HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[kitsu]

Well, the longer DE does not properly address this, the more bitter the community will become.

Already they are abusing the clan invite system so at this point DE is just being stubborn and ignoring it, something they are too good at.

Edited February 6, 2017 by kitsu

[KIREEK]

I'm saying that you need to balance things, balance clan activity (not 0 and not 100%), balance gameplay efficiency (not 0 kills and not 1 million kills), you need a team strategy (i don't mean 4 cc warframes and i don't mean the super meta trinity hidroid nova nekros with boosters) and time (that means not playing for 30 minutes and not playing for 6 months)

The issue with arguments here is that when i say you don't need meta, someone will grab a portion from my comments and say "but you're saying we need a meta", NO, you do not need a meta, NO you do not need 100% clan activity

when i say these things i'm not saying a 10% active clan should get things done fast.

With you guys it's 8 or 80, use common sense ppl.

Balanced and fair gameplay across the board, no meta, no hardcore clans, no long farming sessions. Just play the derelicts, period.

[John89brensen]

34 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

balance clan activity (not 0 and not 100%)

Clans that do not have 100% activity, or are not at 100% capacity (like a storm clan with 200 members instead of 300) makes DE's claim that it only takes 500 ms a head absurd. Edit: A storm clan can be 100% active, but if it has 101 members it will already be more than 500 ms a head

 

34 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

balance gameplay efficiency (not 0 kills and not 1 million kills)

What does that even mean?! A Nekros can sit happily in a corner and let his teammates kill everything in the room, while having desecrate activated.

 

34 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

you need a team strategy (i don't mean 4 cc warframes and i don't mean the super meta trinity hidroid nova nekros with boosters)

You need a meta squad, because no one will go farming MS with anything less, boosters or no boosters. Or what you actually think you can get any worthwhile amount of MS with a non meta squad with just a Nekros? 

 

34 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

time (that means not playing for 30 minutes and not playing for 6 months)

With the amount of things there is to grind in this game, most players wont feel inclined to sit in one map for a hour a day, just for a research project. Peoples game time is valuable, if something is boring and repetitive, chances are they will go do something else.

 

34 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

The issue with arguments here is that when i say you don't need meta, someone will grab a portion from my comments and say "but you're saying we need a meta", NO, you do not need a meta, NO you do not need 100% clan activity

Already established, that if you want to be efficient at farming you need a meta squad. Otherwise you are wasting your, and everyone elses time, something Hema research already does.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by John89brensen
Wrote mountain clan instead of storm.

[Liminal]

28 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

Balanced and fair gameplay across the board, no meta, no hardcore clans, no long farming sessions. Just play the derelicts, period.

Okay, then I get 0-10 per mission. For me that's between 500 and 1000 missions (in the derelicts only). That's not really reasonable.

I don't get what you're saying... "just playing" doesn't get you the samples. I "just played" for 4 years, farming primes, nekros, corrupted mods and scanning cats and chasing sculptures, and it wasn't enough.

[sulusdacor]

good thing this issue is fixed after more then a month now ... he said ironicly ...

but in all seriousness i hope this problem gets a second look. there was the standpoint that nothing is final, since it is a beta and willing to change things around. so i hope this is the case for such minor things too.

the other point is that the droprate increase is not live as far as the update notes go. another thing going in hand with this is for a full party in orokin derelcit (which spawns more enemies = more loot) for a solo player there needs to be an active recruitment chat to get players. but the relic system kinda took the life out of that. so even if the droprate change goes life. it will be a bad bandage for the problem itself...

so yeah as i said, hopeful that this get's another look.

fight on tenno =)

[John89brensen]

1 minute ago, The_Doc said:

"just playing" doesn't get you the samples

To further add to this. Casually playing derelict over the course of the last 4 years net me 700 ms. So if i were a solo clan (which im not), im guessing in about a decade i can finish my research.. you know just playing....

[John89brensen]

3 minutes ago, sulusdacor said:

the other point is that the droprate increase is not live as far as the update notes go.

DE went back on this, there will be no droprate increase. Perhaps they realised that they were nerfing all other Biolab research. But on the other hand, DE has refused to increase MS drops outside derelict (the only place where you can farm them reliably). Their last response, from DE Steve, was "its raining in derelicts, go there".

[(PSN)Kop_Fan09]

74 pages long and still not been altered in anyway? Truly remarkable...

i posted god knows how many pages back about contributing 6300 samples and at the time my clan needed 43k I believe, well my clan still needs 42k because no one in their right mind wants to sit in ODD farming like crazy for samples.

This has gone on far too long and the devs really should have done something by now, even if it was reducing the requirement in half (which still leaves a huge amount of samples required) at least something would have been done to ease the grind.

[Liminal]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Kop_Fan09 said:

74 pages long and still not been altered in anyway? Truly remarkable...

Plus the other 160 (I think?) page thread that got locked :P

[(PSN)Kop_Fan09]

Just now, The_Doc said:

Plus the other 160 (I think?) page thread that got locked :P

Lol, the community will not be silenced on this one!

[SkadiNyx]

36 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

With the amount of things there is to grind in this game, most players wont feel inclined to sit in one map for a hour a day, just for a research project. Peoples game time is valuable, if something is boring and repetitive, chances are they will go do something else.

^ This.
 

[ChuckMaverick]

1 hour ago, KIREEK said:

I'm saying that you need to balance things, balance clan activity (not 0 and not 100%), balance gameplay efficiency (not 0 kills and not 1 million kills), you need a team strategy (i don't mean 4 cc warframes and i don't mean the super meta trinity hidroid nova nekros with boosters) and time (that means not playing for 30 minutes and not playing for 6 months)

They were discussing clan population/activity/participation in the Second Stream podcast last Friday (in the context of Kingpin missions).

The consensus of the guests was that around 40-60% clan activity was a reasonable figure to use for balancing.

It was refreshing to have some guests who actually offered some constructive feedback and criticism for a change, I hope that trend continues.

[Salenstormwing]

Okay, I put a lot of thought into this, and I realized that I have like 5 trillion Fieldron Samples, but only a few hundred Mutagen Samples.

Why?

Because there's only 2 places for Mutagen Samples (Eris as a VERY RARE & the OD as Rare), while there are no less than 6 planets for Fieldron Samples. So, 1 planet and 1 area you need KEYS for verses 6 planets. OH, Detonite Ampules are in the same league as Fieldron Samples, with 6 planets

So, how do we fix this? Either you need a LOT more planets with Mutagen Samples to drop, or (and this is my personal favorite) make SAMPLES a universal material. Why do we have Fieldron and Mutagen Samples (and Detonite Ampules)? Because we need them to craft BETTER materials to actually make things? That's it. And most of those can be gotten just by doing Invasions instead. So you end up with a ton of Fieldrons littering your inventory doing Jack & Spit.

Now, there are TWO ways to go about making Samples a universal material:

1. Fieldron and Mutagen Samples (and Ampules) just become "Samples", and you just need 10 "Samples" to make whatever material you want. Just buy a BP, and shove whatever "Samples" you need into it. OR...

2. Make Fieldrons, Mutagen Samples, and Detonite Ampules all have a 1/3 chance for any planet with one of those materials. Normally you get Detonite Ampules from Mercury. Why not instead make it where if you pick up the "rare material", you have an equal chance of picking up one of the "sample materials". Instead of increasing mutagen samples alone, you make all these "rare" materials have an equal drop chance no matter where you go, leaving you with the ability to not be stuck farming ODS for 54 hours straight.

 

But, I'm crazy and I have no idea what I'm talking about, because I'd like to build a Christmas Tree with all the Detonite Ampules I have, or a giant Microwave oven out of Fieldron Samples, but Mutagen Samples... I'm SOL on.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

2 hours ago, John89brensen said:

 With the amount of things there is to grind in this game, most players wont feel inclined to sit in one map for a hour a day, just for a research project. Peoples game time is valuable, if something is boring and repetitive, chances are they will go do something else.

 

 

 

While they are willing to play just few nodes thru whole Star chart and calling their own profit efficiency.

[gizol333]

2 hours ago, The_Doc said:

Plus the other 160 (I think?) page thread that got locked :P

178 pages

[(PSN)Silverback73]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Kop_Fan09 said:

74 pages long and still not been altered in anyway? Truly remarkable...

i posted god knows how many pages back about contributing 6300 samples and at the time my clan needed 43k I believe, well my clan still needs 42k because no one in their right mind wants to sit in ODD farming like crazy for samples.

This has gone on far too long and the devs really should have done something by now, even if it was reducing the requirement in half (which still leaves a huge amount of samples required) at least something would have been done to ease the grind.

This speaks to the larger issue of Exclusionary choice and Timesink saturation.

Time constraints, Sheer volume, resource inflation, and drop table dilution mean you literally don't have enough time in a normal player's day to do it all.

The casual, consistent player simply will NOT be able to do and obtain EVERYTHING without using plat and real money.

It becomes imperative that the choices for gameplay that players DO make need to be fulfilling and enjoyable and in a sustained way.

If you rush, rush, rush to get ever-more revenue-generating content out there that isn't at or above a given standard, the foundation for the revenue model crumbles as the player base erodes.

To be fair, veterans can be a crotchety, entitled bunch with ever rising expectations and jaded filters.  ( --> me)

But we are also a loyal bunch when treated right.

I'm always careful to remember the myriad of gameplay features that make Warframe a great squad-based, space-ninja dungeon crawl.  It comes close to the lore and artwork that frame the Tennoverse experience for me as a player.

We've gradually seen our limits tested, culminating in a casual player's saturation point, with the Hema and to a lesser extent, Nidus farming.

DE must take every precaution to avoid hamstringing itself.

Players must ALWAYS be made to feel like the developer wants us to play and enjoy the game...and THEN support it.  It's definitely a challenge at this point in the game's lifecycle.

Farming Nidus to the point of 8 systems while trying for a single neuroptics tested me.  No alternative drops of any consequence rewarded my tenacity in the face of RnG.  I started resenting that I couldn't run sorties or experience other parts of the game that I love and clan members largely abandoned Salvage once they ran the Nidus farm Timesink.

See, I'm building Nidus now, and I still marvel at the design and feel like a kid with a living He-man toy about to come to life.  But I feel for those who look at the Hema as an albatross.

Obtaining Nidus was fantastic.  The journey to get there could have been so much more.

 

[Salenstormwing]

A follow-up to my previous post on this page.... I have 19k Fieldron Samples. I have 17k Detonite Ampules. I've ONLY earned maybe 500 Mutagen Samples (which some were donated to the Hema project). 

And I have over 2000 hours in Warframe. Just looking at the difference between materials of the same "rarity" should tell DE that this is really messed up. You have 3 materials that are roughly the same, but you have 2 that are on 6 planets and 1 that is only on 1 planet (and 1 extra area). Just... yeah, this is B.S. of the highest level of magnitude and it should have been easy to see by just a quick glance at WHAT people play, WHERE they are playing, and WHAT materials they have, and in WHAT ratio.

Statistics man.... not even once.

[(PSN)LeonidasxGGG]

This is a great post and I congrat the community for still going strong in this controversial issue.

I have recently changed clans because I needed more weapons to upgrade my MR and it was asked if me 35 platinum!? I of course did not pay. They did accept me nonetheless and the only weapon they DIDN'T have was exactly the Hema. They do ask for contributions and I have tried to do Derelict when I got resources X2 drop, however we need +45000!... Which is discouraging.

However, because I had so many resources, I did "reluctantly" contribute with as many mutagen samples as I could (still needed to save some to build the new weapons) AND finished building four new rooms in the Dojo... Resources better spent I should say. In my opinion, Clans that don't have it will not go to great lengths to get it anytime soon... And rightly so.

Altough this is just a game, in this case, the trust between DE and us (the millions of worldwide players) as been broken.

[(PSN)Unlucky1307]

As someone currently fighting the grind wall of the Hema in a ghost clan with literally 2 people in it, I would love to see the cost dropped SEVERELY (At minimum down to 1000 for ghost clans, 500 would be preferable) and the difference be refunded, or if I finish the grind before it's lowered and for clans who have finished it they should get some sort of special cosmetic SET, such as a primed variant of one of the infested armor sets or a special skin for the Hema+Nidus.

[owendawgx]

There's no point, they aren't going to change it, because the grind being this obscene isn't a problem in their eyes, even if the entire community is screaming for change.

See the last devstream where they said "so we know players hate invulnerability phases, but we're adding in more". 

They are outright admitting that we hate it, but are refusing to change it. That's their position. Personally, it was gifted to me, but this is such a frustrating and disgusting issue that it's making me want to stay away from the game entirely. 

[kaliazane]

9 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

I have seen players using new released research content such as Caustacyst, Pox during Day One in game, even though the research cost and crafting cost were "nothing" as someone stated.

That's because many long time players have lots of plat and nothing to spend it on, so they might aswell buy it.

[John89brensen]

54 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

That's because many long time players have lots of plat and nothing to spend it on, so they might aswell buy it.

Also, as far as i know, you cant speed up research with platinum.

[Ditto132]

8 hours ago, John89brensen said:

DE went back on this, there will be no droprate increase. Perhaps they realised that they were nerfing all other Biolab research. But on the other hand, DE has refused to increase MS drops outside derelict (the only place where you can farm them reliably). Their last response, from DE Steve, was "its raining in derelicts, go there".

8 hours ago, (PS4)Kop_Fan09 said:

Lol, the community will not be silenced on this one!

Here is the 178 pages thread started by @NativeKiller:
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/738163-devstream-85-included-costs-are-not-changing-ghost-clan-needs-5000-mutagen-samples-to-research-hema-500000-mutagen-samples-for-a-moon-clan/

 

7 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

-Snip-

The current way of trying to encourage group/clan team-play and effort is just not effective.
Kicking members and buying/selling membership just shows that players are exploiting and bypassing the so-called "stretch goal" instead of doing it as intended.
The situation becomes "it's every man for himself"

Personally, how I believe that clan goal should be implemented is the goal should be reasonably challenging and doable for solo clan, balanced and normal/default difficulty for partial clan and trivial for full clan participation.

This would encourage team-play just like Sortie does to some extend. Sortie is not really meant for solo play, but it is still doable, while it encourages players to try and play in full squad (even in public) as it would be trivial due to team synergy. Even Sortie doesn't need full meta squad and efficient to be able to complete it.

Another example to encourage team-play is Spy mission. It is to solo Spy mission in ~7 mins for 3 vaults from my experiences.
But it would encourage team-play with more players as each player could each take a vault, making it trivial. It indirectly reward team-play.

Can you imagine if the Sortie is being balanced around the idea that full meta squad with near perfect efficient and synergy to be able to pull off, with no room for mistakes?
That is currently how the Hema research cost is being balanced with. Full clan participation doesn't even have much benefits.

It does NOT encourage full clan participation, but it is punishing clans without full clan participation.

[John89brensen]

24 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

snip

I find it funny how DE Steve says they got possitive feedback about the Hema research. From where are they getting their feedback? 

The "not wanting to change costs, so they can honor the players that completed Hema research" is kinda hypocritical. Where is the honor of those that payed full price for Vauban Prime, before the cost was reduced, or the honor of those that farmed oxium for the then fairly expensive Zephyr, in those early days when oxium farms yielded with luck 20 per mission?

28 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

Another example to encourage team-play is Spy mission. It is to solo Spy mission in ~7 mins for 3 vaults from my experiences.
But it would encourage team-play with more players as each player could each take a vault, making it trivial. It indirectly reward team-play.

This is off topic. But there is nothing worse than playing Spy with other random humans. I always solo Spy, the only time i might play with people, is with friends that i know how they play, and i know they wont ruin the mission at the first try.

[Ditto132]

6 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

I find it funny how DE Steve says they got possitive feedback about the Hema research. From where are they getting their feedback? 

The "not wanting to change costs, so they can honor the players that completed Hema research" is kinda hypocritical. Where is the honor of those that payed full price for Vauban Prime, before the cost was reduced, or the honor of those that farmed oxium for the then fairly expensive Zephyr, in those early days when oxium farms yielded with luck 20 per mission?

This is off topic. But there is nothing worse than playing Spy with other random humans. I always solo Spy, the only time i might play with people, is with friends that i know how they play, and i know they wont ruin the mission at the first try.

I have pointed out those contradictions with regard to "honouring" players before, quite a few times.
Even some of those "honoured" players gave better suggestions and convincing reasonings than Steve. That is the sad part.

As for the Spy mission, it is an example, an analogy for implementing a method for encouraging and rewarding team-play.
I personally don't like to play Spy with public, as that require players to how what they are doing. That why I know how much time each solo Spy mission takes.
Even that, it still does encourage the non-solo plays with some risks and rewards by playing with others.