Certain AoE Weapons/Frames are enjoyment-vacuums. AKA, having to play against your squad isn't fun.

[Xzorn]

5 hours ago, Reifnir said:

And yet, no one is screaming apocalypse just because a geared, high-paragon character can enter a low-torment game and kill everything on screen (or even several screens) just by walking in that direction. Yes, Warframe does not have any meaningful content to match our current power level. We're stuck at Torment-6 with GR-70 capable gear, so to speak. But that does NOT, in any way, shape or form mean that we have to nerf everything back into Stone Age, it simply means DE needs to snap out of adding useless gimmicks and start adding proper, challenging content. 

I agree. We don't need to nerf much of anything. It only serves to delay the problem further until the next big thing comes out.

They need to rework scaling so it's not such a gimmick going into these higher levels just to make use of our damage output and we need easier access to those levels. For the past 3 years it seems that DE uses one-shots and time investment as a deterrent for players who seek higher content which is not only unfair but insulting. They knew about enemy damage scaling 3 years ago yet they've done nothing but make worse offenders *Waves at Scorcher*.

Enemy scaling is a natural counter to Power Creep and yet they seem to ignore it's potential.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Xzorn

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

This game would be so much better if De got rid of the damage recap. That orange number just drives PVE players crazy, because deep down they are so competitive. I didn't get the most kills, well let's see who get's to extraction first. Cue the Benny Hill theme. It's always devolves into who can stay ahead of the others when killing any Ai enemy in any PVE game type, especially when the developers throw in XP. This was called the death race in  the Halo forums concerning PUG campaign and FireFight missions. When I see those combinations like Mirage+Synoid Simulor combo, I just fall into resource farm mode. They may get the winning number at the end, but I can build whatever I want plus walk out with a Ayatan Statue everytime due to falling behind and going into chill mode. It's just what happens in PUGs. The sad part is those weapons are essential for survival in Sorties, so nerf them, or nerf sorties? Because as soon as they are nerfed, it's right back to the nerfing of the Soma Prime. Kinda reminds me of the movie "It Follows" the monster just works it way down the line of cursed teenagers till it killed them all. Only it's weapons and frames in this case.

[Jackviator]

30 minutes ago, JalakBali said:

A playstyle you opt into by going into Public games. If you hope to fight enemies, why not Friends Only or pre-form a group?

Because it's a band-aid to the real problem. In addition, recruit chat takes too long to find people in (and it's not like I can control what anyone from there is using), my friends and clan won't always be online or able to help me, and running solo gimps my survivability.

 

30 minutes ago, JalakBali said:

What if you get into a non-AoE group but one guy is just so good at shooting he shot all the enemies before anyone else could? Ban that guy too?

At least that can be solved with liberal application of "git gud." But no amount of git gud will allow one to kill enemies that are already dead, because an AoE user waltzed into the same room as you.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Jackviator

[Soketsu]

On 29/01/2017 at 11:52 AM, Reifnir said:

Yeah?

Let's turn this around and see how you like it.

Ahem.

 

I think that boring, low fire rate and little to no AoE weapons ruin the game experience and turn a fun horde shooter into a horribly unbalanced tactical shooter-wannabe that it actually isn't. Whenever I see people armed with Lex, Vectis, Buzlok, Sybaris or other underperforming single-target junk I want to kick them out from the group, because in most cases they won't contribute much (if at all) to the glorious carnage that makes the essence of Warframe. I propose to turn ALL weapons into AoE death machines, so that subpar, boring weapons that ruin the experience for me would start shooting homing, piercing projectiles that annihilate anything in one room and fly into the adjacent ones to continue killing stuff. 

Sounds fun? 

And who the Hek gave you the idea that you get to decide what is fun for me and everyone else? 

If you enjoy running Exterminate missions with unranked Excalibur and Braton MK-1 - by all means, play it solo or invite like-minded friends, but for some people, believe it or not, melting entire rooms just by looking in that direction is FUN. So is speed-running Exterminate/Crossfire runs or efficiently farming resources in starchart endless missions.

TL:DR; You don't get to decide what fun is for everyone. If melting hordes isn't fun for you and playing Invite Only isn't an option, maybe it's time to start looking for another game. Because Warframe is not (and is highly unlikely to ever become) a "tactical skill based shooter" you want it to be. It's a horde-slaying game and saying that efficient slaughter is bad in a horde-slayer is like playing Diablo with just the auto-attacks. 

 

 

P.S.: How come no one is crying to nerf Volt? That horrid frame can kill enemies just by running past them at breakneck speed with Shocking Speed mod equipped! The arrogance!  /sarcasm

This guys deserve a medal, but don't push yourself too much for this guy, he will never change his mind.

 

For you OP, instead of nerfing everything you don't like to the ground; I propose you 2 other solution who allow you to not fight every people who hate nerf/ having to waste 10 min for a single extermination mission (since we don't have time with all this RNG and for some, our real life) :

- Bring back conclave point : "OP" weapon have higher conclave rating and therefore you won't be matched with them AND they might fight "stronger" foe (even if a weapon lvl 60+ will have the same effect on a lvl 30 foe and a lvl 40)

- Separate the Pub Matchmaking in 2 categories : Rush / Exploration

Rush : All weapon allowed, designed for thos who want to clean the mission swiftly

Exploration : AOE weapon/spell reduced/ forbidden, designed for those who want to take their time and having something to shot on.

 

Please, remember what you consider to be fun / unfun is may be not what the other thinks, it won't be you who get the hate if DE do what you suggest.

I miss this old time where when you wanted to do something in higher level you create your own team and you blame only yourself when we take a pick up who don't get the job done.

---

[(XBOX)Skode]

DE should nerf the cheese as they've done so before with Saryn, Mag and Mesa because they were one button winners... They should not nerf them because of others fun factor (fun is subjective) but because they're brainless in being reward at no risk.

If we're were talking fun think of new players who get some MR12+ showing up and cleaning an entire file without them being able to land a single MK-1 arrow just because the higher ranked player couldn't be bothered. He's had his fun on earth, you can get yours another time, YOUR time not his...

[Reifnir]

32 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Skode said:

DE should nerf the cheese as they've done so before with Saryn, Mag and Mesa because they were one button winners...

Objection, Saryn is still a 1-button frame, except now she needs more formas to squeeze +Duration in, and instead of 4 you spam 1. 

Mesa is still a frame that kills everything she sees, with a downside of needing energy restores between Peacemaker sessions now, because you need to recast it every couple seconds.

Mag, yes, they nerfed her into the ground and she's now for two things - stripping armor and making Lanka commercials in Simulacrum. 

If these three are any indication, I'd rater DE not touch any of the frames you guys consider cheesy. Like, at all.

[Unholyrequiem]

When the Synoid Simulor+MIrage combo is trashing sortie tier missions with relative ease it irks me that people can still defend this level of cheese. Granted Telos Boltace is no better. The simple fact is people generally don't enjoy the one quick twitch style of gameplay that starts to unfold at around level 130+ onwards where basically any stray bullet can hit will mow any warframe without invulnerability on the spot. 

Edited January 30, 2017 by Unholyrequiem

[Chipputer]

19 hours ago, Xzorn said:

If it's so simple... Please tell me the avg bleed damage per shot of this loadout.

Knowing specific numbers isn't what makes it simple. Knowing the exact method to increase your numbers is what makes it simple. You increase base damage to increase slash proc damage. That's it. You've figured out the exact numbers? Great! Looks like you're the 33.333 (repeating of course) guy from that old Leeroy Jenkins video. It's a meaningless number to know and doesn't make it have any more depth.

19 hours ago, Xzorn said:

It's not meaningless because OP's multiple threads about the same thing are simply a result of perspective. From a player who doesn't do Sorties Ignis is the most OP weapon in the game. Yet we all know that's not true don't we? Why? Perspective.

Oh stop it.

You doing content at level 300+ doesn't mean that you have any better perspective on what is and isn't overpowered. Nova with a Viral/heavy Slash Dread is stupid powerful in end game content but isn't in early game content. A Braton Prime is powerful in early game but not end game. Different weapons work in different ways. What a startling revelation...

... said nobody ever.

The problems that OP is talking about happen in content from level 1 through to the end of Sorties. They aren't going to happen in your oh-so-precious super high end game scenarios because the types of players who exhibit the behavior discussed here won't last until that point. Your perspective doesn't mean a dang thing if you're not also applying it to the problems being discussed by the OP.

19 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Remove Simulor, Remove Boltance, it doesn't matter. You've fixed the problem for a few months till something else takes it place.

I don't see OP specifically trying to get weapons removed at all. Matter of fact, most people who have any actual, "perspective," on this matter (as you seem to want to talk about) have made it abundantly clear that the weapons and mechanics being brought up here simply need to be reworked in a way that doesn't destroy anybody's overall fun but still makes them less of a walking simulator. Whether you believe OP is making that point clear (or at all) doesn't matter because you're not even discussing issues in the same ballpark as the ones being raised in this topic.

19 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I have a reason to get upgrades, Rivens, new Prime weapons. What reason is there for someone who sits at lvl 40-80? Like I said in my first post. Random mods can finish most content. Talk about  meaningless levels..... There's nothing more meaningless than a game you can't lose and have little to no reason to progress in.

Good for you!

But what does this have to do with the topic at hand?

[Xzorn]

10 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

-snip-

 

I explained in far more detail than I should have how scaling, Power creep and damage output affect the subject at hand and I'm really unable to better express the mechanics at work here. You cannot fix this problem without fixing core mechanics of the game.  It's not an isolated problem with a certain weapon or frame.

My example of removing Simulor and Boltace from the game is to explain how completely futile it is to try and fix by any other means.

Short of removing all AoE weapons from the game this issue will never end.

I already know their proposal won't affect post Sorties content because that Trash already doesn't work. That's kinda part of my point.

If you and OP want to pretend that scaling doesn't matter in a game with consistent Power Creep and scaling enemies that's your choice but good luck trying to fix this problem every 3-6 months and repackaging the same thread complaint over and over because it's not going to stop.

And I agree with OP's proposed change on Mirage + SImulor ( I agreed the first time they posted it ) but it's not a solution to the problem it's born from.

[JalakBali]

12 hours ago, Jackviator said:

Because it's a band-aid to the real problem. In addition, recruit chat takes too long to find people in (and it's not like I can control what anyone from there is using), my friends and clan won't always be online or able to help me, and running solo gimps my survivability.

Wouldn't playing as Synoid Mirage make your survivability better? Or have one in your team? Is your problem really "I can't survive this solo" or is it "I don't want other people to out-kill my stats"?

 

Also, how is "play with people you want to play with" a "band-aid to the real problem"? You assume that your problem is the only problem worth solving when it is entirely subjective.  If your proposal were "DE, pls add a filter for joining missions so I don't have to join a mission with so-and-so set up" then yea, I'd support that. But if your proposal were "DE, ban this playstyle I don't like" then I won't support you.

 

12 hours ago, Jackviator said:

At least that can be solved with liberal application of "git gud." But no amount of git gud will allow one to kill enemies that are already dead, because an AoE user waltzed into the same room as you.

Then this problem could be solved with "dun be lazy" and spend the time to form the group you want, make a network of friends you like playing with, or just "git gud" enough to play solo.

[Vas_Eldryn]

Guess the OP has never played a sortie. 

these only effect low level play.

[shyguyk]

1 minute ago, zerofourdelta said:

Guess the OP has never played a sortie. 

these only effect low level play.

By that logic we should only play for the 40 or so minutes to play a sortie and log off. What sense does that make?

As far as that one guy saying enemy scaling doesn't happen fast enough... Nerfing weapons/mods/abilites does the same thing without inflating a buncha numbers

[Vas_Eldryn]

Just now, shyguyk said:

By that logic we should only play for the 40 or so minutes to play a sortie and log off. What sense does that make?

As far as that one guy saying enemy scaling doesn't happen fast enough... Nerfing weapons/mods/abilites does the same thing without inflating a buncha numbers

by what logic? just making the comment nobody takes ember or an AOE DPS frame to high level conent, unless some syndicate mods are used, then DPS does not matter as the rarely have the power strength to do anything to 60+ enemies. eg a stun volt, a knockdown ember or a freeze frost.

where did i suggest just doing a sortie and logging off? Are you just trying to put words in my mouth to win an arguement you imagined we are having?

 

 

 

[shyguyk]

1 minute ago, zerofourdelta said:

by what logic? just making the comment nobody takes ember or an AOE DPS frame to high level conent, unless some syndicate mods are used, then DPS does not matter as the rarely have the power strength to do anything to 60+ enemies. eg a stun volt, a knockdown ember or a freeze frost.

where did i suggest just doing a sortie and logging off? Are you just trying to put words in my mouth to win an arguement you imagined we are having?

"These only affect low level play"

If the only (easily accessible) places for play without things like Mirage+simulor is a sortie (or kuva flood mission) where the enemies aren't low level enough to be susceptible to insta-cheese AoE guns, one can conclude that those would be the only missions worth doing for people who dislike the playstyle, given they still want to use public matchmaker. If you could replay those things to infinity, that'd be ok, but you cant (Well the kuva flood one you can, but you're stuck to one mission type). People shouldn't have to go out of their way to avoid cheese.

 

[Jackviator]

37 minutes ago, zerofourdelta said:

Guess the OP has never played a sortie. 

these only effect low level play.

The MiraMulor requires about 4 seconds to kill a level 100 heavy gunner with this setup. Didn't even have to use an entire clip.

If it can do that, it can wipe groups of them off the map as well. Sure, everything doesn't instantly die, but you can relatively safely use the same strategy you'd use to get you through a level 100 mission that you'd use to get you through a level 10 mission: Press 1, press 3, hold W, mash M1.

 

So yeah, it does in fact scale pretty far.

Not to mention, the fact that things fall off don't even matter that much, as I said in the OP:

On 1/29/2017 at 0:37 AM, Jackviator said:

• "But (insert weapon or ability X here) doesn't scale well past (insert enemy level here), so it's balanced, right?"

No, it's not. Because, again, NEWS FLASH: enemy level doesn't matter outside of Sorties, Raids, and Kuva Floods. (And honestly, things like the Synoid Simulor and Telos Boltace scale just fine into those). And here's why:

Ever since Void 2.0 dropped, enemy scaling simply ceased to be a factor for like 90% of the gameplay; like it or not, the star-chart (and the low enemy levels that come with it), makes up the VAST majority of gameplay for most people in this game now due to how the new Void system works. Endless void missions are too inconsistent to attract people to them, you aren't being encouraged to go as long as possible in them to reduce the number of Void Keys you use, etc. There's just no reason to go into long Survival missions and whatnot anymore, outside of just for the hell of it/bragging rights.

Sorties only make up a tiny % of daily gameplay for a lot of people. So these types of things fall off a bit. So does literally everything else in this game (save for the obvious exception of Covert Lethality). But that doesn't matter, because Sorties, Kuva Floods, those are just a single facet of this game when compared to all the other stuff you'll find in it: 

Fissure missions, timed alerts, syndicate missions, regular Kuva Siphons, Hieracon/Akkad speedruns for credits, etc etc etc; all of these are part of the game too, and all of them take place at Star Chart levels.

[(PSN)Exia0321]

I really really appreciate the effort, logic and humor the OP put into this well thought out and written post. 

I do agree with your points. 

But then my other side comes out...and that is the problem you have...there are 2 sides to every issue. 

I agree with your points AND I totally disagree with your points. 

The setups you write against serve a purpose in that they allow for the game to done efficiently and quickly. 

Yes it ruins the experience BUT ONLY IF you see it that way. 

There are so many times I click a mission mode (often the damn Nitan/Forma rewards) and say I hope someone else does this S#&$ cause all I want is the reward. 

Laziness or calculated laziness is the other side to your argument that you did not address. 

To me its a Win-win in so many situations. They get to kill and do all the killing, I get the reward and a much needed 2min break to watch some good YouTube videos on builds.

I want the MiraMulors around so that they can do all the damn work and I can just walk my &#! to the damn Nitan reward and then get back to the mode I really care about (1hr survival going solo using Hydriod--Cause that is where I enjoy the game).

 

 

[Kordy]

People have been whining since update 6 hit the steam download lists about others going fast.

 

I don't think those people 'get' the horde shooter part.

 

[Vas_Eldryn]

bugger... didn't realize mirage could own level 100 content that easily, as I have not built the frame yet.

But saying all frames with AOE DPS should be nerfed into the ground is just plain wrong.... I think your barking at the wind.

so maybe mirage could use a rework if she can solo grind level 100 content..... but ember, volt, frost, mag, equinox, etc... do they all need to be nerfed into the ground to make it so support frames and defensive frames can compete with DPS frames in damage done at low levels?

Edited January 31, 2017 by zerofourdelta

[Jackviator]

37 minutes ago, zerofourdelta said:

ember, volt, frost, mag, equinox, etc...

Ember, maybe, because the effort-to-reward ratio on her is way off; she's basically MiraMulor .5; Press 4, hold W, everything dies.

Then again I think she needs a rework anyway. 3/4 of her abilities do the same thing: "do non-scaling fire damage in an area." And the only ability that doesn't do that just let's you do slightly more non-scaling fire damage in an area.

If it were up to me, I'd give her scaling abilities. Scaling enemy Armor removal, damage reduction on her end like she had in the old days, change her 2 to buff the damage of multiple element types, etc.

Volt, nope. He's fine. He does minimal damage, even with his 4; his kit is much more designed for the purpose of CC.

Frost... I could see Frost potentially having his 4's damage reduced a bit, but that would be fine in my eyes; the massive CC and enemy armor reduction does more than enough, and this is coming from someone who has mained him for 1.2k hours.

Mag, Equinox, Nidus, Saryn and pretty much all the rest of the "damage" frames all require build-up in their abilities for the reward of massive damage after a while, or have other drawbacks (like having Excalibur be restricted to his EB and not have access to weapons). 

Essentially, the ideal works like this: You put the effort and energy in to do things like synergize Saryn's abilities, build up Equinox's Maim over time, etc, you get the reward of widespread damage. (That's the effort to reward ratio I talked about before again, but actually working as it should).

[Vas_Eldryn]

1 hour ago, Jackviator said:

Ember, maybe, because the effort-to-reward ratio on her is way off; she's basically MiraMulor .5; Press 4, hold W, everything dies.

Then again I think she needs a rework anyway. 3/4 of her abilities do the same thing: "do non-scaling fire damage in an area." And the only ability that doesn't do that just let's you do slightly more non-scaling fire damage in an area.

If it were up to me, I'd give her scaling abilities. Scaling enemy Armor removal, damage reduction on her end like she had in the old days, change her 2 to buff the damage of multiple element types, etc.

Volt, nope. He's fine. He does minimal damage, even with his 4; his kit is much more designed for the purpose of CC.

Frost... I could see Frost potentially having his 4's damage reduced a bit, but that would be fine in my eyes; the massive CC and enemy armor reduction does more than enough, and this is coming from someone who has mained him for 1.2k hours.

Mag, Equinox, Nidus, Saryn and pretty much all the rest of the "damage" frames all require build-up in their abilities for the reward of massive damage after a while, or have other drawbacks (like having Excalibur be restricted to his EB and not have access to weapons). 

Essentially, the ideal works like this: You put the effort and energy in to do things like synergize Saryn's abilities, build up Equinox's Maim over time, etc, you get the reward of widespread damage. (That's the effort to reward ratio I talked about before again, but actually working as it should).

So you're thoughts are that ember and miarge should be nerfed hard..... everyone is entitled to their opinion i guess, doubt it'll happen though.

how long did it take ash to be nerfed, and that was not just for DPS?

Edited January 31, 2017 by zerofourdelta

[Helljack84]

Sorry, I'm a bit late. Is it the third or fourth time we're having this topic?

 

[Jackviator]

2 hours ago, Helljack84 said:

Sorry, I'm a bit late. Is it the third or fourth time we're having this topic?

 

Well... Do a search for "Simulor Mirage" on these forums, and I wouldn't be surprised if the post count was in the triple to quadruple digits.

[WhyNotBro]

Yes! Let's get rid off everything what can be called somehow "AoE". Always wanted to play Splinter Cell in space vs zombies! Oh wait...

[Helljack84]

Simulor Mirage is one thing, but your personal crusade against Ember is getting kind of old.

While reading through the topic one might come up with the conclusion that it's simply the way that damage scales in this game.

You can still pick any Frame, throw a sprint mod at it and go ham.

The real issue (imo) that ruins it for others is that any one person on the team can plow through any starchart map by himself, even with more enemies.

In the process they hog spawns/reactant/xp and don't get a single bonus from joining a group, leaving 3 others with less of anything if compared to going solo.

 

For another pov: Suffering through syndicate interception and 30 rounds of defense for a weapon part I'm glad we had multiple embers on every run.

We even had a Nyx there, every wave takes longer when she uses her 3,no one complained or made a topic about it.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Helljack84

[Soketsu]

12 hours ago, Jackviator said:

The MiraMulor requires about 4 seconds to kill a level 100 heavy gunner with this setup. Didn't even have to use an entire clip.

If it can do that, it can wipe groups of them off the map as well. Sure, everything doesn't instantly die, but you can relatively safely use the same strategy you'd use to get you through a level 100 mission that you'd use to get you through a level 10 mission: Press 1, press 3, hold W, mash M1.

 

So yeah, it does in fact scale pretty far.

Not to mention, the fact that things fall off don't even matter that much, as I said in the OP:

Sorties only make up a tiny % of daily gameplay for a lot of people. So these types of things fall off a bit. So does literally everything else in this game (save for the obvious exception of Covert Lethality). But that doesn't matter, because Sorties, Kuva Floods, those are just a single facet of this game when compared to all the other stuff you'll find in it: 

Fissure missions, timed alerts, syndicate missions, regular Kuva Siphons, Hieracon/Akkad speedruns for credits, etc etc etc; all of these are part of the game too, and all of them take place at Star Chart levels.

Impresive, you take 4 second for a level 100 gunner ? How inefficient .

There are loadouts able to slain  1 up to 5 6 packed gunners lvl 125 in 1-2 sec,  1 push button & 1 clik, and it's over.

As I said couple of time, go ahead, keep on asking for nerf... I hope you will realise how pointless it was, instead of fixing others things we really need it, if DE do so, since another hyped cheese will take the place.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Soketsu