Limbo Rework Discussion and Feedback

[Synpai]

Rift should increase movement abilities at the least.

[PsiWarp]

Since it's dash-type move, I would really prefer if Rift Dash was moved from rolling to *spoiler* (basically in Operator mode, your Crouch + Sprint/Roll buttons). If it means sacrificing parkour mobility such as bullet jump + roll in mid-air to increase momentum, I would not like that.

One thing they didn't mention in either the stream and overview today was pickups inside Cataclysms (yes, even the mini-ones) are collectible now! I really hope that is an intended feature considering Limbo can leave a lot of bubbles littered across the map (1/3rd the size of the normal one, imagine that); if teammates cannot collect loot or use objects inside them, there will be hell to pay.

Overall, the rework is looking very promising! Master of the Rift, a name truly fitting this gentleframe.

Edited February 18, 2017 by PsiWarp

[Shadu]

27 minutes ago, DarkOvion said:

Thing is, they're shifting it from a scalpel frame, to an AOE spam frame.

The finesse is being replaced by something else....

The whole point of limbo currently, is fine granular control.

Making everything AoE based, and one of the powers lock out his abilities if those AoE's hit too many things is... concerning.

To get the most out of Limbo right now, you have to be constantly using all 4 powers....

If you constantly use all 4 with this rework as presented, you lose out on control - and might get locked out of your abilities entirely for a time.

Limbo is really good as-is.

I keep saying, I would rather people perceive Limbo as bad, rather than Limbo actually be bad.

Whether this re-work will actually be good or not... I don't know - but what I've seen, doesn't feel like the same Limbo

Gone from a very fine, directed Field Control to a spammy AoE frame - it moves differently, it plays differently, it behaves differently, it looks different... it's not an exaggeration, they are basically removing Limbo and replacing it with a different frame with a different concept.

Yes finesse is being replaced, thing is that you have to think about is whether a playstyle fits the gameplay.
One skill or skill set might look amazing, but you also have to take into account how it plays out in the game.
His current skill set looks amazing on it's own, but in reality within the game it doesn't fit.. it's too slow, it's too much single target and when you go for groups you're instantly dead.

Once enemies are sortie level currently you constantly have to stay in the rift and kill enemies one by one, otherwise you're instantly dead due to their damage and great accuracy. Now with his Banish, Rift Walk and Rift Surge this can be done but makes it insanely slow while other warframes can instantly clear that whole room, as such it isn't great.

Now you could say, "but it's great to have one warframe focused on single target kills and being able to avoid pretty much everything else" but then in the end you'll be carried by the rest of your squad since they can clear and defend objectives way better and are more useful than your slow play style.

Also, I've played Limbo a ton, he is since I've returned a few years ago my most played warframe (2nd highest on my profile) and after playing him a ton and then trying out all of the newer warframes.. no he really isn't good the way he currently is. He pales in comparison. I also think you're making the AoE part too big, his cataclysm has always been a huge AoE skill already and isn't only there to be used to protect an objective and the new Banish only seems to be a small AoE range. So I totally don't get your "very fine, directed field control frame to a spammy AoE frame" he already wasn't THAT single target based from the start (it's where he was best at yes, but only because he would instantly die if he used his cataclysm often enough).

Edited February 18, 2017 by Shadu

[Carnage2K4]

I mostly agree with OP, however what I didn't see touched on was Banish on allies...

Lately I've been seeing increasing numbers of trolling limbos, constantly throwing you into the rift while you're in mid melee attack or firing so suddenly as you're killing things, you stop killing things and need to roll out, having someone do this every 5-10 seconds is beyond irritating.

Using Banish on allies IMO should be a PROC on allies that is off by default and allows the player to use Limbos rift walk in and out either in the same way Limbo does or via some other key combo like double click roll.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Carnage2K4
Grammar

[LSG501]

The only bit I'm concerned with (and I was from the very moment they started talking about it a few months back) is the entering/leaving rift via a standard motion.  I can see it now that you 'roll' at the wrong moment and get one shot by a heavy hitter enemy. 

Until we get to try that it's a bit hard to tell if this is another ash rework where it basically causes the frame to gather dust in the armoury or if it's one that makes people use limbo more...

[Jeahanne]

1 minute ago, PsiWarp said:

Since it's dash-type move, I would really prefer if Rift Dash was moved from rolling to sliding (basically in Operator mode, your Crouch + Sprint/Roll buttons). If it means sacrificing parkour mobility such as bullet jump + roll in mid-air to increase momentum, I would not like that.

I highly doubt they'd remove that capability. That's pretty central to movement in the game at all at this point, and why it's such a downside for Ivara since it's really the only thing balancing out the power of her Prowl, especially with her augment.

I could be wrong, but the way I assumed it would be working is just replacing the roll in general. I.E. you'll only go into or out of the rift specifically when you tap "ctrl" or whatever you have dodge mapped to now, the same way you would to get out of his current version of Banish.

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

3 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

One thing they didn't mention in either the stream and overview today was pickups inside Cataclysms (yes, even the mini-ones) are collectible now! I really hope that is an intended feature considering Limbo can leave a lot of bubbles littered across the map (1/3rd the size of the normal one, imagine that); if teammates cannot collect loot or use objects inside them, there will be hell to pay.

Yeah I noticed that too around the 48 49 minute mark on the devstream. It caught my eye when limbo was in the rift bubble and collected Endo when he did his roll animation. Idk if that was intended or not

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Why would you even focus on a single bombard anymore, now that they wanna hand out the tools to do so much more? Not that they've announced to give him A++ CC and thus the defense he was missing so long? They said that surge is gonna work similar to molecular prime, meaning that not focusing on one but rather on many would still give you the desired results...and just think about the possibilitys, having the luxury to aim with a bow, beein guaranteed to smack a face in with a tonkor? Still beein able to shred fully stunned enemys to bits with melee...

 

I Personally really like what they plan with him. I never was much of a fan of this whole 2 layer thing the rift had going but now he's at least gonna be hella usefull with it.

Edited February 18, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Carnage2K4]

I mostly agree with OP, however what I didn't see touched on was Banish on allies...

Lately I've been seeing increasing numbers of trolling limbos, constantly throwing you into the rift while you're in mid melee attack or firing so suddenly as you're killing things, you stop killing things and need to roll out, having someone do this every 5-10 seconds is beyond irritating.

Using Banish on allies IMO should be a PROC on allies that is off by default and allows the player to use Limbos rift walk in and out either in the same way Limbo does or via some other key combo like double click roll.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Carnage2K4
Grammar

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

3 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

The only bit I'm concerned with (and I was from the very moment they started talking about it a few months back) is the entering/leaving rift via a standard motion.  I can see it now that you 'roll' at the wrong moment and get one shot by a heavy hitter enemy. 

Yeah I noticed that aswell. Limbo doesn't stand still will entering and leaving the rift. That's also a concern for me aswell. Not sure if I like that

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

2 minutes ago, Carnage2K4 said:

I mostly agree with OP, however what I didn't see touched on was Banish on allies...

Lately I've been seeing increasing numbers of trolling limbos, constantly throwing you into the rift while you're in mid melee attack or firing so suddenly as your killing things, you stop killing thing and need to roll out, having someone do this every 5-10 seconds is beyond irritating.

Using Banish on allies IMO should be a PROC on allies that is off by default and allows the player to use Limbos rift walk in and out either in the same way Limbo does or via some other key combo like double click roll.

Mmmm that last part could certainly be interesting. If you don't want the proc. I guess you could always back flip out of it like you can volt speed if you wish not to have it.

[Jeahanne]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)Cash201293 said:

Yeah I noticed that aswell. Limbo doesn't stand still will entering and leaving the rift. That's also a concern for me aswell. Not sure if I like that

As it is he has to stand still to enter the rift anyway, so worst case this applies no real change.

 

1 minute ago, Carnage2K4 said:

I mostly agree with OP, however what I didn't see touched on was Banish on allies...

Lately I've been seeing increasing numbers of trolling limbos, constantly throwing you into the rift while you're in mid melee attack or firing so suddenly as your killing things, you stop killing thing and need to roll out, having someone do this every 5-10 seconds is beyond irritating.

Using Banish on allies IMO should be a PROC on allies that is off by default and allows the player to use Limbos rift walk in and out either in the same way Limbo does or via some other key combo like double click roll.

And I've seen people like this as well. I like your idea, that could be interesting. You'd need a really obvious and self explanatory icon for it though, so people who aren't familiar with Limbo would know what to do with it. There are already a lot of people who don't know you can just dodge roll out of the rift.

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

2 minutes ago, Carnage2K4 said:

I mostly agree with OP, however what I didn't see touched on was Banish on allies...

Lately I've been seeing increasing numbers of trolling limbos, constantly throwing you into the rift while you're in mid melee attack or firing so suddenly as your killing things, you stop killing thing and need to roll out, having someone do this every 5-10 seconds is beyond irritating.

Using Banish on allies IMO should be a PROC on allies that is off by default and allows the player to use Limbos rift walk in and out either in the same way Limbo does or via some other key combo like double click roll.

Mmmm that last part could certainly be interesting. If you don't want the proc. I guess you could always back flip out of it like you can volt speed if you wish not to have it.

[PsiWarp]

4 minutes ago, Jeahanne said:

I highly doubt they'd remove that capability. That's pretty central to movement in the game at all at this point, and why it's such a downside for Ivara since it's really the only thing balancing out the power of her Prowl, especially with her augment.

I could be wrong, but the way I assumed it would be working is just replacing the roll in general. I.E. you'll only go into or out of the rift specifically when you tap "ctrl" or whatever you have dodge mapped to now, the same way you would to get out of his current version of Banish.

Whoops, think I mixed up my hotkeys and maneuvers there. Instead of sliding, meant to say Operator's Void Dash but that's also bound differently.

Honestly, as long as the bullet jump + roll movement combo remains untouched with Limbo's new dash, it'll do. Bonus points if they can figure out other hotkeys so players don't have to dash to enter/exit rift, as we enjoyed the luxury of Rift Walk's instantaneous deactivation for so long.

[DaftMeat]

Actually, the one thing I find lacking is the inability to isolate whether you are trying to use Banish on Enemies or Friendly units.

I was hoping they would add something like quick tap Banish to only target enemies, and hold Banish to only target friendlies. This would make it easier to banish a downed teammate and revive them safely so that they have time to get up and get sorted before getting ganked by surrounding enemies again.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

They listen to selective feedback. Sub-par Ash "rework" mag "rework" sayrn "rework" 

Limbo imho is the only full rework they got right..from what i see atm. 

[evilfluffy]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

They listen to selective feedback. Sub-par Ash "rework" mag "rework" sayrn "rework" 

Limbo imho is the only full rework they got right..from what i see atm. 

Nothing wrong with those reworks unless you miss 1 button wonders.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

4 minutes ago, evilfluffy said:

Nothing wrong with those reworks unless you miss 1 button wonders.

negative, lots wrong. pages of feedback was missed on these "reworks" even pre "rework" its like they did not read any of it. 

Edited February 18, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

tell that to those who provided 90+ pages of feedback POST ash rework and probably a few hundreds over the last year PRE rework

they really listened

rotfl

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

Just now, arm4geddon-117 said:

tell that to those who provided 90+ pages of feedback POST ash rework and probably a few hundreds over the last year PRE rework

they really listened

rotfl

Exactly my point. TY

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

32 minutes ago, DaftMeat said:

Actually, the one thing I find lacking is the inability to isolate whether you are trying to use Banish on Enemies or Friendly units.

I was hoping they would add something like quick tap Banish to only target enemies, and hold Banish to only target friendlies. This would make it easier to banish a downed teammate and revive them safely so that they have time to get up and get sorted before getting ganked by surrounding enemies again.

That's an interesting point aswell. Would be frustrating if your using banish on a target and your teammate gets caught within that aoe and gets banished too.

[2Peter3Nine]

Limbo now shifts between the rift while dodging. Garbage.

I use the dodge function so much i key'd it to my right mouse clicker.

It will be very annoying, rift switching every time I press it.

Instead just shoot your feet with Banish to switch rift walking on and off.

 

Banish - Garbage

Limbo will die constantly in sorties if he brings in more than one enemy in at a time.

 

New 2nd - Woah that's pretty cool.

But garbage.

Not being able to use your powers for any amount of time,

just because there were too many enemies or projectiles in the rift is by far the worst thing.

Instead you should make it so when you reach the limit,

the ones affected remain stopped,

but any that enter after are not stopped.

Like Vauban's Bastille, it can only hold X enemies at a time, and when the max is reached,

any other enemies move through it like they would if it wasn't their.

 

Rift Surge - Sounds pretty cool.

But instead of making pockets of rift caused by the arc-lightning-explosion thing,

how bout magnetic anomalies instead?

It could be a very nifty CC function.

 

Cataclysm - The same power - Garbage.

It already did damage on start, it already staggered, it already did damage at the end.

The only thing they changed is the stagger is more effective.

This is his ult! His Ultimate Power!

It should be something dreadful and scary, not just some explosion stun explosion.

 

My suggestion,

range and duration are the same as they are now,

Enemies inside the cataclysm,

deal 15/30/45/60% less damage.

take 15/30/45/60% more damage.

are dealt 25/50/75/100 finisher damage every second.

~~~~~~~~~~

PS,

Most players hate it when you rift them.

Another reason to make banish not an AoE.

 

 

~~~~~~~~

 

40 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

Are you jelly when you see me rolling?

I'll never stop rolling, especially with how useful it can be.

 

Hey look, he needs to use his 2nd to make his 1st usful now. Garbage.

They didn't need to change his first at all, it already did a knockdown, it worked great.

 

Yeah, of course, but they said if there are too many things being stopped the power turns off,

and you can't use your rift powers, (all his powers) for a time.

 

Hey, he needs to use his 2nd to make his ULTIMATE POWER useful. Garbage.

At least the enemies that enter the cataclysm get staggered for 2 seconds, giving you plenty of time to... oh, he's dead.

Right, because limbo is super squishy.

 

With this build limbo is actually less useful in a sortie, at least for the long run.

Sure, he'll be able to stop projectiles and enemies inside the rift with his 2nd,

but that's not going to stop the enemies having tons are health.

You're going to have to start time to hurt the enemies, and in that time you'll die.

Especially with the short range.

It's almost self defeating.

Here is a glimpse at all his powers being used effectively in a sortie.

Cataclysm is on, Surge is on, Rift Stop is on, limbo is riftwalking,

X enemies and projectiles inside the cataclysm are stopped, player projectiles too.

These enemies are level 100, and have tons of health.

 

Failure one,

Someone in the group has a autofire weapon, and quickly exceeds the stop limit,

limbo's powers are all turned off and he can't use them for a while.

Limbo dies.

 

Failure two,

The cataclysm is full, and limbo has set up as many projectiles as he can without maxing and braking the rift.

He starts time so his projectiles can hit enemies. They barely take any damage and kill limbo.

 

Failure three,

Limbo spams enemies with his melee weapon in the cataclysm,

limbo will need to spam melee for a pretty long time on each enemy.

if they take damage on hit, he'll still need to hit them a lot,

giving plenty of time for more enemies to show up, and possible exceed the limit and break the rift.

Leaving limbo worthless and dead.

 

Failure four,

Limbo spams enemies with his melee weapon in the cataclysm,

if they take damage on time restart, he'll need to start time for the damage to take effect,

since you can't tell how much damage you dealt overall, the amount would likely not be enough and they'd kill limbo.

 

Limbo needs more CC than a 2 second stager if he's going to survive level 100 missions.

 

5 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

Limbo is rifting, and time is stopped,

he banished 9 enemies,

they don't get knocked to the ground because time is stopped.

Limbo starts time, they fall down, limbo stops time, they stay down,

 

follow through one,

limbo uses the down finisher melee attack on an enemy,

it doesn't do much damage, so he does it again, eventually he kills the first enemy,

he moves to the 2nd enemy, time starts back up because it possibly has a short time,

other enemies get up and kill limbo.

 

follow through two,

limbo uses the down finisher melee attack on an enemy,

it doesn't do much damage, so he does it again, eventually he kills the first enemy,

he moves to the 2nd enemy, time starts back up because it possibly has a short time,

he tried to banish the remaining enemies to remove them from the rift so they can't hurt him,

but he also brings in more enemies into the rift, and is killed.

 

follow through three,

limbo uses the down finisher melee attack on an enemy,

it doesn't do much damage, so he does it again, eventually he kills the first enemy,

he moves to the 2nd enemy, time stop is a toggleable ability, so it's till on.

he kills the 2nd enemy eventually, and the 3rd, and 4th, he runs out of energy,

he is now helpless and dies.

 

follow through four,

limbo uses the down finisher melee attack on an enemy,

it doesn't do much damage, so he does it again, eventually he kills the first enemy,

he moves to the 2nd enemy, time stop is a toggleable ability, so it's till on.

he kills the 2nd enemy eventually, and the 3rd, and 4th, and eventually all 9.

He then repeats the process, how boring.

 

follow through five,

limbo has a max damage opticore, charges it, shoots,

time is stopped though and the projectile hangs there.

he charge shoots at each downed stopped enemy, then starts time.

they are hit, most are dead, some are still alive,

stops time again, charge shoots at the survivors, then starts time again, the 9 enemies are now all dead.

 

It really doesn't change how i'd play him, just makes it more annoying.

 

How to play limbo,

 

Banish Assassin,

riftwalk as much as possible,

banish enemy, kill them with powerful weapon,

banish next enemy, kill them with powerful weapon.

repeat till they are all dead.

 

Cataclysm Sniper,

Cataclysm a far away area while rifting and surging,

shoot enemies inside the cataclysm with super powerful sniper from a safe place.

 

Rift Reviver,

riftwalk, and revive fallen allies without worry of getting downed while reviving them.

Most helpful in areas with ramparts, and sortie bosses.

 

Rift Decoy/Shield,

riftwalk at enemies, staying between then and your allies.

they will more than likely target you since you are closer.

Most helpful in areas with ramparts, and sortie bosses.

 

Banish having an AoE can be very self destructive,

what if one or more the enemies is resistant to stagger and knockdown? You're dead.

 

The new 2nd is very cool but ultimately self destroying, since it comes with the chance of not being able to use your powers for a time.

You also have to turn it off to deal the damage in the first place, so it also wastes energy when you can just do something more useful.

Like useing the broken scepter to create health and energy orbs for the team.

 

The new 3rd seems like it would also be hinderous.

I don't want random pockets of rift opening while limboing.

One opens behind you? you're dead because you're squishy.

 

2 extra seconds of reaction time is not going to make cataclysm better.

If it made enemies take more damage, and deal less damage, then it would be one of the most useful powers in the game.

Cataclysm sniper build would be endgame-enabled.

Hek, that alone would make limbo endgame-enabled, trial-enabled, solo-sortie-enabled.

30 minutes ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

Right, so don't use one of the most basic and quick maneuvering movement tools we have. And if we accidentally slide in combat, we're just screwed? Gotcha, that's definitely good game design. 

Depends on what you Banish. If you accidentally nab an Ancient with Infested or Corrupted, then the Ancient is the only thing affected by the knockdown and everything else is free to attack you at will. It may just be one enemy, but it's a fairly common enemy in half of the factions in Warframe. So that power should be dependent on whether there's a certain enemy around? Banishing singularly was safer and more effective, even though it was slower. 

 

It's a cool redesign, but it also makes him WAY weaker than before. He's more vulnerable to enemies in his own plane of existence and has no way to boost his own damage to make him actually deadly in the Rift as Rift Surge did before. Ranged combat inside the paused Rift is now a gigantic f*ck you. And if you pause too many enemies or projectiles in the Rift it kicks you out and cancels your Rift walk, that's definitely a good idea for a Warframe that largely relies on not getting hit because he's made of glass. If it pauses enemies, then there's no need to pause projectiles because they can't shoot at you when paralyzed. If they didn't treat it stupidly, then the technical limitations would be much higher and it wouldn't give Limbo cause to get murdered just because enemy spawning and health levels are broken as hell. 

 

Like I said, it's cool. But the problem is that DE seemed more obsessed with cool than high-level functionality as he was capable of before. DE could have approached this dozens of different ways, and they chose something that is flashier than it is effective. Even in the goddamn Devstream, Rebecca nearly died half of a dozen times playing with Limbo and she knew how his abilities were supposed to work. How does that look for people who are currently proficient with him? Not well, not well at all. 

Edited February 18, 2017 by General_Durandal

[(XBOX)Lem0n Sama]

1 Can a Nullifier break the new passive? If so this would not only be the first passive to be broken by a Nullifier, but break all of Limbo's kit and synergy. 

2 Can his 1 also be used single target? Please? 

3 His 2 looks fine (and fun), but could use a bit more explanation. Is the ability draining energy the entire time? Does it drain per mob? 

4 Not a fan of his 3, sure it was said he could hit mobs outside the rift, but it's never going to be used for that. It's not much different from his current 3, which was arguably his weakest skill.

5 Please make Cataclysm something else. It's actually not a good ult, and from the looks, it seems you want us to spam it. No, this will drive squad mates crazy, it doesn't do anything to help a squad, it actually hurts the rest of the squad more than helps.

 

None of the rework seems to fix or change how Limbo imposes on his squad, it doesn't change how badly he works in groups. He needs to be changed more than this.

Edited February 18, 2017 by (XB1)MrOrionQuestHD
Limbo working with a team explained.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

I think Banish was made AoE to make banishing allies less jarring. If they're spamming melee on enemies, they will continue to hit them since they're all banished now too.

Also doesn't Limbo have the fastest sprint speed in the game right next to Loki?

[TwevOWNED]

1 minute ago, General_Durandal said:

Limbo now shifts between the rift while dodging. Garbage.

I use the dodge function so much i key'd it to my right mouse clicker.

It will be very annoying, rift switching every time I press it.

Instead just shoot your feet with Banish to switch rift walking on and off.

Then don't roll? 

Quote

Banish - Garbage

Limbo will die constantly in sorties if he brings in more than one enemy in at a time

Timestop and knockdown is more than enough time to kill enemies.

Quote

New 2nd - Woah that's pretty cool.

But garbage.

Number of enemies held will likely be affected by power strength. Stopping bullets is eh, but we live in a melee meta so just hit them.

Quote

Cataclysm - The same power - Garbage.

The knockdown now hits enemies that enter after it is deployed, instead of now where it just lets them in. That, with timestop, is enough to make it incredibly strong and denying an area.

Can't speak for the 3 as I don't know the numbers or enough of its interactions. Most likely you won't be able to use it in conjunction with 4, but we'll see. Overall it is an improvement over the current version.