For the love of god, please do something about Mirage + Synoid Simulor

[PatternistSlave]

15 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

e, I mean that the normal player has effectively been forced to leave so that they can enjoy themselves

WHAT MISSIONS ARE THESE??  For new players to participate in assassinate or exterminates they need to be in a group or on solo.  That's just how it is.  Has nothing to do with Mirage.  Why Mirage and not Ember?  Quite often someone will fail a spy vault while I'm on public and it's pretty annoying.  Do I start a thread saying all non-stealth frames should be removed?  Do I expect the game and everyone else to bend to my will or do I simply put it on solo?

[LuckyCharm]

5 hours ago, (Xbox One)Demon Intellect said:

Why just remove the weapon from the game, since you seem to want it nerfed to oblivion?

uhh what? i didnt say anything about removing it from the game, i just said I dont want my screen filled with glow. 1 is fine.. you only see one bombard rocket at once dont you?

[Doc-Orange]

I dont play Mirage and Simulor but I respect all styles of gameplay so....no nerf or remove, please!

[Acersecomic]

AoE on Simulor is too big, RoF on Simulor is too fast.
 There are many weapons with great potential for normal gameplay hindered by charge-up or crappy AoEs, and yet Simulor has the best of both worlds and is extremely annoying at that.
I've made it a point to outright leave defense missions with a Simulor in it because I can't be bothered to tolerate it any more. Just sucks the fun out of things and makes it annoying at that.

[YUNoJump]

9 hours ago, (Xbox One)Demon Intellect said:

I love it when people take things at face value it just shows how naive they are. What sounds better, we are nerfing in mirage to help with performance issues or we are nerfing in mirage because she is OP.

I'm not sure what your point is, either it was because she was OP because of performance, yes, but if it was because she is OP then I support that nerf too, and would support more suitable nerfs now, regarding Miragulor. Please refer to the thread I linked in the response you quoted. Nerfs to OP things aren't inherently bad just because of the nerf word.

[YUNoJump]

7 hours ago, Currilicious said:

And out come the Holy Crusades types.

When you argue about how no one's fun should be compromised, did you think about how a nerf will affect people that main a Mirage?

You can choose to leave a game if a Mirage nuking everything annoys you.

A nerf means people that likes Mirage gets the shaft whether they use the pew-pew-o'doom or not.

 

No one's fun should be compromised, in an ideal world, but as it stands there are many ways to play that may be fun for the user, but ruin OTHER peoples' fun. Miragulor is the best example. If we have to remove one playstyle in order for a lot of people to have more fun with whatever playstyle they want then I see that as a worthwhile compromise. And if you can't play Miragulor anymore when it's nerfed, just choose another build to enjoy. The thing about Miragulor is that it's a single build that removes fun from just about EVERY other build.

As for leaving the game, this point has been brought up dozens of times on this thread and people need to start actually adding to the argument when they say it, rather than just saying exactly what everyone else says without growth of the argument. Why should I have to leave a public lobby, where nobody has more rights than another, in order to enjoy the standard experience of the game, because another player wants to have fun in a way that removes mine? That's not fair on non-Miragulor players.

[YUNoJump]

7 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

WHAT MISSIONS ARE THESE??  For new players to participate in assassinate or exterminates they need to be in a group or on solo.  That's just how it is.  Has nothing to do with Mirage.  Why Mirage and not Ember?  Quite often someone will fail a spy vault while I'm on public and it's pretty annoying.  Do I start a thread saying all non-stealth frames should be removed?  Do I expect the game and everyone else to bend to my will or do I simply put it on solo?

Ember falls off at later levels far before Miragulor does, and even WoF doesn't guarantee the instant death of everything in a room, it hits enemies randomly throughout the room but not all at once. Yes, WoF is also a problem, but Miragulor is bigger. 

You're viewing the spy vault problem as if choice of frame is the only factor in performance, you need to read in to WHY that happens. Miragulor is the problem because mirage and the simulor synergise in a completely OP way to outpace any normal build. People fail spy vaults in public because they were detected through their own shortcomings, all spy vaults are possible (and most likely designed) to be doable with a non-stealth frame so the simple act of picking a non-stealth frame doesn't instantly ruin it. However, using Miragulor can only end with outpacing other players, because it is easy to use and only has one aspect to it, w+m1.

Should you expect everyone else to change so that you can have fun? if Miragulor players were the majority then no, but a Miragulor player that wipes the map ahead of everyone else is always the minority, the Miragulor user is only 25% of the squad, and even if there were 4 Miragulor users then one or two would probably still outpace the rest, as we saw in that screenshot earlier in the thread with 3 Miragulors and a Nidus. I support nerfs that would nerf a MINORITY group for the benefit of the MAJORITY, not the other way around.

[Chipputer]

On 1/11/2017 at 9:41 AM, KingNoobsta said:

Learn to beat Mirage rather than ranting for Nerfs. 

66 kills vs 62 kills, eh?

I'm sure it felt really good to slide spam with that Atterax through what I can only assume is a capture mission. Anybody who actually knows the game knows better than to be impressed by out of context screenshots, particularly when a low amount of enemies were involved, using weapons that have niches that make them outclass almost every other weapon in the game.

-------------

Mirage and S.Simulor are a problem, but there is currently no possible way to change either one that won't affect other players in an overall negative fashion.

[PatternistSlave]

1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

Ember falls off at later levels far before Miragulor does, and even WoF doesn't guarantee the instant death of everything in a room, it hits enemies randomly throughout the room but not all at once. Yes, WoF is also a problem, but Miragulor is bigger. 

You're viewing the spy vault problem as if choice of frame is the only factor in performance, you need to read in to WHY that happens. Miragulor is the problem because mirage and the simulor synergise in a completely OP way to outpace any normal build. People fail spy vaults in public because they were detected through their own shortcomings, all spy vaults are possible (and most likely designed) to be doable with a non-stealth frame so the simple act of picking a non-stealth frame doesn't instantly ruin it. However, using Miragulor can only end with outpacing other players, because it is easy to use and only has one aspect to it, w+m1.

Should you expect everyone else to change so that you can have fun? if Miragulor players were the majority then no, but a Miragulor player that wipes the map ahead of everyone else is always the minority, the Miragulor user is only 25% of the squad, and even if there were 4 Miragulor users then one or two would probably still outpace the rest, as we saw in that screenshot earlier in the thread with 3 Miragulors and a Nidus. I support nerfs that would nerf a MINORITY group for the benefit of the MAJORITY, not the other way around.

You refuse to answer my question.  WHAT MISSIONS.  What level missions?  Cause you're talking about star chart.  Mirage is supposed to have damage.  Which means she should be effective against lvl 100+ enemies. (she's really not btw.  Should be, but isn't.)  But you want her to not be able to kill level 20 enemies just so you can pretend you're as good as people who have been playing for longer than you and have more frames than you.

You will be outpaced by experienced players in missions.  Mirage or no Mirage.  Get over it.  I have every frame, but a slow pc and play with a controller.  I do about 2% dmg on exterminates generally.  Lots of times I don't even see the assassination target.  This is with me playing Mirage or Ember or whatever.  Do I give a crap?  If I did I could always just go solo, but you'll figure out most exterminates and a lot of assassinates are a joke anyway.

Stealth frames are simply better at spys.  (much like Ember is better at clearing exterminates)  Learn the game.  Play the game.  Get these frame for yourself.  See for yourself how silly you're being.  Quit thinking it's a competition.  Learn to be a teammate.

I had a friend who really liked Mirage.  Played her every game.  Know the only thing ever I was annoyed about her was?  How often I had to revive her.

[Volinus7]

Nerf Mirage and Simulor = Rob scythes and sickles from farmers

Peasant incursion is imminent.

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

8 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

uhh what? i didnt say anything about removing it from the game, i just said I dont want my screen filled with glow. 1 is fine.. you only see one bombard rocket at once dont you?

Bombards can have 2 to 3 rockets flying at you at the same time... And what you are suggesting is such a huge nerf to the gun it might as well be removed.

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

4 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

I'm not sure what your point is, either it was because she was OP because of performance, yes, but if it was because she is OP then I support that nerf too, and would support more suitable nerfs now, regarding Miragulor. Please refer to the thread I linked in the response you quoted. Nerfs to OP things aren't inherently bad just because of the nerf word.

The point was DE nerfed her because they wanted to not because it was too strenuous on people's PCs or consoles. People who think it was the latter are naive.

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

8 hours ago, Acersecomic said:

AoE on Simulor is too big, RoF on Simulor is too fast.
 There are many weapons with great potential for normal gameplay hindered by charge-up or crappy AoEs, and yet Simulor has the best of both worlds and is extremely annoying at that.
I've made it a point to outright leave defense missions with a Simulor in it because I can't be bothered to tolerate it any more. Just sucks the fun out of things and makes it annoying at that.

If combined with a mirage I agree. If you mean 1 person using it as any frame besides mirage then you are just a cry baby. 

[KingNoobsta]

5 hours ago, Chipputer said:

66 kills vs 62 kills, eh?

I'm sure it felt really good to slide spam with that Atterax through what I can only assume is a capture mission. Anybody who actually knows the game knows better than to be impressed by out of context screenshots, particularly when a low amount of enemies were involved, using weapons that have niches that make them outclass almost every other weapon in the game.

-------------

Mirage and S.Simulor are a problem, but there is currently no possible way to change either one that won't affect other players in an overall negative fashion.

Keep ranting my friend. Keep comparing warframes with each other. Dont understand that each warframe is unique. Dont build up your skill set. Just cry for nerfs and Nerf what you cant compete with. 

[Eljureo]

Lol I never tried this combo before.... I will tonight, when I get home.

[Cynaren]

Please.... Don't nerf the simulor. I use that for most corpus missions. Why have you people not learned.... Don't start every discussion with a nerf call,and likewise don't start complaining after they nerf it. 

Think about the solo players too. 

Just reduce the orb sizes or incorporate neutral energy color like the new Frost globe textures. 

Edited January 14, 2017 by Cynaren

[DEATHLOK]

I would like to point out the options to Abort Mission and play with Friends Only. More often than not, your game gets ruined because you let it get ruined.

I'm pretty quick to abort missions eclipsed by rushers, myself. I'll just bug out until I find a group that works.

This thread would have been about Ash a couple months ago. The community falls into a predicable bloodthirsty cycle every few months, demanding yet another Warframe or weapon be sacrificed, as it's ruining their "fun." Someone at DE gets aggravated enough to drop a tactical nuke on the offending material, the community rejoices, laments, and fights a while. Then the bloodlust returns, focused on something else that is ruining someone's "fun."

A crippling lack of balance runs throughout the game, and this is likely the root cause. The community, and the tendency of DE to overreact, makes the situation worse.

This thread is depressing, because the last time I read something like this, Ash was wrecked, and that was a frame I enjoyed once in a while. I no longer play it. The same will happen with Mirage in the near future. I don't use Mirage, but I can understand why some enjoy it. I don't feel the need to take that away from anyone, as I can quit any mission that doesn't feel right and get a different group in short order.

I am thankful that one of my favorite frames isn't this cycle's sacrificial lamb, but the cycle doesn't end.

Edited January 14, 2017 by DEATHLOK

[(XBOX)Kuhl MC]

On ‎11‎.‎01‎.‎2017 at 3:38 PM, Ciaus said:

I think overall Mirage is fine.
Overall the simulor is dumb but not too big. 
It's the interaction between the two.

Whenever I'm struggling with something, I go "screwit" and ezmode it with miragulor. Every time I join a public game below sortie level and there's a simulor mirage, I just meditate and leave at 5. Because there is no point. It's not a game, it's "watch everything on the map disappear before it enters vision while someone uses a click macro and makes a sammich".

 

Miragulor ;-)

[(XBOX)BluAina]

Why?

[LuckyCharm]

8 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

This thread is depressing, because the last time I read something like this, Ash was wrecked, and that was a frame I enjoyed once in a while. I no longer play it. The same will happen with Mirage in the near future. I don't use Mirage, but I can understand why some enjoy it. I don't feel the need to take that away from anyone, as I can quit any mission that doesn't feel right and get a different group in short order.

This is true, and after trying mirage with simulor I see how it can be fun to play... for the person using it. Being fun to play with? Well that's really depending on whether or not you want to do any killing that mission, or if you'd rather just revive the mirage when shes inevitably going to down. Don't get me wrong, I do have a mirage and a forma'd simulor that I can do this on... and have when I was bored for that days sortie. But all that I'd find necessary to fix her is the option to turn off allies projectile animations and turn off allies sounds. 

It's one thing to have someone kill all the enemies. Quite another to have that same person kill my fps and host migrate anyone who has a slower computer while they do so. That and hear PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW over and over. 

[(XBOX)Kuhl MC]

On ‎11‎.‎01‎.‎2017 at 4:05 PM, ultragen said:

Don't know about you guys but I recently got Mirage and Synoid Simulor and I really LOVE them. But I like Mirage as a warframe too. She is fast, she is tricky, she is beautiful and she is deadly... I understand the frustration of having a Mirage+Simulor player in your group for a fissure run as you just run behind her collecting reactants but I do not let it break my game. I have played with embers that the moment they entered the mission started WoF and never stopped it until we extracted. I have been on equinox wreaking havoc on entire maps and getting x3 kills from both my other two team members. No-one complained! I did not complain either when I was the "victim". If I do not like it, I extract on first chance and go back with a fresh team and so on.

Went on a dark sector defense with Mirage+Simulor. At first I was wrecking everything with the simulor but I got bored and thought that my team mates would get bored too, so I switched to melee and had so much fun with it... Then we started going to higher levels, so after wave 15, the simulor was out again... Two times I stopped moving and almost died... She is a glass cannon, that's her deal and I love her for that... I do not think that there is a need for a nerf, just some logical thinking from the player community...

Agreed. It may be annoying, but nerfing the frame would just bring the attention to another great combo; in the end, the whole game will be nerfed to oblivion. Look, how it feels to play Destiny nowadays, where they nerfed all the weapons so hard in order to "balance" their cursed PvP (a goal, they never achieved, by the way), that everything is boring as hell and underpowered in PvE. Having reached this state is the end for a grind game in my opinion. I don't want to see the same happen to Warframe...

[Doc-Orange]

9 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Kuhl MC said:

Agreed. It may be annoying, but nerfing the frame would just bring the attention to another great combo; in the end, the whole game will be nerfed to oblivion. Look, how it feels to play Destiny nowadays, where they nerfed all the weapons so hard in order to "balance" their cursed PvP (a goal, they never achieved, by the way), that everything is boring as hell and underpowered in PvE. Having reached this state is the end for a grind game in my opinion. I don't want to see the same happen to Warframe...

This was the reason why I stopped playing Destiny after 800h!

[Currilicious]

 

10 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

No one's fun should be compromised, in an ideal world, but as it stands there are many ways to play that may be fun for the user, but ruin OTHER peoples' fun. Miragulor is the best example. If we have to remove one playstyle in order for a lot of people to have more fun with whatever playstyle they want then I see that as a worthwhile compromise. And if you can't play Miragulor anymore when it's nerfed, just choose another build to enjoy. The thing about Miragulor is that it's a single build that removes fun from just about EVERY other build.

As for leaving the game, this point has been brought up dozens of times on this thread and people need to start actually adding to the argument when they say it, rather than just saying exactly what everyone else says without growth of the argument. Why should I have to leave a public lobby, where nobody has more rights than another, in order to enjoy the standard experience of the game, because another player wants to have fun in a way that removes mine? That's not fair on non-Miragulor players.

I really couldn't care less what these guys with the simulor do. I know what a public game means and I accept that instead of whining about how some other random person isn't playing by my standards. If I don't like what I'm seeing I bail. Plain and simple. I do not go around with pitchforks demanding things be changed, across the board, affecting even those that did not cross me, so that I do not have to click on that "Abort" button.

I am now adding to the argument here, just click on the Abort button, it's there for a reason. Use it. I do.

I guess I do not feel that entitled to everything like some people do.

*shrugs*

[AzothCrow]

I'm one of the few players that enjoys playing mirage without the simulator, and to be honest I don't think I'd ever call her "top tier" without it. I don't want to see her nerfed to banshee or hydroid levels because some players are upset about 1 weapon combination. 

[YUNoJump]

11 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

You refuse to answer my question.  WHAT MISSIONS.  What level missions?  Cause you're talking about star chart.  

On any difficulty a player might want to play public, maybe a rank 1 guy with a Braton and a Furis is trying to enjoy a mission that people rarely play but a Miragulor is there to farm resources, maybe its an Axi fissure that someone is trying to enjoy farming but a Miragulor user keeps showing up to do the same thing and they can't find another squad through Public matchmaking. Maybe it's a Sortie that is too difficult to reasonably solo, but not many people are interested in doing the sortie that day, or have already done it, so getting a squad together in Recruiting won't happen. There are a lot of reasons for some one to not be able to find a squad outside of Public, and a Miragulor shouldn't be some everpresent caveat towards meeting people in a public space.

11 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Mirage is supposed to have damage.  Which means she should be effective against lvl 100+ enemies.

Well generally I find that weapon damage is the main factor in fighting level 100+ enemies, with abilities augmenting that. Hall of Mirrors puts out buffed weapon damage regardless of what weapon you use, especially with Hall of Malevolence. And Prism is a powerful LoS stun. She's much more effective against level 100, at least as a glass cannon, than a lot of other Warframes.

11 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

But you want her to not be able to kill level 20 enemies just so you can pretend you're as good as people who have been playing for longer than you and have more frames than you.

I don't think I EVER said that Mirage should be nerfed that much, or even if I wanted Mirage alone nerfed. What I HAVE said is that Miragulor should be nerfed by not allowing clone SImulor shots to combine with True Mirage Simulor shots and other clones' shots, so that the nerf ONLY affects Miragulor, not any other use of the two items at all. Please make sure what you're accusing me of is actually true before you accuse me.

11 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

You will be outpaced by experienced players in missions.  Mirage or no Mirage.  Get over it.

That's not my point, in fact your analogy is the exact opposite of my point. My point is that Miragulor outpaces average players and builds WITHOUT skill, in fact Miragulor has pretty much no way to improve it through skill at all. You click, it creates an explosion in front of you, you can do that incredibly fast and while moving at normal pace. You literally don't need to aim AT ALL, not even a tiny bit. Skill isn't what causes the problem, its the fact that the build is ridiculously broken and rewards cheese over thought and skill.

11 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Stealth frames are simply better at spys.  (much like Ember is better at clearing exterminates)

I'm not sure what you mean by this, yes stealth frames are better at spy, i agree, but my point was that there is a difference between a build being good at completing a task, and a build being good at completing a task WHILE PREVENTING OTHERS FROM BEING ABLE TO DO SO. That is the difference between stealth frames and Miragulor.

11 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Quit thinking it's a competition.  Learn to be a teammate.

A team is not 1 person taking all of the tasks and then 3 people trying to help but being unable to. A team works as a group to accomplish their tasks together. If my role on the team is just to hack the lockdown panel when the Miragulor user breaks open some glass, then I have a problem with how the team is working. 

Edited January 14, 2017 by YUNoJump
Rewrote a response to make it a bit sharper