so. If anything can we talk about farming for Kuva? that by far is probably the most annoying mission i've come across. 

[KIREEK]

7 hours ago, John89brensen said:

Excuse me, but what you say is a complete falsehood. 

First of all, its not 500 the base cost, its 5000 ms. 500 would be the individual cost for each member of a clan, that is assuming a clan has 100% members and those members are 100% active, which is not always the case. This cost only goes up the bigger the clan is, and like i said not all members are willing to sit  with a meta squad in ODD/S for hours to farm just one resource, do remember that Hema research requires more (and in big quantities) of other resources. 

Second, a player that has completed all the quests, all corrupted mods, and farmed for kavat dna, has little reason to go back there. That being said, non endless missions dont yield nearly as much MS as endless missions do, so why would you do an exterminate mission instead of a survival/defense is beyond me. Also I believe you are forgetting that you dont unlock nodes in derelict.

All you white knights keep forgetting that we do play the game, we just dont find it fun to sit for 5 hours to get one resource for the research project of one rifle with a gimmick. This in a game that is infamous for the amount of grind it requires. And remember that DE said they were going to reduce the grind in 2016, a nice joke. This without mentioning that Hema might possibly be used as a gate for future lab content. As to why would you kill 200 enemies in a capture mission is beyond me, you can complete it without killing anyone, also that is completely off topic.

What also pisses a lot of people is the response we got from DE, first saying that they would increase MS drops, in effect nerfing all the other research costs in the Bio lab, and after saying that they backed out claiming that "it rains ms in derelict, go farm", and that they dont want to "dishonor those who already completed it". That last statement is funny considering they could have refunded clans that completed the reseach, and that DE has gone back on costs in the past, without "honoring" those that payed the initial full price.

They could at least increase ms drops in Eris so people can play maps other than derelict, or make it an infested drop, wherever the infested might be.

5 hours isn't much on the long term, across 10 days that's like 30 minutes a day

Nodes in derelict need to be done to count towards star map completion

The idea behind doing nodes efficiently is by killing as many enemies as possible as opposed to avoiding them (very common in sabotages, captures, assassination)

500 is an ammount that you should have without even grinding for it, i got 6k and i never technically never farmed mutagen samples, i just helped and played some derelict missions, helped clanmates and like you said i have little reason to go back there, but when i do i do kill as many as i can.

So you need 1000, or 2000, either you do that effort or you need to put the matter into your own hands regarding clan management or clan participation.Clans that don't have active members, i can't really understand why such clans are fun.

The idea is for a collective team to research, but you either accept the consequences of being alone or you start questioning the clanmates you have, go directly to them and ask, "in the folowing month (30 days), how many mutagens you farmed and placed on the research?" if they say none then just kick them out, not even having the patience or the effort to play 10 minutes, jesus christ, that's not playing the game, that's laziness.

Each passing day reduces the grind for hema (daily) or extends the ammount of time you have to gather the resources, we are aproaching the numbers where if someone doesn't have hema researched then there is a serious activity or management problem in the clan.

Edited January 27, 2017 by KIREEK