Euphona: more drawbacks than the stats reveal

[Fari]

I was really excited for this weapon, thought it'd become my new go to secondary- but honestly these drawbacks make me feel inclined to stay with Lex. 

For starters, something that's not necessary a negative, but is a thing: Slug is a projectile. It's not necessarily the new sniper secondary. That's okay, but on top of that this thing has fairly heavy bullet drop. Hard enough that it'll just dip into the ground in less than 70m, but require some over aiming before then. On top of that the accuracy is actually REALLY low while not scoping.

Even up close you're not necessarily gonna hit a target with Slug. Multishot largely makes up for that, but unless you're point blank, even the primary fire could easily only have one bullet hit out of 3. Or only one landed on the head, or even none landing on head. 

Speaking of up close, the shotgun mode. The damage fall off on this thing is massive. You're gonna do peanut damage more than 10m away from enemies. Figures the shotgun mode is the hitscan, 'cause it might as well be a shorter range of Zarr's alt fire for what it's actually gonna damage.

Admittedly, status procs don't need to be within optimal falloff range, but if you want to put enough status mods on this weapon for it to do that well, you're gonna be taking off one of those multishot mods that helps actually land shots, or a crit mod. Build troubles just add to this thing's issues.

Then there's stuff like the fire rate, the magazine size, and the reload speed. They're all things that I thought were well balanced, but they are generally drawbacks compared to other weapons. When all these drawbacks that weren't so apparent on paper crop up, they just add onto it.

Honestly I wouldn't have bothered with feedback, but DE did ask for it on Euphona and Helios before their release. And here it is, I thought this weapon would be my new top secondary, in actuality, maybe it'll be top 5? Maybe not even that.

At minimum, I'd at least fix the accuracy on Slug. It'd be nice if it didn't have as hard bullet drop limiting max range too. Above all, reduce that shotgun fall off damage. The shotgun as is pretty much seems exclusively for status procs, but building it for that just further gimps the positives it does have.

 

*edit* since some are having trouble, I figured I'd add to the OP what I mean by accuracy.

 

The accuracy stat itself, that causes bullets to fly wildly off to the side, is bad if you're not scoping. It's like heavy caliber ogris. Why does the gun need to have this? Specifically while not scoping.

Edited March 1, 2017 by NearoC

[(PSN)SentientSickness]

Give us hit scan on both modes at at least put in slug and remove from blast.

also give us proper altfire mechanics like the zarr not the current stuff

[AEP8FlyBoy]

Makes you wonder why the falloff on the Euphona doesn't work like the falloff on Primary Shotguns. I thought that the maximum damage a shot could lose on a Primary shotgun is about 50% at any range, but it's nearly all of the Euphona's damage and in just about 10-15m.

Granted, that it's primary fire mode is quite powerful, you do have to compensate quite heavily at ranges of longer than 30m and if the targets are moving, if you want to hit that sweet crit-headshot. (which isn't necessarily a bad thing.)

I have yet to actually use the weapon so my opinion may change. But for now, I still think it can be redeemed in its drawbacks, simply from the sheer power of the weapon itself.

(Also adding a proper firemode switch instead of alt-firing with Middle Mouse would be nice as well.)

Edited March 1, 2017 by AEP8FlyBoy

[Klavinmour]

My Euphona is currently sitting on 100.5% crit chance.
Damage isn't a problem, and neither is the bullet drop.
The bullet drop is easy to manage, seriously after one or two shots you can easily adjust your aiming to make up for the drop.

I honestly can't see where you're having trouble with the gun's accuracy, I'm having no trouble hitting targets.

I don't understand why you talk about status, it's clearly not meant to be a status weapon with 2.5% status chance default.
It's a crit weapon, and the first proper crit shotgun on top of that!

Reload is fine, 2 seconds is not horrible, then again I've been using the AkLex Prime for a while now and am quite used to their 3 second reload time.

The 5 clip size makes perfect sense as a balancing point.
100.5% crit chance, 5x crit multiplier, 3K Impact and 3K Corrosive is a lot of damage, especially when you've got that chance for red crits.
A Riven mod will potentially give better red crit chance, but I doubt there's any yet to start working on that.

I'm using Critical Delay, and it really hasn't effected the fire rate, I find the fire rate to be acceptable.

 

If you're finding it difficult to land shots with this weapon, I'd say it's not the weapon's fault...

 

EDIT: I would actually like to see a fire mode switch feature instead of the current way it works.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Klavinmour

[Blade_Wolf_16]

15 minutes ago, Klavinmour said:

I don't understand why you talk about status, it's clearly not meant to be a status weapon with 2.5% status chance default.
It's a crit weapon, and the first proper crit shotgun on top of that!

If I remember correctly what other people said, the Shotgun mode has reverse Status/Crit, wich means it has a lot of Status Chances and almost no Crit Chances. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Blade_Wolf_16

[BansheePrime]

20 minutes ago, Klavinmour said:

My Euphona is currently sitting on 100.5% crit chance.
Damage isn't a problem, and neither is the bullet drop.
The bullet drop is easy to manage, seriously after one or two shots you can easily adjust your aiming to make up for the drop.

I honestly can't see where you're having trouble with the gun's accuracy, I'm having no trouble hitting targets.

I don't understand why you talk about status, it's clearly not meant to be a status weapon with 2.5% status chance default.
It's a crit weapon, and the first proper crit shotgun on top of that!

Reload is fine, 2 seconds is not horrible, then again I've been using the AkLex Prime for a while now and am quite used to their 3 second reload time.

The 5 clip size makes perfect sense as a balancing point.
100.5% crit chance, 5x crit multiplier, 3K Impact and 3K Corrosive is a lot of damage, especially when you've got that chance for red crits.
A Riven mod will potentially give better red crit chance, but I doubt there's any yet to start working on that.

I'm using Critical Delay, and it really hasn't effected the fire rate, I find the fire rate to be acceptable.

 

If you're finding it difficult to land shots with this weapon, I'd say it's not the weapon's fault...

 

EDIT: I would actually like to see a fire mode switch feature instead of the current way it works.

I was gonna say something. But I was gonna say exactly this. I REALLY don't see a problem with the bullet drop since its so easy to adjust for. It's not like its even a slow bullet.

Edited March 1, 2017 by maj.death

[Klavinmour]

1 minute ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

If I remember correctly what other people said, the Shotgun mode have reverse Status/Crit, wich means it has a lot of Status Chances and almost no Crit Chances. 

Just looked up those stats on the Wiki.

Yeah that's how it works, but really there is no point in modding for status, and absolutely no point in modding for both modes.

If you want a status shotgun you've got Boar Prime and Tigris Prime or Ak/Bronco Prime.

And modding for two sets of status often makes both stats you're modding for fall short of their potential.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

IMO the damage falloff on the shotgun is way too extreme, otherwise I'm enjoying the gun. It could always use a faster reload speed :P

[Chroia]

1 hour ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

I thought that the maximum damage a shot could lose on a Primary shotgun is about 50% at any range,

That's what Scott said before the shotgun rework.
It's 33%, at least on the Hek.

[Fari]

1 hour ago, Klavinmour said:

My Euphona is currently sitting on 100.5% crit chance.
Damage isn't a problem, and neither is the bullet drop.
The bullet drop is easy to manage, seriously after one or two shots you can easily adjust your aiming to make up for the drop.

I honestly can't see where you're having trouble with the gun's accuracy, I'm having no trouble hitting targets.

I don't understand why you talk about status, it's clearly not meant to be a status weapon with 2.5% status chance default.
It's a crit weapon, and the first proper crit shotgun on top of that!

Reload is fine, 2 seconds is not horrible, then again I've been using the AkLex Prime for a while now and am quite used to their 3 second reload time.

The 5 clip size makes perfect sense as a balancing point.
100.5% crit chance, 5x crit multiplier, 3K Impact and 3K Corrosive is a lot of damage, especially when you've got that chance for red crits.
A Riven mod will potentially give better red crit chance, but I doubt there's any yet to start working on that.

I'm using Critical Delay, and it really hasn't effected the fire rate, I find the fire rate to be acceptable.

 

If you're finding it difficult to land shots with this weapon, I'd say it's not the weapon's fault...

 

EDIT: I would actually like to see a fire mode switch feature instead of the current way it works.

-The terrible accuracy is objective fact, do you exclusively fire it while scoping? That gets rid of all accuracy issues, but while firing normally the bullets can go extremely off. Try firing it at a wall you're not standing up against, you can see how far it spreads 70% of the time. Sometimes all 3 bullets are still centered, usually 2 aren't, typically at best they're still not directly centered.

>First proper crit shotgun

Sorry to burst your bubble, but actually.... the alt fire's crit is as low as the primary fire's status. like 2.5% crit chance. This isn't a crit shotgun at all, it's a status shotgun, which is exactly what me mentioning status is about- the status on alt fire is 30% base, as the primary is crit.

Again, things like clip are good, it's just something that is valid to consider in relation to other things about it. It's relatively small, which is fine, but part of the whole. You'll note things like clip and reload aren't on my list of things I'd change about it.

Get out of here with your "you're just bad if the gun misses shots", when you're the one who doesn't even know the alt fire's stats at all and thought it was crit. You can stand in simaris and see exactly how bad the accuracy is on Slug shots. 

Also changing it to mode switch would make this weapon worse. The fact alt fire is how it is is the best part about it. Stradavar makes sense for mode change with an automatic mode. Zarr would be better functioning like Euphona too honestly, instead of the other way around.

[Klavinmour]

2 minutes ago, NearoC said:

-The terrible accuracy is objective fact, do you exclusively fire it while scoping? That gets rid of all accuracy issues, but while firing normally the bullets can go extremely off. Try firing it at a wall you're not standing up against, you can see how far it spreads 70% of the time. Sometimes all 3 bullets are still centered, usually 2 aren't, typically at best they're still not directly centered.

>First proper crit shotgun

Sorry to burst your bubble, but actually.... the alt fire's crit is as low as the primary fire's status. like 2.5% crit chance. This isn't a crit shotgun at all, it's a status shotgun, which is exactly what me mentioning status is about- the status on alt fire is 30% base, as the primary is crit.

Again, things like clip are good, it's just something that is valid to consider in relation to other things about it. It's relatively small, which is fine, but part of the whole. You'll note things like clip and reload aren't on my list of things I'd change about it.

Get out of here with your "you're just bad if the gun misses shots", when you're the one who doesn't even know the alt fire's stats at all and thought it was crit. You can stand in simaris and see exactly how bad the accuracy is on Slug shots. 

Also changing it to mode switch would make this weapon worse. The fact alt fire is how it is is the best part about it. Stradavar makes sense for mode change with an automatic mode. Zarr would be better functioning like Euphona too honestly, instead of the other way around.

You do realise both modes are shotgun blasts yes?
There are multiple pellets in the standard fire, just because they don't spread doesn't mean it's not a shotgun.
The Stradavar doesn't become not a rifle just because you switched modes.
Euphona IS a shotgun in both firing modes. But what would I know? I'm just a shotgun fanatic who uses shotguns 95% of the time.

I almost exclusively fire the weapon without zooming in, I often hate "aim down sights" in Warframe, and only ever use it in cases where I'm firing at something roughly 70-100m away.

I would use Simaris, but it's a terrible place for testing accuracy, targets don't move enough, there's not enough obstacles in the way.
It's just bad, live missions are far better for testing your abilities to play the game.

Oh and if you bothered to read my second comment you'd see that I made note of the alt-fire's reversed specs, and how relevant they are.

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

70m is a lot 

[Fari]

Just now, Klavinmour said:

You do realise both modes are shotgun blasts yes?
There are multiple pellets in the standard fire, just because they don't spread doesn't mean it's not a shotgun.
The Stradavar doesn't become not a rifle just because you switched modes.
Euphona IS a shotgun in both firing modes. But what would I know? I'm just a shotgun fanatic who uses shotguns 95% of the time.

I almost exclusively fire the weapon without zooming in, I often hate "aim down sights" in Warframe, and only ever use it in cases where I'm firing at something roughly 70-100m away.

I would use Simaris, but it's a terrible place for testing accuracy, targets don't move enough, there's not enough obstacles in the way.
It's just bad, live missions are far better for testing your abilities to play the game.

Oh and if you bothered to read my second comment you'd see that I made note of the alt-fire's reversed specs, and how relevant they are.

You do realize you're straight up.. WRONG? Right? You keep saying things that are blatantly false, and then doubling down.

The primary fire is a single pellet. Nothing about it is shotgun-like. Is Dread a shotgun now?

What would you know indeed. 

The only reason Stradavar makes the mode switching a good thing is because holding down the alt fire button for prolonged periods of time wouldn't be pleasant. For single shots that's quite good, far preferable to a toggle where you only have access to one at a time.

You're not supposed to use Simaris to test the targets anyways, you're supposed to SEE how far the bullets fly off target. This isn't some microscopic thing, this is half your screen away from the crosshair horizontally.

You didn't exactly edit your original comment, as you should if you don't want that point to be acknowledged.

[Fari]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

70m is a lot 

Yeah, 70s not a big issue, not being able to shoot farther than a certain point is just one of a collective group of fairly minor things.

It's not like any of these issues break the gun, I just don't think it needs that many total small issues.

[Klavinmour]

1 minute ago, NearoC said:

You do realize you're straight up.. WRONG? Right? You keep saying things that are blatantly false, and then doubling down.

The primary fire is a single pellet. Nothing about it is shotgun-like. Is Dread a shotgun now?

What would you know indeed. 

The only reason Stradavar makes the mode switching a good thing is because holding down the alt fire button for prolonged periods of time wouldn't be pleasant. For single shots that's quite good, far preferable to a toggle where you only have access to one at a time.

You're not supposed to use Simaris to test the targets anyways, you're supposed to SEE how far the bullets fly off target. This isn't some microscopic thing, this is half your screen away from the crosshair horizontally.

You didn't exactly edit your original comment, as you should if you don't want that point to be acknowledged.

Oh okay, so everyone is simply imagining the cluster of pellets in a tight clump when you fire normally?
It must be a singular solid mass that's coming out of the gun, that must explain how I kill targets in a line when I've not modded for any punch through too.

The Zarr fires in a similar method to the Euphona Prime, yet it has mode switching like the Stradavar.

You are exaggerating the bullet drop dramatically.
From my time with the gun the closest I ever got to what you're describing is a 2cm drop from the reticle at about 80m, that is perfectly acceptable and easy to compensate for.

[Fari]

3 minutes ago, Klavinmour said:

Oh okay, so everyone is simply imagining the cluster of pellets in a tight clump when you fire normally?
It must be a singular solid mass that's coming out of the gun, that must explain how I kill targets in a line when I've not modded for any punch through too.

The Zarr fires in a similar method to the Euphona Prime, yet it has mode switching like the Stradavar.

You are exaggerating the bullet drop dramatically.
From my time with the gun the closest I ever got to what you're describing is a 2cm drop from the reticle at about 80m, that is perfectly acceptable and easy to compensate for.

I'm not talking about the dang bullet drop, I'm talking about the accuracy.

 

Or would you say this is accurate, hm? The one shot is mostly centered, slightly to the left, but the other is nearly off by the entire pillar, and it was only continuing to move farther to the right after this frame. Not only that, while S#&$ particular shot was fairly aligned vertically, I've had multiple shots that shoot out significantly ABOVE the crosshair to one side. It's not like only horizontally is the terrible accuracy while not scoping. 

Also, no, I'm not exaggerating anything, I've made it clear all these drawbacks are relatively minor, I just think there's too many total drawbacks, not that any of them are big ones.

As I said, I wish Zarr worked like Euphona does. Just because it works the same as Stradavar doesn't mean Stradavar is the better method for Zarr to work. Zarr can't even switch modes directly after shooting it, try shooting the explosive mode and immediately pressing alt fire. It doesn't. Thankfully it can swap while reloading, as it didn't used to, but it's still a clunky system, that I'd happily trade for the shotgun just firing on alt fire.

Also.. sigh, you're also wrong about the bullet having any innate punch through or whatever either. You're probably confused, because you're modding for multishot as any secondary is, which does mean multiple bullets and hitting multiple things, without modding for it you don't and won't hit a target behind the first one. Well, there's no point in arguing any more. I'd already fully gotten my case out there in the OP, and you don't care about reason.

 

[Klavinmour]

2 minutes ago, NearoC said:

I'm not talking about the dang bullet drop, I'm talking about the accuracy.

 

Or would you say this is accurate, hm? The one shot is mostly centered, slightly to the left, but the other is nearly off by the entire pillar, and it was only continuing to move farther to the right after this frame. Not only that, while S#&$ particular shot was fairly aligned vertically, I've had multiple shots that shoot out significantly ABOVE the crosshair to one side. It's not like only horizontally is the terrible accuracy while not scoping. 

Also, no, I'm not exaggerating anything, I've made it clear all these drawbacks are relatively minor, I just think there's too many total drawbacks, not that any of them are big ones.

As I said, I wish Zarr worked like Euphona does. Just because it works the same as Stradavar doesn't mean Stradavar is the better method for Zarr to work. Zarr can't even switch modes directly after shooting it, try shooting the explosive mode and immediately pressing alt fire. It doesn't. Thankfully it can swap while reloading, as it didn't used to, but it's still a clunky system, that I'd happily trade for the shotgun just firing on alt fire.

Also.. sigh, you're also wrong about the bullet having any innate punch through or whatever either. You're probably confused, because you're modding for multishot as any secondary is, which does mean multiple bullets and hitting multiple things, without modding for it you don't and won't hit a target behind the first one. Well, there's no point in arguing any more. I'd already fully gotten my case out there in the OP, and you don't care about reason.

 

First of all that picture is horribly blurry, I might as well take my glasses off because I can't see a thing in that.

That's the first time in this entire thread you've explained what you mean when you say "accuracy", every previous time you've said it you've explained bullet drop, which you DID exaggerate.

Now as for your problem with the accuracy, I'm pretty sure that's something unique to you. Every shot I've made with the Euphona has been dead on with the crosshair with no deviation apart from bullet drop.

And no I'm not wrong about innate punch through because I NEVER SAID IT HAS INNATE PUNCH THROUGH. Perhaps read what I say instead of interpreting what you want me to be saying to further your own rhetoric.

[Fari]

4 minutes ago, Klavinmour said:

First of all that picture is horribly blurry, I might as well take my glasses off because I can't see a thing in that.

That's the first time in this entire thread you've explained what you mean when you say "accuracy", every previous time you've said it you've explained bullet drop, which you DID exaggerate.

Now as for your problem with the accuracy, I'm pretty sure that's something unique to you. Every shot I've made with the Euphona has been dead on with the crosshair with no deviation apart from bullet drop.

And no I'm not wrong about innate punch through because I NEVER SAID IT HAS INNATE PUNCH THROUGH. Perhaps read what I say instead of interpreting what you want me to be saying to further your own rhetoric.

My dude... what do you *think* accuracy means? The accuracy stat of the gun, how bullets spread, all that. Of course it didn't mean the bullet drop that's addressed separately.

If you want better res, fire the dang gun yourself. I've already seen multiple threads elsewhere complaining about the non scoped accuracy, which is what led me to test it myself. This is not a personal issue, how the heck would you even try to explain a gun's accuracy being different for different people? What, only people with good computers have their bullets miss? It's not like it has any mods equipped on it to do that.

I said "or whatever" for a reason, because I have no clue what the heck you're trying to say. Whether you meant the multishot or something else. You're the one who's interpreting what I say as you like. And you're wrong again. No matter what you meant about it, it doesn't hit multiple things unless you have multishot mods on, as multishot mods do. For that matter, the reason you think it's accurate is probably multishot too. Because again, at least one bullet is likely to be on point, that doesn't change losing half or a third of your damage.

Edited March 1, 2017 by NearoC

[HolidayPi3]

5 hours ago, Klavinmour said:

I almost exclusively fire the weapon without zooming in, I often hate "aim down sights" in Warframe, and only ever use it in cases where I'm firing at something roughly 70-100m away.

...

Now as for your problem with the accuracy, I'm pretty sure that's something unique to you. Every shot I've made with the Euphona has been dead on with the crosshair with no deviation apart from bullet drop.

I suck at using the quote feature so I took your statement about not using sights and smooshed it into this quote.

I can see where Nearo is coming from in regards to accuracy. This is the deviation I experience when I shoot from the hip (this is a single shot - look for the green slugs):

The following questions are more for my curiosity than anything else:

How do you manage when using Critical Delay? The Euphona's fire rate is... pretty slow. Wiki states 1.5 rounds per second, but I'm not home to check. Even with Lethal Torrent, I'm constantly pushing the maximum fire rate on this gun when switching from target to target. Same with the VHek. Could be a playstyle thing from when I used to Conclave a lot.

Also, given its projectile nature and how punch through is really wonky when interacting with projectiles, how do you manage multi-targeting? 

Edited March 1, 2017 by HolidayPi3
Grammars

[DarcnyssWolfe]

Came for the topic, stayed for the comments

[hukurokuju5]

strong damage

meh usability

mod conflict with the firemode that you dont mod for is less than ideal. almost defeats the purpose of there being 2 fire modes

[Klavinmour]

8 hours ago, HolidayPi3 said:

I suck at using the quote feature so I took your statement about not using sights and smooshed it into this quote.

I can see where Nearo is coming from in regards to accuracy. This is the deviation I experience when I shoot from the hip (this is a single shot - look for the green slugs):

The following questions are more for my curiosity than anything else:

How do you manage when using Critical Delay? The Euphona's fire rate is... pretty slow. Wiki states 1.5 rounds per second, but I'm not home to check. Even with Lethal Torrent, I'm constantly pushing the maximum fire rate on this gun when switching from target to target. Same with the VHek. Could be a playstyle thing from when I used to Conclave a lot.

Also, given its projectile nature and how punch through is really wonky when interacting with projectiles, how do you manage multi-targeting? 

I manage fine with Critical Delay, like I said before fire rate seems to have very little effect on the weapon.
Somewhat like with the Tigris family, how changing the fire rate ultimately does nothing.

Multiple targets I've had no issues with, if two targets are sitting next to each other the main fire has a projectile big enough to hit multiple close targets, and at close range even without the crit alt fire still packs a punch enough to kill a crowd of enemies.