Certain AoE Weapons/Frames are enjoyment-vacuums. AKA, having to play against your squad isn't fun.

[Jackviator]

Brainless AoE weapons and frames (those that don't even require aiming or some type of "build-up" to deal massive damage, unlike, say, what Saryn and Equinox have) ruin the experience for everyone in the squad in most cases, including the person wielding them. Thus, I think certain weapons and frames should be tweaked, rebalanced, reworked, or nerfed to bring them into balance with the rest of the options in this game.

...

_{(Yeah, that should be enough time...)} Right, now that all of the knee-jerk commenters are already hammering keys in the comment section about how "nerfing is the worst idea ever, blah blah blah," as opposed to reading the rest of the post, let's press on, shall we?

---

It seems that whenever I go into a PuG mission nowadays, there's a good chance I'll see some combination of the following, especially if it's an Exterminate, Capture, or Sabotage mission (aka the "quick" mission types):

• Ember
• Volt/Valkyr with Telos Boltace and a slide attack macro (or at the very least mashing the buttons required for slide attacks)
• Mirage with Synoid Simulor (or the TelTace, but the SynSim is much more common).

And whenever I see these, I know exactly what I'm in for: A walking simulator. Because the enemies a room or 2 ahead of me are already dead. The combat portion of the gameplay is essentially removed from the equation whenever one of these is in your squad.

AoE weapons that have no drawbacks (such as the ones I listed) simply leave Hitscan and Travel-Time based, "conventional" weapons, like shotguns, assault rifles, bows, (basically anything that isn't an AoE) behind. They simply cannot compete with these things. They can't. So anyone using them is left in the dust.

This gif (which I shamelessly took from another thread :P) sums it up pretty well:

_{(Except, replace Jake the Dog's general expression with one of resentment and irritation).}

Basically, these types of things are INCREDIBLY unbalanced/OP vs basically anything else; they nuke rooms, often without any effort from the user beyond pressing a button or two (for example: How to play Ember; press 4, hold W. There, you now know how to play Ember). They're far above the power level of almost anything else in the game, due to how the mechanics of the game work: that is to say, anything that can do AoE damage is just more efficient, due to the essentially "horde-mode" style of the gameplay. They're simply the most efficient tools for the job, so why use literally anything else?

And that's not even going into the ethical problem this presents. For the users of these things, the thought process essentially boils down to: "I'm bored of this, so we're going to get through it with as little gameplay as possible to shave (at most) 30 seconds off of the mission completion timer, and none of you gets to say, or do, anything about it. Deal? ...No? Deal anyway. Not like you can do anything."

One person gets the power to decide that their experience matters more than the experience had by 3 other people in a squad. And thus, this creates a fun-vacuum that sucks the enjoyment out of the experience for everyone involved, including the person wielding these things, because honestly, does anyone actually enjoy having most of the gameplay ripped away from them, even if it's by their own choices?

My Proposal As To What DE Should Do:

Rebalance. Rework. Even that dreaded word that immediately triggers salt from a large amount of people: NERF. Do whatever needs to be done to reduce the sheer meta of these things, make them fall in line with all the other options we have in this game, give them drawbacks vs using something else, reduce the sheer OPness of them, add a bit of balance.

For example:

• Change how Mirage interacts with the Synoid Simulor specifically, by having the Synoid Simulors of the light-clones "belong" to them, making it so that each clone's Simulor orbs can only combine with the orbs from their gun, making it so that one can't instantly nuke rooms, but instead at least have to aim in the general direction of enemies first to ensure the orbs combine correctly. This would then allow the MiraMulor user's teammates to perhaps experience a bit of combat before the entire room is devoid of life.
• Rework Ember's 4 (and tbh the rest of her kit as well) so she can't just walk into a room and have everything die without any input from her. For example, an idea as to how her 4 could function if reworked: Ember could create an orb of fire, similar to Frost's snow globe, that blankets a wide area in heat, decreasing the armor and shield %s of enemies over time, while also dealing fire DoTs to any enemy within the radius. (In this way, Ember would actually have uses in levels past 60, so in a way this would actually be a pretty major buff).
• Rework the Telos Boltace to do something, almost anything else than what it currently does. Let its slide attack send out a wave that reduces the damage all affected enemies do, or make them less accurate, or SOMETHING. Almost Anything but the instant room-clearing guaranteed Bleed Proc wave we have now. Sure, let its use be useful at all levels give it good scaling, like the two ideas I just listed, but the instant, brainless, AoE of endlessly-scaling Finisher-based Bleed procs is so OP as to be ridiculous.

etc.

------

.....And now, a copy and pasted list of preemptive questions and answers for all those who feel like defending their OP toys, because I simply cannot be bothered dealing with those types of people anymore. I just can't. I'm done.

The illogical and often hypocritical arguments are always the same, the answers to those arguments are always the same, these issues have been discussed to death on these forums, reanimated by Nekros, and then discussed to death again.

---

BEGINNING OF COPY/PASTE:

(Format: bulleted quotations are the commenter, the text immediately below them is my response).

• "You're just salt-"

Ah ah ah! Nope. I'll just stop you there.

No, not salty. Just have eyes. And a brain. And when those two combine, they're surprisingly capable of seeing and recognizing problems in this game, like one person being able to decide the experience of the entire squad by removing a large portion of the gameplay (combat) from everyone in a squad, themselves included, or certain weapons/frames in this game being completely unbalanced compared to basically everything else.

• "Well, if you don't like it, just don't use it."

Invalid argument. News flash: it's a multiplayer co-op game. The experience of everyone in the squad has to be kept in mind when adding anything to it, and if 3/4 of the squad is bored out of their skulls due to the choices of one of the squad, there's a massive problem.

• "Just use recruit chat, or run with your clan, or solo."

Nope. Recruit chat takes too long, solo gimps my survivability due to not being able to be revived back up if I go down, not to mention the reduction in affinity+resources/time ratio, meaning I progress a lot slower. And finally, my clan/friends won't always be online or in the mood to help me. (Plus, those are all band-aid fixes anyway that ignore the problem and instead encourage the segregation of the playerbase).

• "Well then, just use the weapons/frames yourself, beat them at their own game."

HAHAHAHAHA... no.

I don't care about kill counts. I don't give a rat's taint about them. What I care about is participation. Players other than those using the AoE damage should be able to at least pretend it's possible to participate in the combat when an AoE user is in the squad. That, and balance, are all I care about.

• "But if (insert weapon/frame X) is nerfed, people would move on to the Ignis, or the Amprex, or the Tonkor, or spamming Avalanche, or-"

I'll stop you there again. Yes. People might move onto those things. But at least those weapons listed require a marginal amount of aiming, and as for those alternatives that don't, (frames that do things like cause AoE damage with their ultimates like Frost and Rhino): ...Honestly, I wouldn't be opposed to having the damage reduced or removed in those cases, if necessary. (So long as the damage is replaced by some sort of debuff to enemies or something).

And this is coming from someone who's mained Frost for more than 1.2k hours, as well as using Rhino Prime plenty over time.

• "But (insert weapon or ability X here) doesn't scale well past (insert enemy level here), so it's balanced, right?"

No, it's not. Because, again, NEWS FLASH: enemy level doesn't matter outside of Sorties, Raids, and Kuva Floods. (And honestly, things like the Synoid Simulor and Telos Boltace scale just fine into those). And here's why:

Ever since Void 2.0 dropped, enemy scaling simply ceased to be a factor for like 90% of the gameplay; like it or not, the star-chart (and the low enemy levels that come with it), makes up the VAST majority of gameplay for most people in this game now due to how the new Void system works. Endless void missions are too inconsistent to attract people to them, you aren't being encouraged to go as long as possible in them to reduce the number of Void Keys you use, etc. There's just no reason to go into long Survival missions and whatnot anymore, outside of just for the hell of it/bragging rights.

• "Well... Stop trying to decide what's fun for everyone, or how the game should be played!"

And yet, the MiraMulors and whatnot of the game make that decision every time they enter a PuG squad. "I'm bored by this mission type, so I'm going to make it as time-efficient as possible and remove a large portion of the gameplay (combat) for the rest of my squad, and none of you get to say anything about it." How is that not "deciding what's fun for everyone"? After all, they're deciding that the mission is a waste of their time, and just want it over with already. And so, they end up forcing this onto their squadmates.

So, basically what I'm trying to say here, is that turnabout is fair play. And also, to be blunt, this particular argument is quite hypocritical. If you actually think no-one should get to decide what's fun for someone else, YOU should be calling for these things to be nerfed too.

• "But it's just PVE!"

That doesn't mean balance should be thrown out the window. If you don't believe me, have a read, you might learn something:

• "But I like being OverPowered! That's something I find fun!"

So go play a single-player game where you get to be OP, where that doesn't ruin the experience for anyone. I hear Skyrim's pretty good, it even lets you toggle God mode on the PC version. Saints Row 4 has similarly over the top Parkour and Powers, might try that one out.

...Point is, like I said, the experience of the whole squad has to be kept in mind, and if your enjoyment comes at the cost of the enjoyment of others, there's a problem. Recognize that you're in a multiplayer, co-op environment, and that you're not the center of the universe. All 4 squad members deserve to have a good time, and not have all the fun sucked out of the experience through the actions of one person.

• "...Well then, while we're at it, why don't we nerf Frost because his Snow Globe is too "meta" for defense? Or Nyx, because honestly, CC is too OP, or-"

I'll stop you there, again. The reason I don't think that extensive, straw-man, grasping for straws, sarcasm-filled list of frames you no doubt just mapped out in your head should be nerfed, is this:

While frames that can do things like protect an area or restore large amounts of energy to squadmates are more useful than some frames or weapons in some situations, at least in those cases they're not detracting from the fun/enjoyment of anyone else in the squad. Basically, it's a matter of ethics. Those frames might be more adapted to certain situations than other frames are, but they still let the rest of the squad PARTICIPATE in the gameplay/combat, even if they make it easier, or remove some of the risk of doing so by slowing down the enemies, stripping away armor, etc.

• "Well, erm, you're just trying to make every weapon/frame the same! Is that what you want? To homogenize everything?"

...

...............................

How do I put this... Take a look at how the Grinlok works vs the Soma. Or, for a more extreme example, take a look at the Jat Kittag vs the Redeemer. Basically, weapon and frame mechanics do FAR more than enough to make every piece of gear in this game feel unique.

And anyway, no, that's not my goal. I don't want any weapon or frame to be identical to anything else. I just want to make sure that things are in a relatively stable state of BALANCE. There's a massive difference.

• "..... but....well.... _{uh.................................."}

...Out of arguments? Good. Now we can both move on with our lives.

END OF COPY/PASTE

 

-----------

..........

.....You know what? I don't think I'm even going to bother following this post once I release it into the wild, because I know what'll happen: It'll just devolve into petty arguments of the sort I just mapped out in the OP. The same arguments will happen over and over again, for page after page, because this is just one of many of these threads, and they all end the same way. So... yeah, I know this probably won't change anything. But I and others will keep posting this type of stuff until it does.

Final word: To reiterate, having to play against your squad isn't fun. I and others shouldn't have to struggle against the whims of one of the squad to enjoy the combat.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Jackviator

[VakarisJ]

What exactly did you expect from playing with PuGs? Even before the current things like Simulor Mirage, range Ember and slide attack Boltace became popular you had people running two rooms ahead killing everything as quickly as possible to just get the mission over with and get to the rewards.

Taking away the tools to quickly complete missions will do nothing but irritate, because this game isn't about tactical combat (not until possibly Damage 3.0), it's about sweeping your way through the level and grabbing all the loot -- it's a grindfest, it was from the start and it probably won't change.

Regardless of whenever you like it, the only alternative is to play with like-minded people. Disbarring that, there are other games to play if you got bored with the current set of numbers incrementing, it's a lot quicker and easier for everyone than trying to change the game it self.

Edited January 29, 2017 by VakarisJ

[Randomeer]

Sure, eventually DE might even nerf those (or powercreep something else) but if you are expecting to have your 'fun' slowly going through exterminates and stuff I'll have to disappoint you - people aren't interested in doing missions slow all the time so they will probably just find another tool to speedrun missions with and deny you all those 'deserved' kills. In fact choosing public more often than not is for getting through missions faster or getting more rewards (fissures, higher enemy count) than getting your slow 'fun'.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Randomeer
missed a word apparently

[Hallowieners]

The fact

Just now, VakarisJ said:

What exactly did you expect from playing with PuGs? Even before the current things like Simulor mirage, range Ember and slide attack boltace became popular you had people running two rooms ahead killing everything as quickly as possible to just get the mission over with and get to the rewards. Taking away the tools to quickly complete missions will do nothing but irritate, because this game isn't about tactical combat (not until possibly Damage 3.0), it's about sweeping your way through the level and grabbing all the loot -- it's a grindfest, it was from the start and it probably won't change. The only alternative is to play with like-minded people, just ask in chat and you'll probably find some people that want to take it slow. Disbarring that, there are other games to play if you got bored with the current set of numbers incrementing.

He already knows what he's expecting when he plays with pugs and that is why he created a thread to suggest a solution for this issue. The fact that the player has to ask around in chat in order to deal with this issue is a problem of itself. Playing with like-minded people is not the "only alternative", one could suggest DE somehow handle this issue. Really, turning missions into walking simulators (especially for new players) is definitely not something that should be happening considering this only benefits those who are using the room clearing weapon/frames and those in the same mindset. If playing a game is boring enough that it warrants players to do stuff like this, then maybe the developers should make the game more interesting, and probably alter/remove room clearing methods like these. 

[Ninja22678]

I can't be bothered to read the whole thread at the moment. Here's my point on the Telos Boltace/Synoid Siimulor/general AOE weaponary.

 

DE doesn't need to nerf them. What needs to be changed is not the weapon, but the situations that they're used in, i.e. the way enemies work. These weapons are only unbalanced and OP because of how the enemies are basically just an endless horde rushing towards you just waiting for you to shoot some AOE into them and destroy the whole lot of them. There needs to be more focus on synergy between the different units of the faction so that AOE weaponary and single target and everything in between has a purpose. The stronger units need to be made even stronger so that they can't be decimated by AOE weaponary but rather must be focused on with single target/non AOE weaponary to be effective. 

I know some/all was likely mentioned in a Devstream because I heard that Damage 3.0 would be something of the sort of what I described above; if it was, I agree; if it wasn't, then... well... it's my take... I guess.

[Jackviator]

On 1/29/2017 at 1:14 AM, VakarisJ said:

What exactly did you expect from playing with PuGs?

Well, when one decides to go into a Public match to participate in some gameplay, I think it's fair to at least have the expectation that there will actually be gameplay to participate in, and for the game to NOT be turned into a walking simulator, no matter what loadout the PuG squadmates take with them.

I don't think that's really too much to ask.

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited January 30, 2017 by Jackviator

[Prany]

9 minutes ago, Ninja22678 said:

DE doesn't need to nerf them. What needs to be changed is not the weapon, but the situations that they're used in, i.e. the way enemies work. These weapons are only unbalanced and OP because of how the enemies are basically just an endless horde rushing towards you just waiting for you to shoot some AOE into them and destroy the whole lot of them. There needs to be more focus on synergy between the different units of the faction so that AOE weaponary and single target and everything in between has a purpose. The stronger units need to be made even stronger so that they can't be decimated by AOE weaponary but rather must be focused on with single target/non AOE weaponary to be effective.

Easier said than done. Our AoE capabilities nullify anything that updated AI could ever do. And updating enemy mechanics will piss off many players just like nullifiers do. Don't get me wrong, I'm of the minority who likes nullifiers, but, if there any more enemies like them, community will start whining for so long till DE will nerf these new mechanics to irrevelance.

[(PSN)shadowraith_666]

so your asking to nerf launchers, syndicate weapons (that have an AOE bonus), ignis, simulor (both variants), AOE mods (combustion beam, concealed explosives, thunderbolt, power throw etc), chaining weapons (amprex, atomos), frame AOE abilities (most frames have an AOE), frame syndicate augment mods (that boost AOE abilities) and sentinels... that's a huge chunk of the game.

[Jackviator]

On 1/29/2017 at 2:06 AM, (PS4)shadowwraith_666 said:

launchers, syndicate weapons (that have an AOE bonus), ignis, simulor (both variants), AOE mods (combustion beam, concealed explosives, thunderbolt, power throw etc), chaining weapons (amprex, atomos), frame AOE abilities (most frames have an AOE), frame syndicate augment mods (that boost AOE abilities) and sentinels... that's a huge chunk of the game.

Nope. Just certain ones. Specifically, those that don't require aiming or any real input from the user other than button mashing, a la MiraMulor (more accurately how the Synoid Simulor interacts with Mirage), Ember, and the Telos Boltace. It's the brainless efficiency that needs to take a hit on these things, because the effort-to-reward ratio on these things is way off, in that they essentially require next to no effort from the user for a very large reward (in the form of many enemies taking massive damage simultaneously). As for the other examples listed, I'm fine with most of them:

• Syndicate explosions are fine due to them being essentially a "reward" for a large amount of enemies dying in the area around you; aka, they require buildup before they can activate. Effort=reward. Plus, the blasts only deal a set, non-scaling amount of damage that has a decently long cooldown anyhow.
• Chaining weapons at the very least require you to aim at enemies first, which can't be said for the brainless AoE effects I've listed. You take the time to aim first, especially if you recognize where it's most effective (groups of enemies) and strategize around that, you get the reward of melting groups of enemies.
• Same with the explosive augments like Concealed Explosives and such. They require a bit of aiming first, and mindfulness from the user so as to not blow yourself up in the process. Effort=reward.
• The AoEs on most frames are more focused on things like CC or group debuffs in most cases (the added damage is just the cherry on top, and often token). As for most of those that aren't, and instead have a large damage payoff at the end... well, those types of abilities often require one to "build up" the damage of it. This comes in many forms; Nova's Antimatter Drop requires a large amount of damage be input into it for the explosion damage to scale well, Saryn requires synchronization with her other abilities, Mag's Magnetize requires a lot of gunfire from both the enemies within and your own weapons, etc.
• And Sentinel weapons, to be frank, don't do enough damage to be bothered with unless you're at Venus levels, maybe Jupiter at absolute most.

In all of these cases, the AoEs require buildup of some sort, or at the very least the act of aiming in the vague direction of enemies, which can't be said of the instantly-room-nuking weapons and frames that prevent participation, like Ember, MiraMulor, etc.

What logically follows, is that when one has to at the very least aim first, one ensures that one's teammates also have time to aim before the room is cleared, maybe even let loose a few shots. This hopefully allows for participation from everyone in the team, assuming all members of the squad are in the same room, with the same enemies.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Jackviator

[VakarisJ]

1 hour ago, Hallowieners said:

Playing with like-minded people is not the "only alternative", one could suggest DE somehow handle this issue. Really, turning missions into walking simulators (especially for new players) is definitely not something that should be happening considering this only benefits those who are using the room clearing weapon/frames and those in the same mindset. If playing a game is boring enough that it warrants players to do stuff like this, then maybe the developers should make the game more interesting, and probably alter/remove room clearing methods like these. 

He's advocating massive nerfs to the current system. The problem isn't that players have access to these measures, it's that they use them. Cause and effect.

Cause: game is grindy and repetitive. Effect: players try to find optimal time-wise and optimal effort-wise ways of getting through it.

Given that "every" PuG is one that farms the game rather than plays the game, it's obvious that there's a reason for it to be the meta. The reason is the game from it's very core:

I played back when Excalibur Prime was still on sale and the meta was Trinity feeding Crush/Avalanche/Radial Javelin spam. I achieved MR4 without trying and quit soon after.

I returned a while later, only to find that the meta was now Draco faming with Mesa and greedy pull Mag. I achieved MR9 and quit the game vowing to never come back to this grindfest.

And yet I find my self returning a year later, and have been playing for over a month so far. The current meta is/was range Ember, etc., etc... and Secura Lecta Akkad farming. I'm almost MR19 now and nothing has changed since the game began, only the tools with which the same goals are met: better UI, more eyecandy in the graphics, the loss of Trinity's lobster tail, some quality of life improvements, more gear, etc. Still I come back again and again and find my self enjoying the game somehow.

Completely reworking the game at this point isn't an option. People that play it already know what they're in for. The game will move forward at it's own pace and towards it's own goals. One of them (Damage 3.0) seems to be in line with what the OP demands.

For all it's flaws, it still seems to be one of those games that I return to when there's nothing better to play, simply because of what the game is. I'm suggesting he does the same.

[Jackviator]

15 hours ago, VakarisJ said:

Cause: game is grindy and repetitive. Effect: players try to find optimal time-wise and optimal effort-wise ways of getting through it.

Eh... I think that's debatable. In a lot of cases I've seen, by trying to minmax their way through the game (Ember through Exterminates and such), all it does to players is make it WAY easier for themselves to be burnt out by the whole thing. After all, they're not enjoying themselves.

And sure, people will probably get tired of doing the same general type of task over and over again, but that's why there are so many things to collect in this game; to give you lots of different ways of going about the process of getting what you want, be it some shiny new gun, a new primed frame you've been after, etc. The more build variety and whatnot, the less you'll notice the grind.

If people would stop and smell the flowers (aka actually appreciate how it felt to smash in the head of that passing Corpus Crewman with a giant Hammer, Staff, Nunchaku, etc) as opposed to just going MiraMulor, holding W and mashing M1 and waiting for the mission to be over... I think they'd find that the game can be a lot more enjoyable than they give it credit for, no matter the enemy level.

15 hours ago, VakarisJ said:

Completely reworking the game at this point isn't an option

I mean... I don't see why not; DE do it on a pretty regular basis. Just look at Parkour 2.0, Damage 2.0, Void 2.0, how we went from the old Fusion system to Endo, etc etc etc.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Jackviator

[VakarisJ]

2 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

Eh... I think that's debatable. In a lot of cases I've seen, by trying to minmax their way through the game (Ember through Exterminates and such), all it does to players is make it WAY easier for themselves to be burnt out by the whole thing. After all, they're not enjoying themselves.

And sure, people will probably get tired of doing the same general type of task over and over again, but that's why there are so many things to collect in this game; to give you lots of different ways of going about the process of getting what you want, be it some shiny new gun, a new primed frame you've been after, etc. The more build variety and whatnot, the less you'll notice the grind.

There are very few guns in the game that are worth farming for. Soma Prime was one of them, before it got vaulted. Boltor Prime was also one, until it met the same fate. The rest are only there for you to get to 30 and sell, simply to get mastery for something you want, which isn't vaulted yet, like the Tigris Prime, which needs MR13.

Same goes for most warframes, while I appreciate the game forcing people to try out new things, more often then not, it's just you leveling something that you don't want and won't use, simply to increment a number. All the different resources in the game are also that: just numbers.

You shoot numbers with numbers to get more varying numbers of things you need to get other numbers. It's a very advanced version of Cookie Clicker.

Contrary to the idea of working towards a goal, I've seen lots of people just setting up a simulor farm in a hallway and watching anime on the side. They obviously wanted something to occupy themselves while they watched anime, not to be engaged in a perilous battle, demanding all of their attention.

Alternative view on working towards a goal: I'm usually in need of void traces, but they are a pain to farm. It requires you to do void fissues over and over again, whenever some good ones pop up. The quotes of lotus are already burning in my own personal hell "you're going to need more reactant to open your relic", "the enemies are dropping reactant", "find more reactant". Even with a booster I'm not getting enough traces to stay invested in the game, so I just start a Lith excavation, get my Ember Prime, turn on World on Fire and go do something more productive, like daydreaming. The goal is void traces, but I can't muster the investment to actively seek them out, so I use Ember, which requires little investment, and from that -- as little tediousness as possible.

To answer the first part of the quote: I'm not using Ember because I'm burnt out. I'm using Ember not to burn out. Watching World on Fire burn away the tedium heals my soul.

 

23 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

If people would stop and smell the flowers (aka actually appreciate how it felt to smash in the head of that passing Corpus Crewman with a giant hammer, Staff, Nunchaku, etc) as opposed to just going MiraMulor, holding W and mashing M1 and waiting for the mission to be over... I think they'd find that the game can be a lot more enjoyable than they give it credit for, no matter the enemy level.

Sadly, as devs noted themselves many times in their livestreams: mininos die in nanoseconds. They're nothing but fodder that you need to get through to get to the good stuff.

Yeah, it might be fun to test out my new Twin Basolk with Rift Strike on a few of the Bombards in a game, but pretty soon I get over the novelty and just want to get rid of them, rather than tickle them.

In the end, I always prefer to try out new weapons solo, because I don't want to compete for my kills with 3 guys wielding assault rifles, sending tracers every which way, obscuring my little moment of awe. Whatever they're firing is irrelevant, because this whole game has bloom turned up to 11 anyway.

 

16 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

I mean... I don't see why not; DE do it on a pretty regular basis. Just look at Parkour 2.0, Damage 2.0, Void 2.0, how we went from the old Fusion system to Endo, etc etc etc.

I see them more as improvements to the current system, rather then a complete overhaul of what the game is. They haven't introduced Loot 2.0 or Immersion 1.5. Though The War Within got close to the latter, it was only a single quest.

[schilds]

The behaviour of enemies is just not interesting enough to warrant spending a lot of time interacting with them. That's definitely not to say there is no fun in the game, but it is on a larger scale than combat with each individual enemy.

 

Maybe they should treat the whole mission as a boss fight and the whole map as a boss, with lots of interesting things going on and dynamic responses. Not necessarily complicated AI, but more along the lines of puzzle games, where player actions push/pull the enemies/map into different behaviours/configurations.

Edited January 29, 2017 by schilds

[Reifnir]

4 hours ago, Jackviator said:

Brainless AoE weapons and frames (those that don't even require aiming or some type of "build-up" to deal massive damage, unlike, say, what Saryn and Equinox have) ruin the experience for everyone in the squad in most cases, including the person wielding them.

Yeah?

Let's turn this around and see how you like it.

Ahem.

 

I think that boring, low fire rate and little to no AoE weapons ruin the game experience and turn a fun horde shooter into a horribly unbalanced tactical shooter-wannabe that it actually isn't. Whenever I see people armed with Lex, Vectis, Buzlok, Sybaris or other underperforming single-target junk I want to kick them out from the group, because in most cases they won't contribute much (if at all) to the glorious carnage that makes the essence of Warframe. I propose to turn ALL weapons into AoE death machines, so that subpar, boring weapons that ruin the experience for me would start shooting homing, piercing projectiles that annihilate anything in one room and fly into the adjacent ones to continue killing stuff. 

Sounds fun? 

4 hours ago, Jackviator said:

One person gets the power to decide that their experience matters more than the experience had by 3 other people in a squad. And thus, this creates a fun-vacuum that sucks the enjoyment out of the experience for everyone involved

And who the Hek gave you the idea that you get to decide what is fun for me and everyone else? 

If you enjoy running Exterminate missions with unranked Excalibur and Braton MK-1 - by all means, play it solo or invite like-minded friends, but for some people, believe it or not, melting entire rooms just by looking in that direction is FUN. So is speed-running Exterminate/Crossfire runs or efficiently farming resources in starchart endless missions.

TL:DR; You don't get to decide what fun is for everyone. If melting hordes isn't fun for you and playing Invite Only isn't an option, maybe it's time to start looking for another game. Because Warframe is not (and is highly unlikely to ever become) a "tactical skill based shooter" you want it to be. It's a horde-slaying game and saying that efficient slaughter is bad in a horde-slayer is like playing Diablo with just the auto-attacks. 

 

 

P.S.: How come no one is crying to nerf Volt? That horrid frame can kill enemies just by running past them at breakneck speed with Shocking Speed mod equipped! The arrogance!  /sarcasm

Edited January 29, 2017 by Reifnir

[Unholyrequiem]

Haven't you heard? Aiming is for chumps. 

[KingAlkaiser]

 

very well put out OP i agree with you 100% i have the same exact complains ever since i started playing warframe and people would just use saryn and press 4 everywhere/ back in the days of putting duck tape on left mouse button and mesa auto aim bot/etc.  People continue to defend it to no end because i guess they love gettign rewarded with little to no effort.  People forget this is a multiplayer co-op game and all this stuff just hurts the game over all.

Since when was no effort/skill heck even aiming as you explained and has been complained about an ok thing for a co-op game.  Might as well make enemy just stand in one spot and let people just walk forward and clear screen at this point.

I agree also A TON of stuff needs massive rework in order to make this a more enjoyable ( aka a game where 4 players actually.......you know play the game and think) instead of turning their brains off and getting everything fed in silver spoon, or moreover having the game be played with little to no effort put in your part.

You know how boring some other co-op games would be if you gave everyone infinite ammo NUKES it might be fun for some but it gets tired pretty fast.

people will somehow still defend this which baffles me to this day.  If people just want to "cheat" or "cheese" or god mode might as well play single player game/put some bots and turn on god mode/hacks this game getting close to it at this point.

P.S-

just because enemy level 150+ which is more or less less than 10% of this game somehow don't die in one hit( they get cheesed in 2-5 hits instead) doesn't mean the game is balanced in any way when more than 75% of the game can be trivialized.

god forbid people actually aim in this game ( a lot of other "OP" weapons and stuff at the very least require you to somewhat aim )

 

by the way your gif reminded me of this for some reason lmao.

 

Edited January 29, 2017 by KingAlkaiser

[Xekrin]

This topic has been argued to death.  Neither side is going to be swayed.  Yet both sides know there are problems whether they are against or supporting.  Those problems are the same thing regardless of a player's point of view.  

The only thing that really matters is that feedback has been given and eventually, someday, DE will venture forth and do something about it one way or another.  

For now, against or for, all we can do is keep playing the game we love.  Or not.

[schilds]

On the other hand I would happily play a game with less aoe and more interesting enemy behaviour to interact with. It's not like I can't adjust where (or on what scale) I find my fun :-P.

 

Also, these things can't be taken in isolation. If the combat/missions are rebalanced, so too should be the distribution of rewards. In that sense there shouldn't be any worry that my acquisition of phat loot might be disrupted. Unless the devs are lazy and rebalance one without the other :-P.

Edited January 29, 2017 by schilds

[Retequizzle]

Additional suggestion:

Let us set parameters that players have to abide by to join the mission.  For example, allow me to set a lobby where anyone can join except someone with Mirage + Simulor, or anyone with a Telos Boltace.  To prevent abuse, have it be a list of 5 things at max that you do not want to party up with.  I'd pretty much blacklist anyone using a Simulor, Boltace, Mirage, Volt and Valkyr just with that alone.  

Sure, I'd probably be in mission queues with less people, but if that equates to 90% less visual pollution from Telos Boltace slide-spam or Simulor idiocy, then I'm fine with that.  The last thing I want to do is be in a carriage drawn by one-trick ponies anyway.

[Snib]

4 hours ago, VakarisJ said:

He's advocating massive nerfs to the current system. The problem isn't that players have access to these measures, it's that they use them. Cause and effect.

Cause: game is grindy and repetitive. Effect: players try to find optimal time-wise and optimal effort-wise ways of getting through it.

Given that "every" PuG is one that farms the game rather than plays the game, it's obvious that there's a reason for it to be the meta. The reason is the game from it's very core:

I played back when Excalibur Prime was still on sale and the meta was Trinity feeding Crush/Avalanche/Radial Javelin spam. I achieved MR4 without trying and quit soon after.

I returned a while later, only to find that the meta was now Draco faming with Mesa and greedy pull Mag. I achieved MR9 and quit the game vowing to never come back to this grindfest.

And yet I find my self returning a year later, and have been playing for over a month so far. The current meta is/was range Ember, etc., etc... and Secura Lecta Akkad farming. I'm almost MR19 now and nothing has changed since the game began, only the tools with which the same goals are met: better UI, more eyecandy in the graphics, the loss of Trinity's lobster tail, some quality of life improvements, more gear, etc. Still I come back again and again and find my self enjoying the game somehow.

I must be doing something wrong, I never did any of that (except playing an Ember occasionally). Or maybe I'm doing it right?

The game isn't exactly a sandbox but you do have a lot of choices about how to play it. If meta farming is your thing that's fine, but you cannot extrapolate from your personal choices to the game as a whole.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Snib

[Gruumthimus.Prime]

Ye...go ahead, rework all the things he mentioned. I don't need simulor, 5 forma amprex will do.

[Marrt]

i completely agree with you, i love the gunplay of Warframe, shooting feels so good with some weapons (Most Burst guns, Soma, Revolvers)

But everytime i use Fun-Guns i feel how missions take like 3 times longer when not using those stupidly boring aoe-weapons. take simulor for example, how do i play it? well i have to aim down sights to trigger the argon scope and aim into the air to achieve crit-headshot. So i play by scoping into the ceiling without seeing a single enemy and i am 400% more efficient that with anything else since this thing hits through walls.

Fugging nerf Simulor, nerf every stupid wallhack-AOE crap and show the players why Warframe is a good game: Because Shooting (and Parkour) feels great.

 

[RistN]

Someone who isnt experianced and doesnt read wikia and similar "educational" sites ,which I'm regularly visiting now after almost 1,5 years of playing without a long break,uses "copy-paste" builds and weapons.Truth is that there are many other much powerful warframe abilities and weapons than ones in question.

Solution to Simulor Mirage or WoF Ember isn't to nerfed them.They are not that good,they are just lazy,overused builds.

Ember is actually not that powerful.It's limited to mid-low lvl missions.Only problem I have with simulor Mirage is that players offten don't use alt fire and break those stacks turning whole map into disco capturing pickups like ayatan stars,reactants and other stuff that can't be vacuumed.

[HyokaChan]

Look, I go into Public matchmaking, there's a bunch of enemies, I want my damn resources and thus I want them very dead and very fast. As you've already said, it's about the

Quote

not to mention the reduction in affinity+resources/time ratio

that is going on here. I go in not expecting to have fun, I go in praying I get enough stuff to go make the thing I want to have fun with. Then I go back into public to level it up so I can have fun with it.

 

Then I go have fun with it.

[Tyrian3k]

What makes the Simulor so powerful? It has insane range on its explosions and the explosions do no require line of sight and therefore hit through walls.

Playing with a Miramulor is about as fun as playing with a Mesa with old Peacemaker.

All you're doing is move around so you don't trigger the AFK timer.