Riven re-rolls are slot machines and I find it troubling

[k05h]

I have been seeing rivens in the trading post that go for 1000-2500 plat. I can barely imagine how someone feels that sells for these prices. This price also shows other players that they have to get into the rng of daily sortie, the dedicated farming of kuva and the re-rolling over and over again until they hit the god-riven jackpot.

I have friends with real life gambling addictions. And everything about rivens reminds of that. Rivens do use the same mechanics as slot machines do. When you insert more money in the form of paid boosters you can do more re-rolls in a shorter amount of time because you get more kuva. After each re-roll you wait for the plat jackpot instead of the money jackpot on slot machines. And doing this over and over again does count as conditioning for your brain the same way as slot machines. From what I see there is only short way from here to real life gambling addiction.
 
I think the whole mechanic of rivens does push the wrong buttons for those that are susceptible for gambling. Warframe was a game for completionists and collectors before we had rivens. Now I feel it turns into a very unhealthy direction.

[Azamagon]

Yup, that's the biggest problem with Rivens imo.

But I don't think they are beyond redemption. This is how I think Rivens can be refined into something more interesting and less gambling-addictive:

1) We can CHOOSE which stats we want on them, negative stats and all. This could be in ADDITION to RNG rolls though, and could cost quite a bit more. This removes the insane gambling part of it, while it still makes sure that the RNG-part at least is still a decent starting tool (if you get really unlucky starting stats overall, for example)
Also, they said they wanted us to be creative right? How is having luck with RNG in any way creative? Manually modifying the stats, on the other hand, would definitely allow us to be creative.

2) Since the ability to choose stats probably would mean that people will not experiment much in terms of stats, untie raw base damage as an RNG-choice, and instead bake in a base damage boost on EVERY riven mod, as an ADDITIONAL stat on them. That way, going for more interesting stats and utility would be more likely to happen.
After all, base damage is arguably both the most boring and most effective way to boost a weapon's performance, so untieing this stat from RNG completely sounds like a good idea to me

3) Currently, a Riven can have a MR-requirement as low as 8 and as high as 16. This rank also influences the values of your stats. Why not instead make it so that a Riven stats SCALES with your personal MR (capped at 16?). That means that there will never be a truly horrible Riven out there.

4) Furthermore, if you currently have two Rivens for the same weapon, with the same type of stats and the same MR requirement, the individual values can still highly vary. Get rid of this RNG imo, and make the values more static, meaning that two Rivens for the same weapon with the same types of stats and with the same MR = The two Rivens will have IDENTICAL values.
I wouldn't MR-scale the negative stats, however, those should always remain as if the Riven's owner was MR8.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Azamagon

[AngryBAsian]

You are right of course it is like gambling. But one thing you are weomg about is that... people dont pay plat for resource booster for the sake of getting more kuva... People who habe the luxury of buying a resources booster usually habe wnough plat to simply buy the riven itself.

Also, most completionits are hardcore farmers, with enough patience to farm the kuva... which is real easy mimd you.

Rivens' original purpose was to make old and "obsolete" weapons actually usuable.  Now if DE was to do this without rivens, DE would most likely release powerful mods to replace rivens( thats cancer to farm). It would simply go up in Price and in the end... youll pay alot of money/plat if you are a completionist. As for gambling addicts...well All i can say is I am really enjoying the rivens since it gives me something to do other than fashion framing and I think its not fair for DE to remove a content enjoyed by or found acceptable by majority to be removed for the minority.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

They really need to put out more primed mods so that people who want to avoid rivens altogether have a choice to do so.

[Tyrian3k]

I think people would be fine with a decent grind if they could actually see themselves progress towards their reward.

RNG is the most frustrating way of progression. See how much people liked the archaeology profession in WoW.

Negative stats very often completely destroy a Riven roll. -100% damage? -80% fire rate? - 90% multishot? - 95% ammo maximum? Those Riven-breaking stats are much more prevalent on strong dispositions, even though those are the weapons that are supposed to benefit more.

 

Even if it's more expensive in terms of Kuva, I'd really like to see RNG reduced by allowing us to either roll stats individually or by allowing us to lock stats in.

Farming tons and tons of Kuva just to be disappointed a couple dozen times is extremely frustrating.

[ChuckMaverick]

20 minutes ago, Tyrian3k said:

Even if it's more expensive in terms of Kuva, I'd really like to see RNG reduced by allowing us to either roll stats individually or by allowing us to lock stats in.

The Kuva cost for locking one stat in on a re-roll would have to be at least 10x the normal cost to be comparable/fair.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

1 hour ago, Tyrian3k said:

I think people would be fine with a decent grind if they could actually see themselves progress towards their reward.

RNG is the most frustrating way of progression. See how much people liked the archaeology profession in WoW.

Negative stats very often completely destroy a Riven roll. -100% damage? -80% fire rate? - 90% multishot? - 95% ammo maximum? Those Riven-breaking stats are much more prevalent on strong dispositions, even though those are the weapons that are supposed to benefit more.

 

Even if it's more expensive in terms of Kuva, I'd really like to see RNG reduced by allowing us to either roll stats individually or by allowing us to lock stats in.

Farming tons and tons of Kuva just to be disappointed a couple dozen times is extremely frustrating.

Absolutely agree. This is a system that doesnt reward skill or effort. Its just RNG.

[Volinus7]

Working as intended 

 

[RoninJed]

20 hours ago, AngryBAsian said:

You are right of course it is like gambling. But one thing you are weomg about is that... people dont pay plat for resource booster for the sake of getting more kuva... People who habe the luxury of buying a resources booster usually habe wnough plat to simply buy the riven itself.

Also, most completionits are hardcore farmers, with enough patience to farm the kuva... which is real easy mimd you.

Rivens' original purpose was to make old and "obsolete" weapons actually usuable.  Now if DE was to do this without rivens, DE would most likely release powerful mods to replace rivens( thats cancer to farm). It would simply go up in Price and in the end... youll pay alot of money/plat if you are a completionist. As for gambling addicts...well All i can say is I am really enjoying the rivens since it gives me something to do other than fashion framing and I think its not fair for DE to remove a content enjoyed by or found acceptable by majority to be removed for the minority.

I think corrupted and Primed mods are definitely easier to get or farm for then god rivens any day hehe. Also I would bet all the tea in China that most people who farm kuva buy resource boosters...especially if they plan on ranking and selling rivens. I have lots of platinum from trades and I've bought some veiled rivens (also got as reward) here and there for cheap. I've rolled around ten to fifteen of these rivens ten to twelve times each and still dont have a God riven. It's gambling...and DE is tapping into those addictions which can be a real problem for some people. Oh well its legal hehe and these absurd riven prices will drop over time anyways.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

yes, gambling is a problem for many.. but it's not something that can be solved easily, besides, like many addictions it's self inflicted; you only become a gambling addict if you choose to.

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

Inb4 they add random boxes for plat

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

On 2/10/2017 at 3:59 PM, k05h said:

I have been seeing rivens in the trading post that go for 1000-2500 plat. I can barely imagine how someone feels that sells for these prices. This price also shows other players that they have to get into the rng of daily sortie, the dedicated farming of kuva and the re-rolling over and over again until they hit the god-riven jackpot.

I have friends with real life gambling addictions. And everything about rivens reminds of that. Rivens do use the same mechanics as slot machines do. When you insert more money in the form of paid boosters you can do more re-rolls in a shorter amount of time because you get more kuva. After each re-roll you wait for the plat jackpot instead of the money jackpot on slot machines. And doing this over and over again does count as conditioning for your brain the same way as slot machines. From what I see there is only short way from here to real life gambling addiction.
 
I think the whole mechanic of rivens does push the wrong buttons for those that are susceptible for gambling. Warframe was a game for completionists and collectors before we had rivens. Now I feel it turns into a very unhealthy direction.

Yup, I agree.

[TheSteelRat]

exactly.  In the last 32 days of doing sorties I have gotten one riven.  So I am already losing.

I also lost because it was for Opticor.  A weapon even, I put 6 forma into it, i have a hard time using  it because of the fire delay

I also lost because it was D polarity, which is only good for sure shot and Cryo rounds.  It limits the "build"

I don't even want to put in the effort to re-roll it, and farm the Kuva needed to do it.   32 kuva missions to get 10 re-rolls.

Too much RNG, and the only stats people really want increases the Damage

[Zepp_]

This thread is blowing my mind.  I think you are reading WAY too much into this.  If DE avoided any action that could adversely affect someone with low self-control, we wouldn't have anything past the title screen.

[OPdatSHIET]

Not saying that RNG is annoying a lot of times, but there are games that have way more RNG: chance taming pets, then the chance to get the right skills on them.

Weapons/armour: RNG to drop em, RNG to enhance them, RNG to get the right weapon/armour awakening (can't change it, so you have to farm for a better one), RNG to get the weapon awakening (secondary awakening that you can change with cash shop items), RNG to get ANOTHER enhancement on the weapon (again cash shop items).

And after that, you need multiple enhanced items to enhance your main item in the end: +20 is max, after that you have to combine 2 +20 for +21, up to +25... so 32 +20 items. the +20-+25 cant fail, so no RNG there, but +8-+20 is all RNG. To fail safe is to use cash shop items, to repair broken equipment you need cash shop items (is available in game, but very very hard (quantity, not quality)).

Even though this game is a MMORPG, all content is soloable at some point.

So yeah, even though is hard/annoying/RNG to farm for some mods or get the right Riven roll on Warframe, I would still say it's easier and/or less depressing.

[ComCray]

I think OP is right. The riven system and how it works IS gambling, for a large part, it's absolutely a slot machine. Adding the option to freeze some of the stats only compounds that IMO. I don't want to go and discuss the intricacies of addiction here but I DO think this is something DE needs to take a long hard look at.

Don't get me wrong, I love my rivens and can get behind the reasons for them to be there but... They do leave a sour taste in my mouth the way they are currently implemented...

[Heliopata]

The whole game is like that, sorties, raids,  every end screen misión, almost all drops,  even in the weapons with crit chance. You either got rng or focus levels of grind. 

The surge in the brain of getting what you want on something you don have control. Getting lucky. 

The genre would be casino shooter game

[centaurius]

The grinding on this game is getting me bored... I can accept the RNG, just make it balanced. And not 1% chance to get damage+multishot as it is now, while u get 50% chance to get ammo maximum+speed trigger.

[Soulden]

And coming from other games where rng is bread, butter, and toxic waste water, I stay away from Riven mods.

It was a flimsy concept in paper, and really bad implemented.
(Not saying that those who got "perfect" Rivens are not having fun with them...)

Should had been extensively tested prior to release, but working great for DE (financially).

My biggest fear is more a la Riven RNG mode additions in the future.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Souldend78

[(XBOX)LoneRyder3926]

You don't have to buy them or even use them and just leave them for the people who do

[Yagamilight123]

On 10/2/2017 at 8:59 PM, k05h said:

I have been seeing rivens in the trading post that go for 1000-2500 plat. I can barely imagine how someone feels that sells for these prices. This price also shows other players that they have to get into the rng of daily sortie, the dedicated farming of kuva and the re-rolling over and over again until they hit the god-riven jackpot.

I have friends with real life gambling addictions. And everything about rivens reminds of that. Rivens do use the same mechanics as slot machines do. When you insert more money in the form of paid boosters you can do more re-rolls in a shorter amount of time because you get more kuva. After each re-roll you wait for the plat jackpot instead of the money jackpot on slot machines. And doing this over and over again does count as conditioning for your brain the same way as slot machines. From what I see there is only short way from here to real life gambling addiction.
 
I think the whole mechanic of rivens does push the wrong buttons for those that are susceptible for gambling. Warframe was a game for completionists and collectors before we had rivens. Now I feel it turns into a very unhealthy direction.

AJAJAJAJAJ this is to much .... really ? compare that to real life ..... what is next ? we dont shoot the poor enemies because people is suceptible to become assassins ? . Use a little common sense before posting ... not that hard .

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

You realize "god roll" is a marketing ploy right? Like how SALE is tacked onto things that are actually full price. And there are a number of not so obvious stat combos that can create a very good riven that isn't crit or multishot based. Frankly there's too many variables and these overpriced mods are just that, overpriced.

[(PSN)selfproclaimed]

Sheeple. To help yous understand. http://www.serkantoto.com/2016/03/14/gacha-monetization-japan/

[(PSN)ElementalLeaf]

On 2/10/2017 at 6:59 PM, k05h said:

I have been seeing rivens in the trading post that go for 1000-2500 plat. I can barely imagine how someone feels that sells for these prices. This price also shows other players that they have to get into the rng of daily sortie, the dedicated farming of kuva and the re-rolling over and over again until they hit the god-riven jackpot.

I have friends with real life gambling addictions. And everything about rivens reminds of that. Rivens do use the same mechanics as slot machines do. When you insert more money in the form of paid boosters you can do more re-rolls in a shorter amount of time because you get more kuva. After each re-roll you wait for the plat jackpot instead of the money jackpot on slot machines. And doing this over and over again does count as conditioning for your brain the same way as slot machines. From what I see there is only short way from here to real life gambling addiction.
 
I think the whole mechanic of rivens does push the wrong buttons for those that are susceptible for gambling. Warframe was a game for completionists and collectors before we had rivens. Now I feel it turns into a very unhealthy direction.

So, what, because some people you know can't control themselves, we can't have nice things now?

I love the riven and reroll system, it allows me to get what I want or need and add diversity to my weapon choices, I don't want that getting taken away because someone feels that "it turns into a very unhealthy direction" god forbid we actually get nice things for once. And if someone DOES get a god roll for a god-tier weapon, then they more than deserve to sell it at whatever price they deem fit for such a great mod. And if someone can't deal with that, then the problem is on THEM, not the game or its riven system, go get THEM help instead of treating the game like its going in the bad direction instead of your gambling-addicted friends.

Because I don't know what your proposal is. Give everyone god-roll rivens so no one is "gambling" or take away the method entirely, neither of which are viable solutions. Seriously, this appears to be scapegoating at its finest. Rather than say your friend with the gambling addiction is the problem, it is the game and its riven system that is the problem.

[Azamagon]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)ElementalLeaf said:

Give everyone god-roll rivens so no one is "gambling" or take away the method entirely, neither of which are viable solutions.

How is that not a viable solution? By removing most of the RNG, you'd actually be able to, and I quote DE on this "to be creative" with your Rivens (because relying on RNG has NOTHING to do with being creative whatsoever), and it allows you to use most, if not all, weapons on higher level play.

How is this a BAD thing?