The Second Stream Podcast: Sorties & Ayatan, Corpus Spear, Secura Lecta, Syn Assassination

[Trichouette]

I like to participate to the poll but i'm not familiar with this "the second stream podcast" thing DE has been doing. Can anyone tell me what this is all about ?

 

I tried listening 1min because I saw "token system" in the comments and I'm just facepalming at what they're saying...

[Szaeravar]

AYATAN IN SORTIES

I haven't actually sold any of my ayatan sculptures, but I guess I might have to start doing that with some of those I don't like so I can keep up with my endo supply. >,>

I can't actually say this is a negative though, since it's more Endo AND it's flexible (decoration or Endo, your call).

CORPUS SPEAR GUN

Won't have an opinion until I see the stats and try it out. The Javlok sounds cool but has insignificant damage for its clunky mechanics, the throw is not worth it, no AOE on the primary fire, small magazine with long reload. 

[Chroia]

1. Do you like the idea of getting a new Ayatan sculpture instead of 2k Endo as a Sortie reward?

> Other

I don't care. It makes exactly no difference to me.
I don't trade statues, I don't melt statues, they just sit in my inv.
And if I need endo, guess what? I'll go out and farm it - and get better endo-per-time to boot. *shrug*

2. What's your first impression of the new Corpus Spear Gun?

> Looks fun.

I like the opticor shot's visual/mechanical aesthetic, and the tether gives it some utility, which is nice.
I don't expect to it actually be particularly useful, but that (read: stats) is a different problem.

3. Do you use the Secura Lecta to farm credits?

> No, rarely/never

4. What's your first impression of the clan-based enemy cells & "Kingpins"?

> Not sure yet / need more information.

5. How much time do you think you'll spend using the Bard 'Frame's music synthesizer?

> Some.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Chroia

[ChuckMaverick]

I actually misinterpreted the 2k endo / Ayatan sculpture item in the Devstream.

I thought the 2k endo was going to be removed from the drop table entirely, and instead the Ayatan sculpture worth 2k+ endo would be able to be found in the sortie missions like the normal sculptures, in addition to whatever reward you roll.

I prefer my version. 

[AdunSaveMe]

4 hours ago, Trichouette said:

Funny I didn't remember geting a notification of you quoting me...

I call it mastery fodder because I saw what happened to the previous speargun.

It was one of the few things I was looking forward to obtain and the wonky mechanic and stupid self damage (and the insane wait before they released it) just disappointed me a lot. So no I don't care about the next one and it'll just be mastery fodder, like the ohma. (I mean, to me, I'm not saying the weapon will be bad or anything)

Not liking a weapon doesn't make it mastery fodder either, it just makes it a weapon you don't like.

But your reasoning is certainly fairer than "it doesn't do the most damage so it's mastery fodder", which is kind of what I assumed you meant, since that's how people almost always use the term.

[AdunSaveMe]

9 hours ago, shadow0727 said:

if i recall, they did note that the tone/strength of the beat would affect the amount of damage it did, not that all notes would do the same amount of damage (although the max damage from the skill wouldnt change)

What you may be referring to is the mention of sparser beats doing bigger bursts of damage, while short quick beats do a lot of fast small damage.

[Krion112]

Syndicate Assassination

At the risk of sounding sarcastic, but um... oh boy, guys, look, another system! Aren't we all excited to see another new system get put in place? I mean, gosh, didn't we all just love the execution of Archwing, Conclave, Trials, Arcanes, Sorties, Focus, Rivens, and any other of the recently included systems? Haven't they all just been absolutely, splendidly perfect?

/Sarcasm

No, DE, I am not excited for or interested in this proposed system. What does it do to fix all the other massive, glaring issues the game has? Based on what I've heard of the system, and no doubt based upon previous actions, it won't do anything but add another section onto the 'roller coaster'. I'll make a prediction, and we'll see how right I am:

Let me guess, we pursue a crime cell for an hour or so, doing some kind of arbitrary tracking down of some kind of Syndicate boss, which pretty much will be narrowed down to something not dissimilar to the Index or Rathuum, but grinding it over and over again, or possibly even somehow buying into it with platinum to cut right to the chase. Then, I fight a boss, who is either of archetype A, in which they're a complete pushover and definitely not a challenge, archetype B, protected behind cheap invincibility phases or bullet-sponge amounts of health or armor, or archetype C, designed to pseudo-simulate 'challenge' through the use of constant stun-locking attacks or abilities which are obviously not fair to the player. Then, once they're defeated, I'm given something randomly selected from a large pool of rewards, gating something that'll probably be mandatory by the time of their implementation, but that getting that useful item is put at a lower percentage, compared to the gratuitous amounts of Endo, Credit, or irrelevant Mod 'rewards'. Then we do it all over again, wondering if and when this will finally be a satisfactory experience, but unfortunately it won't, and never will, be satisfactory.

If it's based around clans, that already excludes me, because I'm a lone Tenno, so I already having something new to not do.

I plead to you, DE; drop this asinine cycle of adding completely unnecessary things when there's other devices that need revision and improvement. Invest more time and resources into those things, and stop adding unnecessary systems that have only further made hollow the solid design that Warframe established before. New Weapons, New Warframes, and New Cosmetics are fine, but entire systems that don't do anything to improve or enhance the core game-play, which has suffered long enough, are completely unacceptable at this point.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Krion112

[Sziklamester]

I have the same experiences with javlok in aesthetic a real jaffa kree weapon but the primary fire has no aoe and there is a really little chance to hit the enemy. I have the same feeling about the corpus version and that won't be any better. The damage wise is okay for them I guess but if you need to aim perfectly in the middle to hit something then it is not fun. 

About the others I wrote my opinion just those threads lost in time.

Also agreeing with Krion112.

 

 

[Cray]

Ayatan: Voted 'other'.

 

Sorties are a source of Endo for me, and I don't melt down sculptures. I still have every single sculpture I've ever found. While it'll be cool to get this fancy trophy, it means my endo income is going to plummet, and I'll have to spend a lot more time on Heiracon now.

 

All because I would prefer to keep the shiny...

[Trichouette]

7 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Not liking a weapon doesn't make it mastery fodder either, it just makes it a weapon you don't like.

But your reasoning is certainly fairer than "it doesn't do the most damage so it's mastery fodder", which is kind of what I assumed you meant, since that's how people almost always use the term.

Well if you don't use a weapon for anything else than mastery exp, it is a mastery fodder to you.

As I said the weapon mechanic is awfully made, therefore I consider it mastery fodder.

(a fire ball that doesn't deal AOE damage... wut ?)

[Kronxito]

About new sortie's ayatan sculpture. I think 3 high level missions are worth enough for 4000 endo spam instead of 2000. OR an ayatan sculpture which value is 4000 endo.

What I would set as a reward instead of 2000 endo is:  A small chance of getting a rare/event mod. This would be good for new players who will have a way for getting them because actually you only can get them by trading with platinum/primed parts and they are really expensive.

Edited January 24, 2017 by ArionLightning

[(XBOX)Dr Desflurane]

The problem with the Ayatan as a sortie reward is that there is only one.  One will get stale very fast once the new, I need to have it factor is gone (~1week).   If you had, say, ten new ones you would have something to work towards. All in all It's a good idea but I feel it will fail under the current implementation.

[GrayArchon]

13 hours ago, Krion112 said:

At the risk of sounding sarcastic, but um... oh boy, guys, look, another system! Aren't we all excited to see another new system get put in place? I mean, gosh, didn't we all just love the execution of Archwing, Conclave, Trials, Sorties, Focus, Rivens, and any other of the recently included systems? Haven't they all just been absolutely, splendidly perfect?

/Sarcasm

No, DE, I am not excited for or interested in this proposed system. What does it do to fix all the other massive, glaring issues the game has? Based on what I've heard of the system, and no doubt based upon previous actions, it won't do anything but add another section onto the 'roller coaster'.

As far as I understand DE's previous comments, they need to add new content at a high rate to attract new players, and this supersedes fixing old systems in importance. Attracting new players will always be more important than retaining players, for any game design company (cf Mark Rosewater's various remarks about Magic: the Gathering on his podcast). DE has pointed to data in the past showing that new membership spikes during events. Even their last major revamp of an existing system (Starchart 3.0) was done to facilitate the new player experience. Business interests dictate priorities; it's a simple reality.

I only hope that enough new players will bring them enough revenue such that they can start focusing on fixing older systems, because I really would like to see the neglected/broken parts of this game given new life.

[Krion112]

Just now, GrayArchon said:

As far as I understand DE's previous comments, they need to add new content at a high rate to attract new players, and this supersedes fixing old systems in importance. Attracting new players will always be more important than retaining players, for any game design company (cf Mark Rosewater's various remarks about Magic: the Gathering on his podcast). DE has pointed to data in the past showing that new membership spikes during events. Even their last major revamp of an existing system (Starchart 3.0) was done to facilitate the new player experience. Business interests dictate priorities; it's a simple reality.

I only hope that enough new players will bring them enough revenue such that they can start focusing on fixing older systems, because I really would like to see the neglected/broken parts of this game given new life.

This is not a sustainable business plan; screwing over old systems in favor of new ones drives players away, and eventually cultivates a reputation, which will convince new players not to join at all. Once we see that the cycle of disatisfaction just keeps going over and over again, veteran players will stop coming back, stop spending platinum, and stop recommending the game, which will also halt drawing in new players.

New content does not equal a good game, and a bad game will bleed out faster. I understand DE needs to add something for cash flow, but it can't continue being these hollow systems. Also, reworks have also brought back old players and attracted new players, as we all just return en masse for major updates, so saying that new content is the sole maker of revenue and attractor of players is false.

[(PSN)Diresins]

1.) I do like the idea of the Ayatan Sculpture, and I am also glad you are replacing Endo as a Sortie reward. However, I still feel like Endo should be acquired elsewhere, maybe through conclave or something; I just don't feel like the Endo should be a Sortie reward.

3.) I chose no for this question; ergo, I wish there were a mod that we could equip to a weapon, or item, that would increase credit drop instead of having it restricted to just one weapon.

Thanks for all the great work and cool stuff DE!

Edited January 25, 2017 by (PS4)Diresins

[Chroia]

You may have noticed the brevity of my reply.

20 minutes shorter than usual or not, I found this stream sorely lacking 'meat' to sink my teeth into.
Part of this is the stream being a 'Devstream reactions' stream to a devstream that was fairly light on meaty topics, part of it's the topics (not) broached (no discussion of Archwing sortie missions? Really? or heck, even just Infested Salvage - potentially tangenting into JV), part of it may be the guests' personal perspectives, or perhaps hesitance to raise a dissenting voice - this I can't speak to, part of it being that the subjects presented are either purely (literally) cosmetic, or lacking in substance.

 

That said, I've given it another listen, and I'll see what I can do.

Did Rivens save sorties?
I play Sorties. Pretty much always, if I'm home.
Unless it's an unbearably tedious set, I always play them - regardless of reward / sortie season completion - because I enjoy the change of pace; the monkey wrench they throw into my automatic arsenal choices, the mental puzzle of 'solving' the mission/restriction.

Also, until Kuva Flood, they were the highest level content available, outside of Raids.

So, did Rivens save sorties?
Personally, no. They've made no difference to the 'call to action' to play the sortie.
And I loathe and despise their implementation, which is a different issue.

 

2k Ayatans -
From a broad perspective, making the reward a sculpture instead of endo makes it tradeable (which was impossible with endo, and prohibitively trade-intensive as cores), and upp-able past 2k (idk how much) with stars (idk which and how many).
There is merit to this.

As far as the actual reward goes, it being an Ayatan rather than straight endo is purely a question of presentation.
This is a viable solution if it addresses the underlying issue.
Does it?

People who need the endo won't care (since the credit cost's removed from Maroo. The unskipable dialogue, though, is still an inconvenience).
People who don't like getting the "trash" reward of the (common) droptable are unaffected. 2k Ayatans are still 2k, and still a missed Riven/booster/leg core.
People who don't consider 2k endo to be worth the time spent (see: Repeatedly shortening the endless missions) are still accurately saying you'd be better off just doing the 'normal' content. Forget even talking about Lenses, for a person who doesn't need them.

Personally? As far as I'm concerned, all you've done is stopped the 2k endo being easily usable. Not an improvement.

 

Too much time with too little substance about the upcoming Corpus Speargun.

No one mentions that giving the Nullifier drones scaling HP potentially moots implementing them.
They need protection from AoEs so they can actually exist, true. But giving them scaling HP potentially puts them outside the range of 1-2 shotting with a precision weapon, particularly if they're un-crittable.
This means that it'd still be more efficient to just burst down the bubble, rather than bothering messing with the drone.
Glad that Rebecca does, eventually, raise this. And Crackle2012 does subsequently lightly touch on it.

That said, good catch about Drones being redeployable or not.

 

OF COURSE they can have an opinion on the credit economy.
Yes, Secura Lecta isn't something a brand-new player will have. Alright, sure.
But even someone who isn't a new player should be able to tell you that starter missions grant 1k credits, max level give ~4.5k, and Akkad gives 22k+.
I wonder why people double down on Secura Lecta and Akkad...?
New players have a huge credit wall to climb; for crafting for MR, for upgrading mods, to build a Sentinel (or, Lotus forbid, upkeep a companion), etc. - which is fine, in and of itself it gives them something to work toward.
But that causes a huge disparity in progress (and progression, because you're best off getting a taxi to Akkad and unlocking it asap - and ignoring of any of the rest of the star chart), between players who know/ask what to do, and those who don't.

So, here's a question:
People who use the Secura Lecta - do they use it specifically in farming missions, or just generally.
Because I might be mistaken, but it seems that me that, as if the delta between new players isn't enough, by tying the credit gain to MR, you're actively courting huge stockpiles among "endgame" players - which is the very thing that - for instance - the Hema, Sibear, Knux, et al. - were costed to combat.
And all this is ignoring the fact that this (among other things) actively devalues the time players I have already spent in preemptively farming, because 'what have you done for me recently?'
Time players spent farming before, is time they're not spending populating the game/nodes now.
Because that's a whole different issue. (And is also re: Steve's talk about 'respecting players' investment'.)

 

Syn assassinations:
Others have raised - concern that it'll just end up being Community Simaris targets-lite.
Also, Crackle2012 does mention solo clans (and Reb mentions scaling to clan size).

But this, in conjunction with the Hema, raises a fundamental issue:
In the same vein as my repeated 'what is Warframe intended to be?' - What is the purpose of clans?
I'm not talking about 'what content are you implementing for clans', I'm asking about their actual intended purpose.
Are clans intended to be a social or gameplay aspect?
The current implementation of Clan tiers, and research scaling indicates that they're primarily for research or zerging Dark Sectors, with things like the Hema cost aggressively promoting kicking inactive players, regardless of any social value they may add.
Further, they promote going as small as is viable, for the same reason.

Is this what you have in mind for clans? If not, really you might want to do something about the problems the underlying architecture causes before you (can) start working on "making clans great again".

All the rest is cosmetic, though it was interesting to hear what/that Drew had to say about Tennogen.

-----

Also, +1 to Krion112's posts.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Chroia

[Mak_Gohae]

1- im not a super hardcore playing so im not flowing with endo. This change means little to me. I guess its cool to get a free decoration.

2- the shock gimmick is interesting but need more info on what can be done with them and mods. So far it looks like a sniper rifle with a special ability

3- been trying to trade for it and no takers. Now it's all about the plat for it. I guess ill if i go for that syndicate. 

4- When you guys said the Wire i got completely lost because this game has NOTHING that comes close to doing any sort of investigation. i guess you mean stealth mission where you have to scan stuff without being seen? Or is this just a chasing capture target to slowly open up the kingpin and eventually fight him?

5- it depends on how annoying it is. At first i will probably just go to play the frame and then slowly build on it.

[Hydroxate]

15 hours ago, Chroia said:

part of it may be the guests' personal perspectives, or perhaps hesitance to raise a dissenting voice - this I can't speak to, part of it being that the subjects presented are either purely (literally) cosmetic, or lacking in substance.

That's what we're invited to do, just provide a personal opinion of what was up for discussion. Personally, what I do is fashionframe so that part is always what I love most. That and mechanics and design. So some things such as archwing in sorties isnt really what I do! Some may think we're not raising a dissenting voice, it just depends on what we're asked! I'm pretty optimistic naturally, so I don't really dwell on negative things, that doesn't mean that I ignore that there are things wrong with the game though. Now if Sapping Ospreys came up......

[Chroia]

22 hours ago, Hydroxate said:

Personally, what I do is fashionframe so that part is always what I love most. That and mechanics and design. So some things such as archwing in sorties isnt really what I do! Some may think we're not raising a dissenting voice, it just depends on what we're asked!

Oh, I wasn't criticizing... well, no, I was, but it was intended more as an observation than a... idk, diss?
Part of it is that the streams could do with some considered tailoring of the topics and guests to each other - which is certainly easier said than done, and unlikely to come to much as long as the stream remains 'react to whatever happens to have been on the devstream'.

Everyone has the things they're interested in, grounded in, passionate about, etc.
For example - you talked about fashionframe, which is both expected/appropriate and perfectly fine. I certainly wouldn't have had as much to say on the topic had it been me.
But (I think. Might be wrong.) there's just not much for room for 'interesting to listen to' discussion in that, between being personal/subjective - and the discussion itself being 'react to this', not 'critique this'.

On the other hand, take the Secura Lecta bit.
You talked about the credit economy in new player experience (which I was glad to hear mentioned, and hadn't expected), but the conversation didn't go any deeper than that.
If - just to draw a totally random name out of a hat - TGDM had been one of the guests, I'd expect a comprehensively detailed list of credit sources and changes affecting them over the last 2+ years. Because that's (some of) what he does.
If, alternatively -and again, totally pulling a name out of a hat - AGGP were a guest, I'd expect a gushing endorsement and not much else, since quite simply, the credit economy and NPE are not his 'thing', as far as I know.

And, as you say, Sapping Ospreys didn't come up.

(p.s. Glad to hear you don't feel constrained from raising a dissenting voice.)

 

Edited January 27, 2017 by Chroia