Nidus really needs to get reworked

[Hemmo67]

revoke fratilities of flesh EVOLVE TO BETTER!

[Zerathos_Dagon]

44 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

Nidus is obviously not crippled from this nerf, but it does highlight a general issue - People hate nullifiers and this is just another thing on top of that.

It's not that they're impossible to deal with and it's certainly an issue of mind-over-matter with these guys, but apart from a mechanics perspective they just don't make sense. Unlike an ancient healer which presents a very real threat that you should prioritize, nullifiers make you feel powerless. Their bubbles are OP as all hell just in terms of soaking damage and if 2-3 of them stack then it's a source of exasperation, as in it's not at all fun to deal with - It abruptly grinds the flow of the game down to a halt and Corpus already have a slew of annoying enemies.

I mean, if I slide attack with a two-hander in to kill those nullifiers, then overlapping bubbles should not prevent the melee damage. The blade is literally slicing through them, but because of game logic that damage was soaked? Come on...
I really dislike that they shrink too, as it's incredibly annoying when you're trying to melee them and someone else shrinks the bubble by shooting it, thereby limiting your effective melee range against even a single one of them.

Then there's the stealth aspect - While it's great that their bubbles are now off by default when unalerted, they still turn it on when you go in to use a finisher on them, removing your stealth. I don't know if this is an oversight, but it's really frustrating.

So... you can't overpower them, you can't stealth kill them unless everything nearby is looking away from them, you can't always melee them and they switch off/block your powers. That's not a tactical element of gameplay, that's what we call an overdesigned enemy that nearly everyone hates.

With Nidus, the thing is that his powers are all of a physical origin. He "collects" material and unleashes it by various means, so nullifiers having any effect on that is just weird. I totally get why, but I also don't see it as necessary when the nullifier itself is the problem, or at least that's the way I see it.

 

True, I have to agree with this as well. Nullies have been a problem in Warframe for a long time now, making things less fun, less balanced and more tedious just by their presence. The fact that their shields can absorb both abilities and bullets is just ridiculous, and on top of that it isn't just blocking abilities, it's straight up dispelling them. Warframes like Chroma (who has to constantly re-cast a 2-ability combo of a total of 125-energy-cost), and Inaros (who has to sacrifice tons of health because his scarab armor constantly gets removed), have it the worst at the moment. Though it's not limited to them, because Nullifiers are the incarnation of frustration to all frames.

It's completely crazy from a lore point of view too! How in the hell did the Corpus get the technology to block (and dispell) both void energies and the infestation? I mean if that's true, they should be able to straight-up murder most/all tenno right? Since we are basically made of infestaion and void stuff.

In short, I realize that this whole Nidus issue comes not from him or the nerfs made to him, but rather the fact that Nullifiers still remain horribly designed units and DE just reminded us that they are still here and as annoying as ever.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Zerathos_Dagon

[Miser_able]

Idk what nerf you are talking about. After the change I get stacks faster then before.

[Littlerift]

The nerfs were incredibly gentle and barely changed him in any meaningful way, I really don't understand any of the complaining. But hey, this is the community that complained about how the Excalibur nerfs had made him useless so...

If anybody manages to run out of stacks with Nidus, pre-change or post-change, they should probably just sell him anyway.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Littlerift

[Littlerift]

2 minutes ago, Zerathos_Dagon said:

True, I have to agree with this as well. Nullies have been a problem in Warframe for a long time now, making things less fun, less balanced and more tedious just by their presence. The fact that their shields can absorb both abilities and bullets is just ridiculous, and on top of that it isn't just blocking abilities, it's straight up dispelling them. Warframes like Chroma (who has to constantly re-cast a 100-energy-cost ability), and Inaros (who has to sacrifice tons of health because his scarab armor constantly gets removed), have it the worst at the moment. Though it's not limited to them, because Nullifiers are the incarnation of frustration to all frames.

It's completely crazy from a lore point of view too! How in the hell did the Corpus get the technology to block (and dispell) both void energies and the infestation? I mean if that's true, they should be able to straight-up murder most/all tenno right? Since we are basically made of infestaion and void stuff.

In short, I realize that this whole Nidus issue comes not from him or the nerfs made to him, but rather the fact that Nullifiers still remain horribly designed units and DE just reminded us that they are still here and as annoying as ever.

 

IIRC the Nullifiers, like most Corpus-tech, are based on Orokin technology developed after the Betrayal. Hence why Stalker has the ability to nullify Warframes too.

Nidus still has it easier than any other Warframe though when it comes to dealing with Nullifiers.

[VentiGlondi]

The best solution is to avoid corpus missions.

Which is something you should have done since U7.

[Top_Kekkonen]

I don't think there should be a flat second counter on the cancellation of buffs, there should be decay based on the abilites duration.

[IceColdHawk]

Apparently nidus is the god of warframe. He could almost instawin most missions by the press of a button. Hell, he was better than frost, nova, mirage and loki combined.

I'm exaggerating? I don't think so. Just look at how long DE needed to fix shield polarize, prism, bladestorm and the like. ^{or how they still haven't fixed mirage + simulor despite many threads.} And then look at how quickly they nerfed nidus.

Meanwhile we still have map disablers like resonating quake banshee or wukong who still has 3 useless abilites BUT god mode.

Man, what a funny day today. I'm legitimately speechless and laughing. I'm not even going to mention how illogical that nully thing is but yeah.

[Tizodd]

12 minutes ago, Top_Kekkonen said:

I don't think there should be a flat second counter on the cancellation of buffs, there should be decay based on the abilites duration.

I hear you and I agree ability cancellation sucks, but for certain abilities, it's really difficult to "decay" them.  Take the invisibility abilities for instance (Invisibility, Smoke Screen, and Prowl)...you're either invisible or you're not invisible.

As I'm typing this I think I realize what you mean...you mean to have the duration reduced (Invisibility/Smoke Screen); and power drain increased (Prowl) while inside the bubble?  That could work too.

In all honesty, if Nidus was treated like every other frame in the game, his stacks would completely disappear when entering a nullifier bubble.  People may see it as a nerf, but he's actually in a much better place than a lot of frames when it comes to nullifiers.  I just hope [DE] does something to put all abilities on an even playing field when they come in contact with a nullifier bubble.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Tizodd

[-N7-Leonhart]

On 1/6/2017 at 9:14 PM, Reedfish said:

if nidus needs a nerf so does inaros then

You are saying it like they are good only because of their HP....

Loads of frames have tons of defense, but I think the point here is that Nidus has really good defense and really good damage abilities.

I can understand a little what he is saying, there is basically no reason to not play Nidus, as things are now.

[NaeRyda]

On 06/01/2017 at 7:03 PM, Knight_Ex said:

FYI to get 100 stacks takes all but 3 minutes in some missions, his second ability followed with his first.....Id love to know the developers take on this.

"100 stacks takes all but 3 minutes" where and who hare the saints that allow you to do that?

"Id love to know the developers take on this." nerf it so people abuse 2->1 far more, 4 workings abilities? nah! too OP, cut it, if there were people complaining about players "abusing" and spamming 2 and 1 asking for nerf, from now on its pretty much what you will keep seeing.

[Xekrin]

2 hours ago, Tizodd said:

Some toggled abilities I didn't mention

You forgot Equinox's Night form ability with augment that slows enemies.  It takes some pretty fair time and some effort to max it out.  It would be nice if it didn't just go poof due to a single misstep.

It could like decay 3% per second or something.  Kinda the only one I care about lol.

Similar thread here, btw.  If any more pop up, someone might wanna merge.

 

[El_Diffablo]

when did they remove the ability to use nidus 4 to heal cryo extractors
i cant solo heiricon to 3 k cryo anymore

[PsiWarp]

31 minutes ago, El_Diffablo said:

when did they remove the ability to use nidus 4 to heal cryo extractors
i cant solo heiricon to 3 k cryo anymore

In 19.5.4. To be honest, it wasn't gonna last since Inaro's Scarab Swarm and Equinox's Mend used to be able to but quickly patched out.

[DUSTCLOUD]

39 minutes ago, El_Diffablo said:

when did they remove the ability to use nidus 4 to heal cryo extractors
i cant solo heiricon to 3 k cryo anymore

About a week and change earlier. Specifically they didnt like him healing "defense targets".
This includes the hostage, cryopods, and excavation terminals.

I think DE dislikes out of combat healing of pods and so on.
But there seems to be no issue with the Sancti Magistar or Equinox's ult healing any of the above lol.


I think someone also mentioned how they think nidus' nerf wasn't hard enough because his infested abilities didn't get nullified and lose all stacks instantly to a nullifier like equinox.
Understandable, but equinox can get back a million damage with maim with a few shots from a decent weapon.
The loss is trivial in contrast to building stacks for 10 minutes

Edited January 12, 2017 by DUSTCLOUD

[Inarticulate]

1 hour ago, Tizodd said:

In all honesty, if Nidus was treated like every other frame in the game, his stacks would completely disappear when entering a nullifier bubble.

Mutation is not a direct ability effect (not toggled by an ability, not summoned by an ability, not a proper top-right-hand-corner buff produced by an ability, not an activated ability on a duration, health, or stack ticker) and is more comparable to buffs like Health and Energy Conversion with the exception that it is innate to a Warframe and affected by that Warframe's abilities in particular. There is currently no precedent for how effects like this should behave so there is no behavior that it "should" have from that perspective.

[Tizodd]

27 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

Mutation is not a direct ability effect (not toggled by an ability, not summoned by an ability, not a proper top-right-hand-corner buff produced by an ability, not an activated ability on a duration, health, or stack ticker) and is more comparable to buffs like Health and Energy Conversion with the exception that it is innate to a Warframe and affected by that Warframe's abilities in particular. There is currently no precedent for how effects like this should behave so there is no behavior that it "should" have from that perspective.

[DE] put the buff counter in a different area of the screen, but that does not make Mutations entirely different from every other ability in the game.  I suspect they placed it there for aesthetic reasons (to add to Nidus' infested theme).

Mutation mechanics are not entirely different from other frame abilities.  Basically, Mutations are added based on damage done to enemies.

• Mesa's Ballistic Battery: Stores damage caused by guns. When triggered again, that damage is channeled through the next gunshot.
• Chroma's Vex Armor: When shields are hit, Chroma's armor grows stronger, when health takes a hit, weapon damage increases.  It's similar to Mutations in the sense that enemy interaction makes it stronger.
• Frost's Snow Globe and Rhino's Iron Skin have a period of invulnerability where they have health added to their totals...again, abilities that can be made stronger based on enemy interaction.
• Nyx's Absorb: Absorbs enemy damage, increasing the damage when released.

There are others as well.  Their counters may be in a different area of the screen, but the basic premise is similar (growing stronger based on enemy interaction).  So no, other abilities might not be exactly like Mutations verbatim, but there are definitely similarities.  Mutation is not some totally new idea.

I get the feeling you're disagreeing because you think I'm calling for more Nidus nerfs...I'm not.  What I'd like to see, is more abilities having similar treatment when it comes to Nullifier bubbles.  Currently afaik, Nidus is the only frame that doesn't completely lose his ability buff when a Nullifier bubble touches him.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Tizodd
typo

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Nezha and a Rhino are cool but everyone else doesn't need this treatment.

[DrBorris]

Duration abilities have it drain the duration 3x faster.

Abilities with HP (Iron Skin or Snow Globe for example) lose 20% of their HP per second.

Toggle abilities have their energy drain trippled, along with a 4 second cap when they will be dispelled.

 

You don't even have to make it on a per ability basis, just make it universal changes. Having some abilities affected differently than others makes things too complicated.

Nullifiers should have never been the end-all-be-all enemy, they need to be nerfed and have other more dynamic enemies added so that fighting Corpus does not feel like you are only fighting Nullifiers, but fighting an entire faction of enemies.

Edited January 12, 2017 by DrBorris

[Tizodd]

3 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Duration abilities have it drain the duration 3x faster.

Abilities with HP (Iron Skin or Snow Globe for example) lose 20% of their HP per second.

Toggle abilities have their energy drain trippled, along with a 4 second cap when they will be dispelled.

Not a bad way to simplify it.  I could work with this^.

[BalicBlackthorn]

I will not be spending any additional money on this game until the ravenous change at least is revoked, as that is just flipping stupid. I can see the undying change, the nullifier change I disagree with on the basis that nullifiers are a fun-killer for me for any frame with sustained abilities and they just added Nidus to that list, but I refuse to be a flipping maggot herder. Ravenous was fine.

I am just one player and I doubt they'll act on just my feedback, but I will cast my vote with my wallet and patronage nonetheless.

On a side note: Seriously DE, cut back on the nullifiers. Its not that they EXIST that's the issue, its that there is an endless horde of them in every non-exterminate corpus or void fissure mission.

[malekas]

I don't care about the rest of Nidus' nerf. They're fine, they won't affect his gameplay much, they're hardly noticeable. But I do care about the change to Ravenous.

 

Without the little wayward maggots being able to help us build stacks on their own, and us having to go chase them down just to get stacks from them, Ravenous barely feels worth the three stacks that you spend to cast it. You get a little bit of CC and healing, and maybe some stacks if everything works in your favor (ie. There's a lot of enemies in a tight group). It may have been a small change, but Ravenous took a big hit because of it, and I don't see myself casting it too much now.

[FollowTheFaceless]

13 minutes ago, BalicBlackthorn said:

I will not be spending any additional money on this game until the ravenous change at least is revoked, as that is just flipping stupid. I can see the undying change, the nullifier change I disagree with on the basis that nullifiers are a fun-killer for me for any frame with sustained abilities and they just added Nidus to that list, but I refuse to be a flipping maggot herder. Ravenous was fine.

I am just one player and I doubt they'll act on just my feedback, but I will cast my vote with my wallet and patronage nonetheless.

On a side note: Seriously DE, cut back on the nullifiers. Its not that they EXIST that's the issue, its that there is an endless horde of them in every non-exterminate corpus or void fissure mission.

The problem is not in nullifiers, rather that we don't have even a single countermeasure against them. They are somewhat supreme solution and in some way a lorebreaker, because they ultimately effective against any Tenno powers. I personally found it stupid for Tenno to ignore such a threat and let it be.

Edited January 12, 2017 by FollowTheFaceless

[KrazzyKracker]

On 1/6/2017 at 11:03 AM, Knight_Ex said:

I can't be the only person getting sick of seeing 2-3 nidus warframes running in every mission, lets break it down, Nidus is pretty much unkillable, he has insane amounts of damage, even if by some miracle he goes down so long as the person has 10 stacks they are auto revived, he can CC an entire room easily, gain insane amounts of damage reduction with his link, oh are those 10 bombards giving you trouble? just let me link to that corrupted ancient....there we go all better,  Fact of the matter being why run anything else since Nidus does most jobs perfectly, Tanking....check.....Damage....Check (With 100stacks his one can do up to 40k damage per hit and it hits multiple times), Buffing....Check.....Healing......sorta...his 4 can heal but not as effective as a trin, still if the people stay in range its unlikely they will go down.   So please someone come in here and tell me he doesn't need a rework and explain your logic behind it?  FYI to get 100 stacks takes all but 3 minutes in some missions, his second ability followed with his first.....Id love to know the developers take on this.

See this is why we cant have nice things in warframe the small but very loud minority comes out with its torches and pitchforks chanting NERF NERF NERF NERF.

[chofranc]

Obviously you need to use it if there are a lot of enemies, otherwise is not worth to use it, i rarely used ravenous before the fixes though.